Is the creation and universe friendly towards us?

I think that the reason many of us cannot get to this place of gratitude is because of a lack of forgiveness, including forgiveness of God for making suffering a type of necessity in what it means to be alive, and to also have the opportunity to experience the joy and the gratitude on the other side of the heartache and the ordeal..

Some of us wish to rage against the unfairness of it all and if there's a God to lay it all at his feet, while revelling in what we might presume to be a righteous anger and indignation; some, including one poster above even hoping to have the opportunity to whip God and to see Him punished for what's been done.

It's an impulse to outrage and violence which negates and precludes the possibility of gratitude, justified by the notion that it's not fair and furthermore that someone must be held to account. The debt of suffering and violence must be repaid in full. There must be justice for all the suffering of all the vagaries and the vicissitudes of life, because without authentic justice, the possibility for humor and joyfulness and creative play, is lost and terminates in some insult that's lost to us in the fog of time and history.

To have true forgiveness, which also forgives our selves, we have to do the work of suffering and heartache where that work isn't an end unto itself, but the beginning of a liberation where the only way out, is through.

Is this not what the model of Christianity as an arrow of authentic leadership looks like, and what it points to?

Here's a very interesting talk, imho, about the idea of forgiveness, by an old acquaintance of mine by the name of Bruce Sanguin.

www.unityofvancouver.org...

and how it relates to gratitude for the free gift that only requires us to show up, and which meets us on the road more than half way there to lead us onward through the ordeal of our suffering or our sympathetic suffering for the sorrows and despair of others, and pointing a way to the possibility of something lost, recovered in the space of a radical, transformative forgiveness.

By relegating it to the status of a mere belief or religious conception misses the point and for many it's a sentiment that let's them off the hook from having to do the hard work and heavy lifting involved in true forgiveness to recover their joy and their gratitude for everything and the whole bounty of life that's also available, where it could be said that "the more that sorrow and suffering has carved into our being, the more joy we can contain" (Gibran).

Few of us are up for the challenge, but for those of us with the courage to go through it, there's something awaiting us on the other side of the ordeal, wherefrom immense gratitude becomes our reaction and response, no matter the sorrow, suffering, heartache, grief and loss.

At some level, it's the height of mental health and well being where it may be said that "all neurosis is a substitute for a legitimate suffering" (Carl Jung).

originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
..many would say that it certainly is not at all friendly, as they type away from the comfort of the chair they sit in...

Other's, perhaps to avoid the implications of a friendly universe in favor of the life we experience, would say that it's utterly indifferent and without any direction or intent whereby our existence is a byproduct of a grand fluke or mere happenstance and just a blip, nothing more.

Great thread and great OP. Very nicely done. Lots of good questions.

The idea of a "friendly" or "unfriendly" Universe is a very anthropomorphic way of thinking. Human beings are meaning machines. We attribute meaning to every one of our experiences. We attribute meaning to our pet behaviors. We attribute meaning to shapes in clouds. We attribute meaning to everything.

I think the Universe as far as I can tell is completely indifferent to us. Nature is relentless in its loyalty in carrying out the laws of physics exactly as it is supposed to do. Every time I drop something it hits the ground. If this behavior is friendly or unfriendly it just seems to me to be exactly the same every time.

originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
What this line of thought and questioning raises, for me, is the idea of significance and meaning or purpose and an original intent where from our existence and experience is meaningful and significant.

It is of any significance that we are here now and that there is this something rather than nothing or a something that included us or within which we are a part?

This is a very interesting line of thinking and questioning. Is there a purpose to our existence may be in a class of unaswerable questions. Unanswerable questions is why we have religion. Some people are so uncomfortable with the idea of unaswerable questions they prefer superstitious delusions over the discomfort of not-knowing.

Consider the following idea when it comes to meaning or purpose of our existence. Assume each of us, our life experiences, is like a drop of water in giant ocean making up God's mind. Here I'm using God to mean an abstraction of all of existence or the pantheistic definition of God. So in terms of a totality, a complete semantic oneness, maybe our life has meaning in the following sense. Assume the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics and there exists and infinite number of space-time dimensions where each possible choice you could make exists and is lived out. Then this one life you are participating in now is just one thread of huge number of space-time dimensions realizing every possibility. Then in terms of you as a unique person, with the many worlds actually existing in some giant over Big-Universe, then God's omnipotence is realized by experiencing every possible quantum outcome.

Although every possible choice would be realized in some alternate dimension, I think there is value judgment we make over our choices and results that serves a higher purpose than just experience interpolation. I will try to touch on this again in response to more below.

originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
Can an entirely disinterested and impersonal viewpoint be taken in talking about evolution that doesn't consider the inextricable implications of the personal experience of being alive? And can the human being be considered as just another thing, nothing more?

We are more than just a thing. We are made of the very stuff we are experiencing. Like two mirror facing each other, what we experience as meaning is a reflection of something deeper in the existence of the Universe. And keeping with my previous comments and the idea of a pantheistic type God, maybe what we are is God's way of experiencing the thrill of having limitations by sharing our experiences of joys, frustrations, and agony. An omnipotent God "knows" everything. So maybe our life is just a piece of information in God's omnipotent experience.

But not just any piece of information. An important piece of information that must be present or God's mind would not be complete.

originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
Isn't there something about the generally prevailing "scientific" viewpoint that rings hollow, facile, and disingenuous, particularly in light of ideas like fine tuning, monistic idealism (consciousness, not matter is primary), and the self aware universe?

There's probably an equal amount of evidence for either interpretation.

I'm not sure I would characterize the scientific viewpoint has bing hallow or disingenuous. There is no question within our bodies the laws of physics carry on as usual.

The idea that we have consciousness could be just delusion. Who we are is not the thoughts we experience. Who we are is that which gives rise to our thoughts. And most of that comes from outside of our brains and exists in the Universe. Our thoughts are many times triggered by everything outside of our mind. There is more to "mind" than just what happens inside the brain wall. Maybe without the triggers our mind would not work. And then were does the identity of our mind exist at this point. Our mind is nothing without its triggers.

originally posted by:
AnkhMorpork

Are we not on the cusp of a new scientific paradigm where the answer to the question of - Is the creation and universe friendly towards us? is a clear and decisive - YES, however uncomfortable it might make the atheist bias in science, feel?

What would be the implications to the answer of a clear YES?

I see no evidence to suggest we are on the cusp of a new paradigm when it comes to these unaswerable questions.

There is not an atheist bias in science. I think you misunderstand atheism and science. The problem we have as human beings is through the centuries superstitions have been wildly rampant and in many times hurtful to society. Science is our best tool and methodology in fighting fearful superstitious and discover what ways of thinking are more representative of the truth. Since there is no evidence for God, many people just do not accept the idea of God as being real. Many scientists are fact based in their thinking. The general principle is if there is no evidence for something it doesn't exist by definition. Or, if there is no evidence for something, then it only exists in our imaginations.

So I don't see the principle of the only things that are real must be part of our experiences going away. So what are you suggesting is going to change in your new paradigm? I doubt scientists are going to start taking superstitious points of view.

originally posted by:
AnkhMorpork
What does that look like and what does it mean or signify, if it's not nothing at all?

It means NOTHING that it means nothing. It is YOU who is making it mean something that if it means nothing.

Since there is an equal amount of evidence for either interpretation, and it also means nothing that it means nothing, then a person might as well choose for all of existence to mean something. Choosing to have faith in god is a choice not a decision. If it were a decision there would be plenty of evidence in existence to make it a no brainer.

originally posted by:
AnkhMorpork
This is where it starts to get interesting, imho, what happens when we start to explore that territory yet without losing for a moment the fundamental curiosity and discipline at the heart of scientific inquiry.

There are 7.5 billion people on this planet. Every possible thing has been studied to the Nth degree. In terms of understanding how the Universe the current standard model in physics is accurate and complete. Other than strange quasars spewing unimaginable amounts of energy which is so rare it's practically non-existent, we pretty much know everything there is to know about what nature is going to do with us and to us in our lifetimes.

The level of superstition about nature in this country is really quite stunning. It's really just breathtaking to me how incredibly consistent nature is about the laws of physics. You simply do not see God walking about us wearing white robes and a beard.

originally posted by:
AnkhMorpork
I think there's a whole framework of valid hypotheses that can be considered with the understanding that our own present moment experience contains imbedded within it, an original intent or in other words that it was meant to be and that there is a reason why I can type this and you read it now.

Yes, there is some really strange going on with our minds experiencing the very substance we are made of. We are nature's way of experiencing itself. What that experience means is extremely subjective.

originally posted by:
AnkhMorpork
I think that there's a whole set of logical principals which arise from this consideration, involving things like generosity and kindness and love, and that's interesting to me, what I would call a rational basis for "faith" as a reasonable cause for hope and optimism in the face of a world gone mad due in no small part to bad training involved in the whole materialist monist mindset and worldview and paradigm, which is falling apart at the seems.

It is probably not possible to prove the Universe has some higher meaning or purpose. But consider the the reflection of two opposing mirrors again.

skullsinthestars.files.wordpress.com...

If how each of us experiences the Universe can be categorized as bliss versus agony, then assuming the reflection of meaning travels in both directions, then maybe the things we experience that give us bliss and joys are the preferred experiences of a higher order abstraction of information. Maybe the ultimate purpose of our lives is not only for us to experience bliss and joy but also to help everyone else experience bliss and joy because in doing this we might achieve some higher purpose with unforeseen benefits in the downstream reflection of time.

Who knows maybe the result will be someone in the pool of 7.5 billion people will cure cancer, end world hunger, solve world peace, create a faster than light drive, build an anti-gravity platform, clean up the environment, invent something new that is just as cool as the Internet.

originally posted by:
AnkhMorpork
It's imperative that we consider this "alternative" (soon going mainstream) viewpoint and paradigm and consider it's implications right down to our own mutually enlightened responsibilities to God and to our fellow man and to ourselves, and how we relate at all levels, of only in order so that we might be truly happy and back in congruent alignment with the heart of it all, perhaps not unlike the consideration of very wise and knowledgeable ancient ancient people from a long lost golden age of mankind where the "kingdom of heaven" could be likened to a man, a storekeeper, who brings forth from his storehouse of treasure, treasures that are both very old and very new.

People are going to label you a communist with your ideals. There are people in power and people who are not. The people in power are not interested in helping people without power. The people in power only respect those who steal better than they do. If you can steal power and wealth away from ultra rich people then you are the one who is powerful. Remember what the rich and powerful people are. They are the best at stealing and accumulating wealth as well as preventing other people from stealing it back!

originally posted by:
AnkhMorpork
And for the stoic and impersonal, atheistic scientific, materialist monist viewpoint, you'll have to admit that you can't avoid it as a possibility ie: that the whole "world" is friendly towards us, and hey doesn't the physical evidence not point a rather sturdy finger in that direction..?

Again, as I've stated, as far as I can tell, nature is indifferent to us. Hurricanes, earthquakes, and tsunamis do not seem to have a mind.

originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: AnkhMorpork

I just want you to know I think there is much wisdom in what you have to say, overall. I particularly enjoyed this thought

The flaw, if there is one, is in our thinking and the reality tunnel we use to try to protect ourselves from an experience of absolute novelty and unfathomable generosity and love.

I believe the flaw is indeed generally in our thinking too. That said much of this goes beyond our reason and comprehension, at least mine anyway, for now....

It's what I call an ultra-reasonable and supra-rational leap of faith or a quantum jump from a singular presupposition which revolves around an inward experience and the unique qualia of one's own consciousness, which is where the only real knowledge can reside.

No we can't get there from where we were at.

And it's only immensely humorous, in hindsight.

We are also faced with the "predicament" (either a good one, or a bad one depending on how we react and respond) that to be alive is to be attached to an outcome, and that the human being is actually a wellspring of desire.

So it gets even funnier, if such a thing were possible, or, even more inaccessible in our willful ignorance and blindness to "the absurd good news".

Thankfully, what we resist, only persists (Carl Jung) and hey didn't it only require faith the size of a tiny seed or even a mere "whim"? in response to the invitation.

Again it all comes back to an essential idea of justice and fairness, and an imbalance in the debt equation however it might be expressed.

But if we can accept that life isn't always fair, and that to the degree that is possible Justice has been served in a model of suffering, is there not a new day and a new sun on the other side of the ordeal that's capable of offering us consolation and the opportunity to have our joy and our mirth and the capacity for creative play restored even in the twinkling of an eye..?

The invitation to consider everything from a totally different and wholly inclusive framework in intimate, participatory sharing, must be compelling and heavy handed enough to be uncompromising. It is a strong hand and arm that's capable of lifting us out of our misery and restoring our own sense of humor, and love and the opportunity and possibility to experience a timeless and spaceless domain of satisfaction, and of consolation (blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted).

What we need is just a little more courage, a little more willingness and open-mindedness, along with a mere taste or even an inkling of something greater that also resonates with our own innermost heart of hearts where God also lives.

Who among us isn't moved, and cannot be moved?

To turn and be healed, we must turn.

There's really no two ways around it, this strange way of the cross and do we not all have one to bear?

If there's a victory in there somewhere at the heart of it all, I would like to have a part in that, not for the sake of the suffering as much as the shared glory wherein we are so one that we know that he was sent, even as he in turn sends us.

To be chosen and then sent into the world from out of the world, now that's a real opportunity to have some fun even in the midst of a dark world gone mad.

It may even be, in the final analysis, the only reasonable and rational position to take. However high minded it's still imminently practical where the rubber meets the road with torque as a first cause at the heart of things.

Oh how the high and mighty have fallen when the little man appropriates the hard won boon and gift to humanity while laying claim to an inheritance that has clearly been prepared from an original intent or "before the very foundation of the world".

All the treasure was in our own blind spot, and isn't that precisely the place where the domain of increasing self knowledge and awareness would be expected to be found; in an unknown unknown or what we didn't even know or had an awareness of, until we did.

Maybe the new pasture is the real landscape.

God only knows how far all our prior conceptions might have missed the mark, but I have a sneeking suspicion that we can be let in on the degree of our own ignorance when we begin to open up to the novel and the uncertain where it could be said that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and by that I mean an awareness that there's no shielding capable of repelling the truth and the objective reality.

We're defenseless and royally screwed in the best possible way, and if it requires the capacity to suffer to also experience the joy then so be it.


Best regards,

Ankh

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

It may even be, in the final analysis, the only reasonable and rational position to take. However high minded it's still imminently practical where the rubber meets the road with torque as a first cause at the heart of things. Oh how the high and mighty have fallen when the little man appropriates the hard won boon and gift to humanity while laying claim to an inheritance that has clearly been prepared from an original intent or "before the very foundation of the world".

I like how you did that...equating a pre existent christ as a rational position. First one would have to subscribe to christian notion of sin and a human needing redemption to entertain your idea.

said that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and by that I mean an awareness that there's no shielding capable of repelling the truth

God, fear, truth, wisdom does not compute. I thank and trust the bible in showing me the real enemy of reason. It came with Gnosis; I can punch your counterfeit god in the face, having understood the games it played with its adherents. Sociopath.

Thanks for bringing up gratitude - I am grateful for what I am, an aware autonomous being able to laugh at this cruel joke. The sinners are those of the Abrahamic teachings that allow and give their power to the archons that rule this "dark city" .

Wake up and stop feeding these archons.

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and by that I mean an awareness that there's no shielding capable of repelling the truth and the objective reality

The minute you brought fear in as a sign of how we should interact with a god who screwed Job, well you are delusional. Keep suffering so you can hope for a "brighter" spark or a golden age in the afterlife.

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem.

A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. Physicists Samuel L. Braunstein at the University of York, UK, and Arun K. Pati of the Harish-Chandra Research Institute, India, first proved the no-hiding theorem in 2007. Until now, however, the no-hiding theorem has been a purely theoretical concept.


Read more at: phys.org...

phys.org...

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

You misunderstood what I meant by that. I mean defenseless and completely and utterly reliant upon, even at the "mercy" of God.

Right away you assume that you know the meaning of what I was wishing to convey.


It's a type of trusting in and an awe of, and it's humbling and does lead to wisdom.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: AnkhMorpork

In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem.

A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. Physicists Samuel L. Braunstein at the University of York, UK, and Arun K. Pati of the Harish-Chandra Research Institute, India, first proved the no-hiding theorem in 2007. Until now, however, the no-hiding theorem has been a purely theoretical concept.


Read more at: phys.org...

phys.org...

OMG! To be is to be perceived.

Quantum ansible communications.... transluminal connectedness, superdeterminism.

For all we know while the universe may appear to be evolving from a distant past, it might very well be that we have it all backwards and are part of an intelligent subtraction from the absolute, unlimited potential or a manifestation of what can only be thought of in terms of a Godhead. The reason? To make this present reality an actuality in time and history ie: an original intent, in order so that this very experience, along with many others, might be possible ie: to share. (so fear not, little ones, nor let your heart be troubled for it pleased your father in heaven to share his entire kingdom with all his children!).


It's worth some serious consideration for those who will and who are not lacking in imagination or the willingness to explore outside the box territory.

No hiding..

What is Jesus purported to have said in the "heretical" Gnostic Gospel of Thomas - "Behold! The Kingdom of Heaven is spread out upon the Earth but men do not see it!"

We are so blind.

God, help us, to see more clearly, love more dearly, and follow more nearly, day by day, step by step. You are the light of life and we are also the light of the world and the salt of the earth.

I like the valuation that Christianity places on the otherwise unworthy. The irony and the love and mercy is very great, even enough to bring a sinner to tears first in repentance and a change of mind and heart, and then to tears of absolute hilarity at what a low valuation we'd given ourselves by comparison.

So uplifting...