Is bitcoin the way to kill the banks?

originally posted by: Slickinfinity
Fiat is Keynesian bitcoin is not and that little difference tells me btc is the more fair currency for the future that will replace centralized banking in the next 25 years or less.

Why? It works the same way as anything else, people only pay what they think something is worth, and bitcoin is just a means of conveyance.

a reply to: JinMI

Not false at all. There is no chargebacks or payment protection on bitcoin. The only remedy is through courts which time consuming and potentially expensive. You have far less security paying by but coin than through a bank.

I can make a payment via my bank that is faster, more secure and cheaper (as in free) than bitcoin for almost any transaction to a company or person.

As governments generally level taxes in their own currency the people and companies need access to that currrency. Why would they wish to use a payment method that is less efficient and add in additional exchange costs?

originally posted by: Slickinfinity
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Fiat is Keynesian bitcoin is not and that little difference tells me btc is the more fair currency for the future that will replace centralized banking in the next 25 years or less.

Bitcoin neither is or isn't Keynesian.

Keynesian isn't a description of a monetary system or currency.

This is quite an insightful article that explains why Bitcoin and their ilk will not replace money and "kill the banks". It's also in plain English! Hope it adds to the discussion on this thread.

FT article

Some argue this is precisely what will prevent Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies from taking over. Fluctuations in demand for Bitcoin and its competitors, in the face of relatively fixed supply, cause wild swings in the price.

Central banks could simply step in and offer their own digital currency, to pre-empt a Bitcoin takeover. There is such a thing already, of course. It’s what happens whenever central banks buy assets by creating bank reserves. It’s all just digital entries on a spreadsheet.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Our current economy is keynesian and bitcoin definitely is not.
Are you against bitcoin or just don't see it as something the banks are worrying about?
I am disgusted by our current government and the impact centralized banking has made on earths population and IMO its time for a change.

If government wants your fiat for any reason they see fit weather just or unjust they can take your money and freeze all your accounts.

They can't touch my btc and if I use a privacy coin they'll have no way to trace or see my balance or anything. I have complete control over my money and I think that's my right.

originally posted by: Slickinfinity
a reply to: ScepticScot

Our current economy is keynesian and bitcoin definitely is not.
Are you against bitcoin or just don't see it as something the banks are worrying about?
I am disgusted by our current government and the impact centralized banking has made on earths population and IMO its time for a change.

If government wants your fiat for any reason they see fit weather just or unjust they can take your money and freeze all your accounts.

They can't touch my btc and if I use a privacy coin they'll have no way to trace or see my balance or anything. I have complete control over my money and I think that's my right.

Keynesian is a school of economics (actually multiple schools of economics most of which have little to do with Keynes.)

The economy isn't Keynesian any more than its Monetarist, Austrian or institutionalist.

In terms of your individual assets government has the same rights and restrictions over bitcoin as it does over any other asset you own.

There are steps you can take to make bitcoin assets difficult (but not impossible) to trace, but that applies to conventional financial assets as well.

You are certainly free to dislike central banks, however bitcoin isn't really any threat to them.

What the majority of people want from a currency is ease of use, security and stability. For most transactions conventional currency is far superior to crypto. I doubt many people care one way or the other about the mechanics of how it is created or decentralisation.

a reply to: paraphi

I've read lots of similar articles but respectfully disagree and I really think the concept of a currency not bound by a central bank is the best thing for the future especially as we move towards total automation. Beyond blockchain things like IOTA and its tangle will change the face of economics for the betterment of the many over the few.
Central banks are losing power and are less popular than some diseases.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Christine Lagarde disagrees with you and I heard her say its something they're very concerned about especially when it hits the trillion dollar market cap.

I own privacy coins so there's no currently known way to trace or track. Monero is 100% untraceable, they can't get it if they wanted it and even if they arrest you I'd have to give it up voluntarily. Could you imagine their nightmare if a billion people just went and put all their money in a place they can't confiscate it? Even at just 10% of the population could totally devastate their system.

I think more people care than you realize and if thousands and of people we're wiling to occupy wall street and protest economic inequality then I bet there's millions who will simply buy crypocurrency because they're losing faith or lost faith in the system.
If it became illegal it would not stop crypocurrency and as this nee technology grows it is getting easier to use.

Did you know some crypocurrencies already have their own debit cards?

In the end I see centralized banks caving in and making concessions they never would have made because btc gave us leverage.
I'm uncertain exactly what the future holds and everything I've said is just my opinion based on whst I know but I'm betting heavy that in the years to come its only going to grow.

a reply to: ScepticScot

How are you sending money to another country with no fees?

If someone steals your physical items and all you can say is they took it wouldn't that be a lengthy hassle too?

If you can prove who took your items you can file charges and the same goes for btc. People are in jail right now because of fraudulent exchanges like mtgox and btce taking peoples crypocurrency.

My bank charges me money just to have an account and swift fee is over 25$ to tranfer.
Paying bills online is free and that's it.

Blockchain is new and once perfected and things like IOTA take off which BTW has zero fees we will start to see real work change thanks to bitcoins trail blazing.

a reply to: Slickinfinity

Can send sterling to another sterling account for free (up to about £20k limit I think). If I wanted to pay in another currency I would be charged.

If I pay in bitcoin would pay fee on transaction. If some wants to convert bitcoin to another currency they would also be charged again (plus highly volatile exchange rate).

Bitcoin would only work as standardised way of making international payments if it is also widely accepted domesticly. As it is markedly inferior for use in day to day domestic transactions this is extremely unlikely to happen.

Don't get me wrong I have said in pretty much all my posts that there are uses for bitcoin or similar where it will be cheaper or more efficient. However these are a small minority of transactions that take place for the majority of people.

In order for a crypto currency to reach the same level of day to day usage there would need to be adoption of it on a wide scale by banks or organisations very much like banks set up to facilitate it. In which case there inevitably would be charges and costs just like now.

There are also in my view a number of fundamental flaws with the set up of bitcoin in order for it to work as a wide spread currency (no lender of last resort, built in deflation, ease of creating multiple currencies, etc).

Someone might come up with a crypto that does have enough advantages to become widespread, but it seems extremely unlikely.

a reply to: Slickinfinity

Can you link to what Lagarde said? If it the BOE speech you are refering to read what she actually said, not how it was reported.

If debit cards or similar are issued then there has to be an organisation to issue it. You are basically swapping one bank for another ( only with a crypto bank a lot less security).

Are there any debit cards that are in use that pay directly in a crypto currency?

originally posted by: Slickinfinity
Christine Lagarde disagrees with you and I heard her say its something they're very concerned about especially when it hits the trillion dollar market cap.

The corrupt Lagarde from the IMF thinking that Bitcoin and co has a future means there's money and opportunity for banks and bankers. Just another money spinner.

Lagrade on cryptocurrencies

The managing director of the International Monetary Fund, or IMF, talked up the potential of virtual currencies to supplant traditional monies in coming decades on Friday.

I'll believe Bitcoin et al has a future when I can buy a pint in my local pub. Unfortunately, as the "price" of a Bitcoin is subject to massive speculative buying, it's impossible to pin a value that gives any confidence in anything other than risky, or shady transactions.

People just trade in Bitcoins, like they trade in chickens, or gold. They speculate that the price will go up and make them money. Money which they can then use to buy a drink in a pub.

So what we exchange one overlord for another? I understand the trend with bitcoin, but no matter what you always narrow down to a select few pulling strings

a reply to: ScepticScot

First off thank you for taking the time to discuss these things rationally and I have noted a few good points you have made. Thank to Parphi for linking some of what Lagarde said too.

You can buy a pint in some bars now actually and even order pizza plus the list is growing. It's new so I know it will take time and when making small purchases with crypto I use cois that have a very small or no transaction fee like litecoin or Iota which has no fees to use.
IOTA is one to really look at imo as it's the next generation of crypto not even on a blockchain.

Tenx is a crypto based debit card that you load with crypto and can spend in the countries it's currently being marketed in. Australia I know is one major place Tenx is being used and I'm assuming that will only grow too.
If banks decide to embrace crypto I'll honesty make more than if they didn't because I hold lots of XRP or ripple as the company is called and they want to get banks using their tech. Some are testing it now and if it does what I think it will things like swift transfers and sending money overseas will become a lot cheaper. Ripple can even save banks 60% on costs from what their white paper says.

The flaws I see in btc are it can be slow, and has a higher transaction fee than other crypto. I'm also not happy about the recent hard fork in the code which created 2 new forms of btc.
Imo all those flaws are the reason we now have so many other altcoin building off of what btc started.
Japan has so many places that take crypto and look to them in 2 years to see what real benefits it has.

Would you agree though if millions decided to protest by buying crypto and withdrawing from banks that the banks would be worried?
It is volatile but anyone who had stocks in 2008 probably says the same thing about the economy we live with now.
If you owned bitcoin for a while you are probably heavy in the profits. If you buy btc now and we go by it's 8 year trend you're going to profit. Btc at 100k by 2025 is my and others price prediction.

IBM, SBI banks, Bosco, VW, Omise, and many other big names are getting in on blockchain.

a reply to: Slickinfinity

Tenx provides an instant FX transfer between crypto and the local currency. It is not actually paying for stuff in crypto. It is a good way of making crypto easier to spend but is not challenging conventional currencies as it is using them.

To me there are 3 separate issues with crypto that tend to get lumped together. ( By both sceptics and fans).

First is the blockchain. I can see this developing further and more uses being made of it. I don't think it will be as game changing as some make out as I am not convinced that the advantages outweighed the disadvantages for the majority of uses.

Second is its use as a payment method. Again while I see some uses to me they are to specialised for it to become widespread. For 99% of typical transactions a conventional currency is going to be more convenient.

Finally as an investment. While it does have a value as a payment method, the rapid increase in value just screams out bubble. We might not be near the top of the bubble yet but at some point I suspect a lot of people will get stung. I would be extremely happy if I had bought bitcoin a few years back but individuals gain does not make it any less a bubble.

In developed nations the currency that most people use will be the one they are taxed in. If sufficient people wanted a move to a crypto as the national currency then it may be changed by democratic means but not by people adopting the currency. ( As an aside I think using crypto as a national currency is a terrible idea, but that's a different argument).

I don't think crypto will go away completely but there simply too many obstacles for it to become the dominant method of payment.


ETA- while I am obviously a bit sceptical about crypto I do find then interesting so appreciate the points you have raised as well.

a reply to: Slickinfinity

You can't stop people from owning or trading it, but you *can* stop people from converting it into cash (the country's currency) as China has demonstrated.

If you can't convert to cash in most places, I don't think it would get big enough to make a difference.

www.forbes.com... um=email&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=20171023&utm_campaign=sprinklrForbesInvestorTwitter&utm_content=1125431648#338e2ee337ac

people are going to be real bummed they didn't get in now when 1 bitcoin costs 50,000 in a couple years.

a reply to: nOraKat

Even that is being bypassed as decentralized exchanges are being created. I just got money from a bitcoin atm today and sites like localbitcoin sell btc peer to peer. There's lots of ways to get crypocurrency converted to fiat.
If lots of governments did outlaw it then the price would drop but would recover after the market just goes further underground.
Even though a lot of governments are against bitcoin there's a few who are embracing it so there's always a place to sell it.

Not a chance, cryptocurrency maybe, but deeper planning and development is needed.

THe issue with BTC is,

it was too mysterious, so either governments, chip manufacturers or even both + a 3rd party created it, not to mention the issue of there being a limited number of coins, which means, large holders of BTC can group together, set up large Buy and Sell walls in exchanges to sway the price.

RIght now, the price imo is inflated.

Bitcoin is also suffering internal disorder, these forks are not anything but extra money grabs from community disagreements.

Until you can mine cryptocurrency on ANY DEVICE and EVERYONE can mine and make a profit from it, it's a centralized currency, regardless of how it is.

It USED to be decentralized, but once the difficulty got too high for average folks to mine due to the power + lil asic mining power issue, only big names mined the blocks.

It's a joke now that's been turned against the very people who supported it.

It's going to crumble the way the community has been acting over it lately, it's become more about money than the FEDs are about the dollar, if you can't see that, do some research, and I don't mean just read articles, read comments, join IRC channels, LEARN about it.

I've been into cryptocurrency since 2012, I've made some good cash off it, but I won't hold my fiat in it for a prolonged period of time, because I've seen the price flux in such a way, that SHOUTS manipulation.

I'm not saying you can't make money off it, that's the easy part, but to buy and hold into it, is a mistake unless you did so at $250 a BTC and sold now, then you're a millionaire, but ironically are also most likely part of that co-op utilizing the buy / sell walls in exchanges to sway the price for even more arbitrage.

I see bitcoin as the necessary evil to get people into crypto, but also the problem that people will see and want to create a better altcoin as the solution.

That's the competition we need, and honestly, could of been the very reason BTC was created.

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Then you have the issue of being taxes on your capital gain, a man was arrest and sentenced to 2 years for selling 50k - 250k in BTC via localbitcoins in Chicago recently, he sold to FBI like 6 times in a sting.

Interesting, no?

Imagine the taxes on that million you made... I'd be pissed.

a reply to: Slickinfinity

Dont think so, the banksters are not about to stand back and see their power eroded. They will force govts pass laws that keep them with the power and control they have now.

The form of money and its issue and control will not change unless there are huge demonstrations of the public power to the politiicans such that the power of the people overwhelms the death threats of the banksters.