Ancient flying machines? Were they Zeppelins?

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous


How hard would it be for an ancient culture to get access to cow intestines?

Excessively difficult. The only large animal there is the llama. The nearest cow-like animal is on the northern plains of North America. Real cows were in Europe.

I doubt the cow is the only animal on the face of the whole planet that has the right kind of intestine to store hydrogen.

King Salomon's flying machine is described in the Bible.

I think a hot air balloon is a pretty good fit for the description. It's been a while but I did some back-of-the-envelope math about it. They describe how fast it moved in poetic terms, but with concrete enough language that you could try to come up with some real numbers, and I got that based on the claims, it moved something like 35-55mph.

A speed of 35-55mph is pretty reasonable for a balloon. From a little quick Googling, the modern record for a balloon is a "ground speed" of about ~245mph. So the speeds claimed are not at all outlandish or supernatural or a UFO etc.

As far as actually making one goes, the only thing stopping them would have been having the right idea, and the right idea could have come as simply as sitting next to a fire and watching the rising air lift a falling leaf.

There's also the possibility that one culture in one place had colonized much of the world, just like England in the 1800's with its "Sun never sets" empire.

In that case, all Zeppelins might come from the same place. But there would need to be some explanation for them not having traded in livestock.

Wonderful idea but what made the Zeppelins, semi-dirigibles and blimps usable were internal combustion engines. As noted you'd need a fairly sophisticated engineering capacity to build anything like an airship. Just review what the European had to go thru in the 18-19th century to get the few they had.

The other main problem with airships is wind. They are very susceptible to it and need massive shelters to protect them. Look up what they had to build to protect the Hindenburg and how all the latest helium lifted US navy airships were destroyed by the wind.

originally posted by: 11andrew34
King Salomon's flying machine is described in the Bible.

Chapter and verse, please.
AFAIK, the flying machine you're talking about comes from the Kebra Negast, an Ethiopian text written in the 14th Century AD.
Solomon is also described as having a flying "machine" (flying carpet actually) in Islamic myth, though not in the Koran.

I've also read where this is described in Jewish midrashim, in commentary on the Torah, but is considered Jewish folklore, not sacred writings, and also comes from a later period.

Harte

originally posted by: Hanslune
Wonderful idea but what made the Zeppelins, semi-dirigibles and blimps usable were internal combustion engines. As noted you'd need a fairly sophisticated engineering capacity to build anything like an airship. Just review what the European had to go thru in the 18-19th century to get the few they had.

If we're talking about using them to lift big stones, or moving freight, then they don't need engines, because people (or draft animals) on the ground could be pulling them around with ropes.

Just like what people would do if they wanted to pull a boat full of cargo upstream.

But if you want to travel freely in one, that is a solid concern. Hard to control where you go without a propeller.

The other main problem with airships is wind. They are very susceptible to it and need massive shelters to protect them. Look up what they had to build to protect the Hindenburg and how all the latest helium lifted US navy airships were destroyed by the wind.

It seems that Hot Air is starting to win the Hydrogen/Hot Air contest. They can be stored away from the wind better.

A dirigible might have a chance if the 1000 or so bladders that are being held together by the outer wall were taken out and stored individually, like in a cave or something. And then brought out and assembled when the dirigible is to be used.

The Great Pyramid of Ghiza site has a network of underground caves nearby to it.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Hanslune
Wonderful idea but what made the Zeppelins, semi-dirigibles and blimps usable were internal combustion engines. As noted you'd need a fairly sophisticated engineering capacity to build anything like an airship. Just review what the European had to go thru in the 18-19th century to get the few they had.

If we're talking about using them to lift big stones, or moving freight, then they don't need engines, because people (or draft animals) on the ground could be pulling them around with ropes.

Just like what people would do if they wanted to pull a boat full of cargo upstream.

But if you want to travel freely in one, that is a solid concern. Hard to control where you go without a propeller.

The other main problem with airships is wind. They are very susceptible to it and need massive shelters to protect them. Look up what they had to build to protect the Hindenburg and how all the latest helium lifted US navy airships were destroyed by the wind.

It seems that Hot Air is starting to win the Hydrogen/Hot Air contest. They can be stored away from the wind better.

A dirigible might have a chance if the 1000 or so bladders that are being held together by the outer wall were taken out and stored individually, like in a cave or something. And then brought out and assembled when the dirigible is to be used.

The Great Pyramid of Ghiza site has a network of underground caves nearby to it.

Yes if you are talking up and down using hot air that is within the technology of many cultures. Yet the op mentioned zeppelins. As long as they know how to make a glue or sew. The problem is that their is no indication that they did. Even the idea of hot air balloons while 'obvious' was not hit upon until the 18th century (the Chinese had the idea but only used it for sending up signal balloons at night). Sometimes obvious things are not obvious to the people who had to figure them out; like stirrups, black powder or basic sanitation.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

If we're talking about using them to lift big stones, or moving freight, then they don't need engines, because people (or draft animals) on the ground could be pulling them around with ropes.

If you've ever watched parade balloons, you know how chancy that is. Then there's the problem of shouting the instructions to everyone.

If they had balloon technology, why didn't they use it to transport things and improve their lives... and why aren't there any depictions or traditions of this? Other traditions were preserved and technology (weaving patterns, pottery) were preserved.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

If we're talking about using them to lift big stones, or moving freight, then they don't need engines, because people (or draft animals) on the ground could be pulling them around with ropes.

If you've ever watched parade balloons, you know how chancy that is. Then there's the problem of shouting the instructions to everyone.

If they had balloon technology, why didn't they use it to transport things and improve their lives... and why aren't there any depictions or traditions of this? Other traditions were preserved and technology (weaving patterns, pottery) were preserved.

I'm thinking about this in the context of a long lost ice age culture having this tech. Kind of along the lines of Graham Hancock stuff.

Like where the age of the Great Pyramid of Giza is 12+ thousand years old, rather than just 4 or 5 thousand.

Perhaps the very old culture actually did use Zeppelins or hot air balloons to improve their lives. But the technology was lost after things fell apart. It may be remembered vaguely in Vedic texts as the "Vimana" flying machines that were supposed to have been operated by the gods.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

It takes a fully modern worldwide society to be able to manufacture a zepplin.
Why can we find a campsite used once in the wilderness 15,000 years ago, yet not one trace of the worldwide society required to make a zepplin.
Dont forget germany had worldwide possesions and hydroelectric system that was the first to generate 3 phase AC, which is a requirement for a true modern world, thank you nicola telsa.
This conversation would not be possible without 3p power.

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

It takes a fully modern worldwide society to be able to manufacture a zepplin.
Why can we find a campsite used once in the wilderness 15,000 years ago, yet not one trace of the worldwide society required to make a zepplin.
Dont forget germany had worldwide possesions and hydroelectric system that was the first to generate 3 phase AC, which is a requirement for a true modern world, thank you nicola telsa.
This conversation would not be possible without 3p power.

As noted earlier Zeppelins were possible because of internal combustion engines. Hot air balloons would not have been of great value to a hunter-gather culture - cool perhaps.

a reply to: Hanslune

Yes, but you could not power the industrial base needed to manufacture the internal combustion engine without three phase AC power, which in and of itself requires a previously existing industrial base, powered by water or steam.
There is a reason the late 19th century saw such major advancements in industry, electrification, without it you cannot make the steels required to produce the tooling needed to make the critical parts that make an interal combustion engine possible.
Then there is the question of what coal did they use to make the vast quantities of iron based products used to build such a thing as a dirigible.
The great industrialized societies of the 18th-21st centuries, from Britain to Germany to the US to Japan, Korea and China all have one thing common; iron ore and coal in close proximity to each other.
The harvesting of both resources leaves indelible scars on the landscape.

This sort of nonsense really gets my goat, because it show just how little people know about what it takes to make the world around them tick.

Your side of the conversation gets my goat, because you're thinking so far inside the box.

All you need for the essential technology of lifting gas powered flight is:

1) Hydrogen.

2) Something that can hold hydrogen (like animal intestines.)

We needn't concern ourselves with superfluous details like the iron outer wall. It might be a non-rigid dirigible or something like that.

Hydrogen production doesn't require three phase power. It's one of the simplest electro-chemical reactions out there.

For that matter, it also doesn't need powered flight. It would still be useful, even if it were tethered to the ground at all times. In fact, it would still be useful even if it had to be taken down and disassembled everytime the wind started to blow.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous


Hydrogen production doesn't require three phase power. It's one of the simplest electro-chemical reactions out there.

Yes it is easy for us but no one as far as we know developed the technique until the Europeans did - fairly recently

Okay using materials available to the Nazca Indians describe how they would create enough hydrogen gas to lift same 200 kg of useful weight.

These outline the four methods I am aware to make hydrogen gas.

www.thoughtco.com...

a reply to: Scott Creighton

just for amusement :

what volume of hot air [ at what temperature ] is required to lift 1kg payload ????

to be kind - i will ignore atmospheric pressure and permit answers based on idea gas laws [ not real world dynamics ]

a reply to: ignorant_ape

Why let real world physics get in the way.
Things like,, weight of the rigging and envelope and how does that affect the volume and amount of heat required to lift object+rigging+envelope.

Apparently 1000 cubic feet of hydrogen will lift 71 pounds. Sorry I couldn't find it in metric units.

www.airships.net...


So basically a cube 10 feet tall, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long will lift a small child if it is made from light enough materials itself.