Germany requests classified briefing on F-15 and F-18

Germany has sent a letter to Boeing requesting a classified briefing on the F-15 and F-18E/F, having identified them as potential replacements for their Tornado aircraft. The briefing will take place in mid-November, and the decision to replace the Tornado will take place in 2018. The briefing follows a similar briefing on the F-35 in July.

Germany announced plans to build a new aircraft with France, but it won't be ready by 2025, which is when the Tornado will start being phased out of service. Sources are indicating that their plan is to buy an existing platform to replace the Tornado, and the new fighter they will develop with France will replace their Typhoons at a later date.

BERLIN • Germany has asked the U.S. military for classified data on two Boeing fighter jets as it looks to replace its aging Tornado warplanes, giving a potential boost to the U.S. company locked in a trade dispute with Canada and Britain.

A letter sent by the German defense ministry's planning division, reviewed by Reuters, said it had identified Boeing's F-15 and F/A-18E/F fighters as potential candidates to replace the Tornado jets, which entered service in 1981. Both fighters are made in St. Louis.

A classified briefing is expected to take place in mid-November, following a similar briefing provided by U.S. officials about the Lockheed Martin Corp. F-35 fighter jet in July.

www.stltoday.com...

So what do you think happens at this meeting?
Is it like a used car salesman talking up how great these planes are and for a few extra bucks they can get an extended warranty?

Asking for classified data and all? I know they are our allies.

And in all seriousness, lets say they do purchase 10 F-15's, How long do you think it would take for their best pilots to become proficient in the F-15 or 18? Are they like cars? brakes on the left gas pedal on the right and a damn steering wheel turns ya only with a few extra buttons to fire missles?

originally posted by: tinner07
So what do you think happens at this meeting?
Is it like a used car salesman talking up how great these planes are and for a few extra bucks they can get an extended warranty?

Asking for classified data and all? I know they are our allies.

And in all seriousness, lets say they do purchase 10 F-15's, How long do you think it would take for their best pilots to become proficient in the F-15 or 18? Are they like cars? brakes on the left gas pedal on the right and a damn steering wheel turns ya only with a few extra buttons to fire missles?

Europeans use clutch and gear stick I will never touch a car with automatic transmission.

Question is why Germans do not want F35?

Question is why Germans do not want F35?

The majority of the German people doesnt really care but like social programs much more than expensive military hardware. A sizeable minority thinks military stuff is bad period and is against any military procurement projects on principle.
The majority of German politicans doesnt really care about the state of the armed forces and supports procurement programs only if it generates jobs at home. Buying American is bad, you need to buy European at all cost, even if the hardware you purchase is crap and hopelessly outdated.

About this request for Information, i seriously doubt it will result in the purchase of any American plane. More likley than not, the Tornado will be phased out without a German replacement in favor of a Grand European solution. IE some nation other than Germany will hopefully bomb the poor desert people, because Germans above all else like to feel morally superior.

What they obviously should do is pruchase the F-35B as an Tornado replacement, scrap the ridiculous German-French next gen fighter jet effort and get their Eurofighters up to British Standards asap. Twenty years down the road you replace the Eurofighter with - depending on how things go - either an European UCAV or an US Next Gen fighter jet.
F-35B because in the spirit of European cooperation you could actually deploy them on most if not all European carriers.

a reply to: mightmight

Is F-35 running on Windows?

BTW Europe has its own space program which is not dependent on Russian rocket engines as US is ...

There is some talk (could be pure speculation) that the primary reason to look for an interim replacement is the NATO nuclear sharing arrangement. Without the Tornados they don't have any platform to carry the B61 nuclear bombs, as the Eurofighter does not have this capability. That is pretty much why they still keep them around.

originally posted by: moebius
There is some talk (could be pure speculation) that the primary reason to look for an interim replacement is the NATO nuclear sharing arrangement. Without the Tornados they don't have any platform to carry the B61 nuclear bombs, as the Eurofighter does not have this capability. That is pretty much why they still keep them around.

The idea that the Luftwaffe should purchase a Tornado replacement because of the nuclear capability is a non starter.
The nuclear sharing arrangement and more importantely the 20 or so B61 nuclear bombs sotred at Büchel AB are highly unpopular in Germany. There is wide spread political support to get rid of them.
In fact, too many politicans might be inclined to torpedo any replacement effort because of the nuclear capability instead of supporting the purchase because of it...

The Tornados are kept around for two reasons:
Tornade Recce is innocent in the eyes of German politicans. Reconnaissance has never hurt anyone. So much less risky to deploy an unarmed recon jet than actually drop bombs on someone.
And the same is true for the Tornado ECR. SEAD is far less... messy than dropping bombs. If there is no way around it and they to deploy combat aircraft, its so much better to shoot HARMs at radars than to drop bombs at bridges...
As for German Tornados IDS - better to pretend they dont exist, upgrade them very slowly and dont purchase the neccessary ordnance. Some ally might actually demand to use them. Cant have that.
Same is true for the German Eurofighter.

Hi Guys,

In my eye the Germans will look at the cost of the F35, F18, F15 and then report the costs to the people. The German Tornado went though a MLU and should be ok to the mid 2020's.

But when you tell them the costs of the "new" buys, buying into the Centurion upgrade and maybe a easier sell.

Link

www.baesystems.com...

Kind regards

RAB

originally posted by: mightmight

originally posted by: moebius
There is some talk (could be pure speculation) that the primary reason to look for an interim replacement is the NATO nuclear sharing arrangement. Without the Tornados they don't have any platform to carry the B61 nuclear bombs, as the Eurofighter does not have this capability. That is pretty much why they still keep them around.

The idea that the Luftwaffe should purchase a Tornado replacement because of the nuclear capability is a non starter.
The nuclear sharing arrangement and more importantely the 20 or so B61 nuclear bombs sotred at Büchel AB are highly unpopular in Germany. There is wide spread political support to get rid of them.
In fact, too many politicans might be inclined to torpedo any replacement effort because of the nuclear capability instead of supporting the purchase because of it...

The Tornados are kept around for two reasons:
Tornade Recce is innocent in the eyes of German politicans. Reconnaissance has never hurt anyone. So much less risky to deploy an unarmed recon jet than actually drop bombs on someone.
And the same is true for the Tornado ECR. SEAD is far less... messy than dropping bombs. If there is no way around it and they to deploy combat aircraft, its so much better to shoot HARMs at radars than to drop bombs at bridges...
As for German Tornados IDS - better to pretend they dont exist, upgrade them very slowly and dont purchase the neccessary ordnance. Some ally might actually demand to use them. Cant have that.
Same is true for the German Eurofighter.

A quick search on the net shows that they have 6 fighter wings. Two of them fly Tornados. One with focus on recon and another for NATO tasks...

The German Air Force intends to keep 46 Tornado IDS of JaBoG 33 in service until at least 2025 to ensure Germany's participation in NATO's nuclear sharing concept.

So it is a not a "non starter" at all.

a reply to: moebius


I can't recall the specific development's name-Zaphod58 will know- but the new version of the aircraft delivered nuke is matched with the F-35. (Not by accident, is my guess.....)

While those bombs likely won't be sold, if the SHTF those with F-35s in Europe can become nuclear capable in a matter of weeks.

My guess will be a few F-35s to replace only two squadrons of Tornados. ( After all, it wouldn't do for Germany to remain incapable of nuclear delivery whist others in Europe are fully capable.)

Definitely a 'starter'.

Lets hope Boeing doesn't disclose too much. The Germans nor the French would ever buy American. Those two countries are heavily invested in Airbus. All they want from Boeing is the intel.

History teaches us that working on aerospace projects with the French is a costly and time consuming exercise , why don't they just by more Typhoons ?

As a former F15 crew chief for the 94th, I'll tell that except for the E model, there really isn't much classified info about the Eagle that isn't already known. The avionics are the most classified thing in that jet.

originally posted by: mightmight

originally posted by: moebius
There is some talk (could be pure speculation) that the primary reason to look for an interim replacement is the NATO nuclear sharing arrangement. Without the Tornados they don't have any platform to carry the B61 nuclear bombs, as the Eurofighter does not have this capability. That is pretty much why they still keep them around.

The idea that the Luftwaffe should purchase a Tornado replacement because of the nuclear capability is a non starter.
The nuclear sharing arrangement and more importantely the 20 or so B61 nuclear bombs sotred at Büchel AB are highly unpopular in Germany. There is wide spread political support to get rid of them.
In fact, too many politicans might be inclined to torpedo any replacement effort because of the nuclear capability instead of supporting the purchase because of it...

The Tornados are kept around for two reasons:
Tornade Recce is innocent in the eyes of German politicans. Reconnaissance has never hurt anyone. So much less risky to deploy an unarmed recon jet than actually drop bombs on someone.
And the same is true for the Tornado ECR. SEAD is far less... messy than dropping bombs. If there is no way around it and they to deploy combat aircraft, its so much better to shoot HARMs at radars than to drop bombs at bridges...
As for German Tornados IDS - better to pretend they dont exist, upgrade them very slowly and dont purchase the neccessary ordnance. Some ally might actually demand to use them. Cant have that.
Same is true for the German Eurofighter.

All of these modern European political positions seem to be very pro Russian dressed up with rainbows and unicorns. The Kremlin's efforts look like they are paying off every time you see a policy erode their own defenses.

originally posted by: moebius

The German Air Force intends to keep 46 Tornado IDS of JaBoG 33 in service until at least 2025 to ensure Germany's participation in NATO's nuclear sharing concept.

So it is a not a "non starter" at all.

The intend of the Luftwaffe is not congruent with polticial realities.
This isnt America. For Germans nuclear weapons are just a very bad idea period. The majority people and many politicans actually feel threatened by those nuclear weapons at Büchel. They dont wont to have them, they dont want to use them and they sure as hell dont want to procure a replacement aircraft if the nuclear capability would fade away otherwise.
The Luftwaffe might want something different - personally i think they would be glad to use the funds somewhere else - but it just wont happen. Especially not during the next four years if the Jamaika Coalition goes forward.

Who knows who else the German are seeing - I bet there are talks with France. Things like this always have a political purpose, so perhaps this will be a high profile token to redress the trade imbalance with the States, if it ever happened.

The Germans use tornados in a naval role as well, so wonder if that's significant.

originally posted by: mightmight

originally posted by: moebius
There is some talk (could be pure speculation) that the primary reason to look for an interim replacement is the NATO nuclear sharing arrangement. Without the Tornados they don't have any platform to carry the B61 nuclear bombs, as the Eurofighter does not have this capability. That is pretty much why they still keep them around.

The idea that the Luftwaffe should purchase a Tornado replacement because of the nuclear capability is a non starter.

This reminds me of when Trump was telling NATO countries they needed to step up their own defense programs and Merkel was like "Are you sure you want us building up our military?"

We don't need an Eighth Reich.

Germany and other EU countries are just pretending! They still want the F-35, but they want China to believe that it is not worth to developer their similar J-20 5th gen. fighter jet. So they say they are having "secret" meetings and discussions about alternatives!

In reality a valid motivation not to buy F-35s is probably available, but the motivation they claim in public are all "fake news"! They are just fancy clichès

a reply to: Flanker86
In reality only the Luftwaffe wants to purchase the F-35. German politicians want to support the european defense industry. Thus the Luftwaffe will get more Eurofighters.

Eurofighters are just interceptors,nothing more..Id be looking at SAAB for help.Not France.