New Study Shows that Immigrants Don't Steal Jobs from American Citizens

originally posted by: rickymouse
Any time an immigrant takes a job here, they take away an opening a citizen can get.

That's actually not correct. People have a hard time considering economic propositions because there's a lot of moving pieces.

Let's consider agriculture as the agriculture industry employs the most illegal immigrant labor. Have you ever been to a port? They're chock full of shipping containers filled with produce, from fresh fruit to frozen vegetables, as well as things like drums of juice concentrates.

That's because people in the South American countries where many of these folks come from work for next to nothing. Labor is so cheap that foreign growers can ship their produce on cargo vessels, pay whatever tariffs there are, have them fumigated with methyl bromide (fresh produce), in many cases floor loaded (stacked on the floor instead of pallets) at the source and "lumped" (stacked back onto pallets and often by cheap labor from sketchy "temp services") at the destination (a large overhead in labor to ship 10% or so more in a container), inspected, etc — and still compete with domestically grown produce, despite heavy subsidization of farming in the US, the widespread use of migrant laborers and commercial farming techniques and equipment.

The whole situation is pretty effed up as it seems we can either exploit people for cheap labor here and keep the costs of fruit and vegetables lower, kick them out, raise tariffs and pay more for everything (probably the most ethical solution), further subsidize agriculture to artificially depress costs or import even more stuff.

Alternatively, domestic growers might be able to compete through innovating further and using more automation to reduce labor requirements for the same yield — not the smaller farms mind you — the largest scale commercial growers. I won't even get into GMO and pesticides.

It's a mess but when you take it all together, the jobs you're talking about probably wouldn't exist if the people doing them weren't doing them anyway. And if they did, we'd all be paying a lot more for produce to cover the increase in labor costs.

Of course, you could also become one of those lefty hippy types and start a community garden and grow your own fruit and vegetables locally.

a reply to: interupt42

WEll dont worry too much about that the globalists and the NWO lackies couldnt get rid of President Trump so they decided to go with weather manipulation instead killing hundreds and displacing millions. Its a win win as their contractors get the jobs they would otherwise have missed out on on the wall contracts.

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: Krazysh0t

How about some math? Subtract the number of illegal immigrants over the decades from the blue-collar work force and then ask where did those former American job-holders and potential job-holders go?

Well? What's the answer? Didn't you do the math if you are going to bring this point up? Surely you have and it means something otherwise this would be a useless exercise.

I don't know about other parts of the country, but Texas was one of the hardest hit parts of the nation where the lower-middle class took a huge hit. My son was a ceramic tile layer. Those all of jobs literally went "south." In those days the American craftsman tile-setter made about $30/hour. Then the contractors got smart and brought in Mexican workers at 10 bucks and hour. (The country of Mexico does a lot of ceramic tile work and had many skilled workers.)

That's supply and demand man. $10 an hour is what liberals are trying to shift the national minimum wage to. If the company can get away with paying that for the price of employment then that is their right.

The shifting better-paid employees for those of lower pay is a typical tactic that has spread across America. Of course, it didn't stop there. Any day of the week you can hire a professional workers from India, etc., over an American. Or better yet, you can close call centers in the US and ship those jobs to call centers in off-shore countries. Business interests and government can cite all the stats that they want to cover the lie, but it is a lie, and part of the reason Americans near the bottom of the wage barrel put Trump into office.

The reason for this is because a lot of those jobs were overvalued as it was for the skills required.

When it comes to dollar and sense, the unwashed see through the facade that supports globalization because they are the ones that suffer. That is the bottom line of all of this wealth sharing going on around the world. Upgrade the poor nations at the expense of the wealth. The 1%s don't care a fig, as owners and investors their profits have probably grown.

Actually the "unwashed" as you call them are just being left behind by the times and are lashing out at society instead of fixing the problems they can address (like learning new skills). Technology is improving. You can do more with less people thanks to better and better technology. This is a growing fact of life. There is no fighting this inevitability, but lashing out at immigrants isn't going to solve your problems. The low skilled industries will continue to be downsized by technology.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

I'm on my phone, so thanks for doing that. Makes sense considering how illogical the statement in the OP was.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: thesaneone

"Studies" and narratives like these are used to blur the lines between legal and illegal immigration.

It's obvious and not very well done, IMHO.

Plus he has the walnuts to call out others in their threads.

originally posted by: RickyD
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Guess if the shoe fits...

You believe anything that supports your point and do everything in your power to dismiss anything contrary. Pretty sure I've been on ATS long enough to know how you operate here.

I post links and support my argument with data when I can. You get angry and call me names then declare yourself winner when I ask for supporting documentation of your argument.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I post links and support my argument

Exactly the problem.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Would immigrants not be included in the wage group I am singling out in that study? Especially the illegal variety.

That may be true....

....but then the opponents of Trump spent a couple of weeks parading all sorts of DREAM candidates who had professional jobs like nurses, accountants, EMT's, etc, and pointing out that we were going to deport these people. Those folks absolutely are filling American jobs that are desired.

a reply to: thesaneone

You DO know this isn't the mud pit, right? Are you planning on discussing the topic or are you just here to belittle me?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
That may be true....

....but then the opponents of Trump spent a couple of weeks parading all sorts of DREAM candidates who had professional jobs like nurses, accountants, EMT's, etc, and pointing out that we were going to deport these people. Those folks absolutely are filling American jobs that are desired.

Last I checked the medical industry is severely hurting for personnel...

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Unless and until the law is changed, it must be enforced. That's the social contract.

Do you believe that absolutely, or is your opinion subject to change based on the law in question?

As far as enforcement goes? I believe it absolutely. That doesn't mean that I won't cheer the villain every now and then when they thumb their nose at the feds over a law I disagree with and it doesn't mean that I won't actively support changing some laws... but the actual enforcement efforts of standing laws should be as robust as is needed to maintain the law. I'm not going to argue with people who want the law changed, that's very much their right. I do, however, think it is incredibly lazy and whiney to take a position of "I don't like that law, why is it being enforced?" It's the entire reason we have enumerated processes for law changes within our system of government.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: thesaneone

You DO know this isn't the mud pit, right? Are you planning on discussing the topic or are you just here to belittle me?

What's to discuss, as soon as someone counters you say uh uh, my study says this and all others are wrong.

-Families throughout the income distribution experienced gains in average real incomes between 2013 and 2016, reversing the trend from 2010 to 2013, when real incomes fell or remained stagnant for all but the top of the income distribution.

That's a load of horse snip.

Because the value of the dollar decreases with each day that pass's.

You can claim wage goes up all day long, but it takes more CASH to buy the same things.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

They are.

The state hospital my wife worked at until recently was paying Kenyans to come work for them. They converted an old unit into a dorm to house them in. Free room/board plus fast track/preferrential access to stipends and a full paycheck. It was a very, very sweet deal. Once they were done, it would make citizenship much easier.

The same happens with filipino nurses, too.

That is a lot of extra "hands up" and bonuses that could make American lives a bit better. I know a nurse who, while getting her RN, was not allowed to live in the dorms. My wife and I fixed up an unused efficiency apartment we had for her to live in. Too bad that assistance wasn't available for a US citizen. There were some empty beds.

a reply to: neo96

How much do you think the rate of inflation is each year exactly Neo?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

You don't even comprehend what you just quoted.

This says that EMPLOYERS submit the W2s to the Social Security Administration. These W2s are verification of what taxes and medicare were withheld during someone's employment with the company (tracked via their SSN).

This is in no way--ZERO WAY--a statement that these illegal immigrants FILED their taxes with the IRS.

Jesus, man--come on! Just come out and tell us all if you're going to suckle at the teat of your political bias more than pay attention to what the information in this thread is actually saying. I (and, I presume, others) want to know so that I can quit trying to help you with the actual information and just let you be stubborn, if that's going to be the case anyhow. I don't want to waste my time trying to move fixated objects.

And just so that you don't have to blindly believe me:

Form W-2

Employers must complete, file electronically or by mail with the Social Security Administration (SSA), and furnish to their employees Form W-2 (PDF), Wage and Tax Statement, showing the wages paid and taxes withheld for the year for each employee.

DIRECTLY FROM THE IRS!!!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
That may be true....

....but then the opponents of Trump spent a couple of weeks parading all sorts of DREAM candidates who had professional jobs like nurses, accountants, EMT's, etc, and pointing out that we were going to deport these people. Those folks absolutely are filling American jobs that are desired.

Last I checked the medical industry is severely hurting for personnel...

I've read in the past few years, and have heard firsthand from a couple of local friends trying to get into the program, that one of the main reasons for that shortage is the limited capacity of nursing and medical schools in the US. The professional visa immigrants coming into the country to work in the medical field don't have that hurdle to deal with, as they've already recieved their educations and certifications prior to entry. Perhaps instead of sending our money out of the country, we should first look at reprioritizing our graduate education money towards increasing capacity in educational fields that actually provide a return on the investment versus the current practice of buttressing general and liberal arts educations purely for the sake of allegedly being educated.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: neo96

How much do you think the rate of inflation is each year exactly Neo?

Depends on who you ask.

Millions of seniors get screwed every year with a non existent cola raise.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Well that is a topic for a whole other thread. I'm not really wanting to comment on government bureaucracy of benefits. That is a can of worms in itself, but the way I see it, immigration seems like a possible solution to our medical personal issue (provided they are vetted and properly trained first). I wouldn't let something like the immigration status stand in the way of getting good health care (again provided their education is up to task).