Boomerang Effect

For well over a decade, I have been on medium to high levels of narcotic pain meds. After being crushed a s a coal miner at 22, going right back to work after 2 years and 17? 18? [ I've lost count ] reconstructive surgeries on my left leg, left ankle, right arm, left hip and knee, then having a spinal fusion surgery at 33, again, going right back to work in a very physically demanding job, arthritis and pain became a daily problem. For years, I just thought "It goes with the job" till I started to have pain bad enough that I just couldn't deal with it. At 42, my back, left leg and hip hurt just to move and I finally said, "I need to go get this checked".
For years, I truly did not know what it meant not to be in pain. My wife told me I would moan in my sleep or grit my teeth and hiss when I rolled over and that's how she knew I'd had a bad night.
After years of Drs appointments, the pain getting worse and worse and the pain meds get higher and higher, I've had enough.
So, what am I getting at here?
Over the last 2 weeks, I've been weaning myself off all that. Very, very slowly, day by day, I've been taking less and less. Right now, other than 2 Advil, I've had nothing for roughly 50 hours............and I feel better than I have in years. Yeah, a little shaky, but no worse than too much coffee and it's getting better by the day. There was withdraw, but since I was doing it so slowly, nothing really nasty. Agitated, nervous, tossing, turning, couldn't sleep, twitchy and nauseous. Pain? There is, but less than with the narcotics. Nothing Advil doesn't handle.
There is something researchers call "The Boomerang Effect" when it comes to narcotics. I had heard of it and asked my ex if she had seen it. She's a 20+ year R.N and she said "It happens more than you think, that why they make some people take a "Drug Holiday" especially when they've been on them for years like you have".
[ By the way, if you want the real story, skip the Dr and talk to a Nurse. They've. Seen. Everything

emeraldcoastjourneypure.com...

Opioid Pain Medications This class of medication is prescribed to relieve moderate to severe pain. Doctors often prescribe them to people with chronic pain or cancer. Drugs in this class include Vicodin, Dilaudid, OxyContin, Percocet and Fentanyl.

I have, at one time or another, been on each one of those, or a combination, including Morphine.

Some researchers suggest that once a physical tolerance develops from the opioids, the person experiences opioid induced hyperalgesia. This term refers to the phenomena of feeling increased pain. In other words, taking opioid pain medication at high levels for too long has a boomerang effect and increases the level of pain that the person experiences.

Will I ever need them again? I have no idea. Right now, I feel fine. 6 months or a year from now? 5 years? [shrugs] There's just no way to tell.
Now, I know exactly what someone is going to say..."Get a marijuana card". Well, in the state of Illinois, I can since I'm disabled, but that's where it gets really complicated. I'm going for less pain in my ass, not to create more.

www.midwestcompassion.org...

According to the Illinois State Police (ISP), no rights of IL medical cannabis patients should be restricted per state law. However, since medical cannabis is still illegal on a federal level, federal trumps state law. If you apply for a gun at a store, as soon as they do a background check and see that you are a medical cannabis card holder, you will be denied. Some gun owners have a store policy in place where they simply deny cardholders outright and will not even do the federal background check. BTW, the denial comes from the ISP. The only way gun owners can buy a gun is through private sales.
However, if you already owned a gun(s) before you became a medical cannabis cardholder, you are not required to surrender them. But, you might not be able to purchase bullets for them.

a reply to: DAVID64

Get a marijuana card!

a reply to: DAVID64

Another alternative suggestion is : hypnosis.

Hypnotherapy for the Management of Chronic Pain

a reply to: dfnj2015

I will not give up my Rights, for some government granted "privilege".

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: dfnj2015

I will not give up my Rights, for some government granted "privilege".

I'd rather live without pain than have gun rights. And then solicit your politicians to support guns for pot-heads.

a reply to: DAVID64



I have chronic pain, and it sucks. Its sciatica. I take Oxy now 10/325 they work pretty well , I was taking Norco, but the pain was getting worse to the point that after 2 years Norco was not cutting it. I just had an epidural Tuesday, and its starting to work. Finally after 9 months of not having one. They really help me. As far as a medical card, pot really doesn't help with my pain, however it does help me relax. I have had my Card for 2 years now. Here in Cali, as of January its legal state wide recreationally though. I will keep my medical card. That way I wont pay the same price as those who use it just recreationally.

Hyperalgesia is a really tricky and interesting subject.

I've long held the opinion that simply upping dosages in order to compensate for the long term effects of pain management is an erroneous course of action. I think its critical for some pain signals to get through to receptors on a consistent basis, else the body will change its baseline. That's about the worst thing that can happen for someone in chronic, severe pain since not only will the pain be higher but solutions like pain meds become ineffective on top of it.

Basically, it seems the most effective outlook is to let some of the pain through on a consistent basis. This can be accomplished through timing the dosage as well as lower dosages. Something like a duragesic patch is more likely to result in higher pain levels in the long term. In my experience, tolerance directly equates to the first step in losing any and all efficacy, and simply increasing the dose is adding fuel to many fires (from individual pain level to social controversy). Using typical pain meds on something like neuropathic pain only exacerbates the issue as its not particularly effective in the first place.

I think there is a balance there beyond the all-or-nothing approach. However, the longer someone has been on the "increase the dose" regimen, the longer it can take to return to some sort of equilibrium.

a reply to: Serdgiam

For several years, it been either up or "sideways", meaning another narcotic, at an equivalent level. Morphine to Oxy to whatever, but never less and I'd just had enough of bouncing from one to another, but no real relief. One may work for a bit, but then right back to the same level of pain, only to repeat if/when the meds were changed. Something had to give. The human body is just not meant to handle that level of pain for years at a time. It's exhausting to say the least.

ETA - Oxy? I am so glad to see new regulations on that crap. I've been on it, it's not all that effective, but Good Lord it is addictive. Personally, I don't think it should be available to any but terminal patients. Dentists are handing out that stuff for God's sake.

I was on a strong variety of opioids for almost 4 months, January-April. Before through and after surgery. Honestly I'm not sure ultimately which made me more miserable the opioids and side effects or the extreme pain I was dealing with. Ultimately I literally flushed them out in the toilet, convinced myself there had to be a better way. I could have had almost unending and unlimited refills.

Since then I've been able to manage my pain, remain functional and enjoy life with the simple over counter aleve, 2 sometimes 3 in 24 hours. (Twelve hour tablets).

After that experience, I really don't ever want any kind of opioid for pain.

a reply to: ausername

"Side effects" Oh brother, have I had those. When I was first crushed and after surgery, I was being given injections of 13 mg of Morphine every 3 hours. Take an icicle and drop it...see the 2 or 3 big pieces and all the little shattered ones? That's what my left leg looked like. I saw the x rays.
When I had those nightmares after days of all that Morphine, I got up out of bed, IVs, catheter, tubes, pins and screws holding my leg together and was trying to run to get away from what I saw in my dream. They took me off it right then.

a reply to: DAVID64

I know what you mean..

I'm envious of people who can take vacations. Being able to take a break from ones problems is a distinct luxury that many don't truly appreciate.

I've been on the same medications and dosages for years, but I was only able to accomplish that through a plan of my own design. Like so very many topics, people think they know what they are talking about and are completely unwilling to listen to those with actual experience. I most certainly include a lot of doctors in that statement!

Its very easy to jump into the paradigm of just taking pain meds in proportion to perceived pain. Beyond that, this class of medications can emulate a false sense of escape from the situation. Beyond that, they are frequently prescribed for pain that simply isn't well handed by such medication, like neuropathy. It all creates a helluva vicious cycle. This becomes compounded by a litany of connected issues, like suggesting MMJ as a blanket alternative (it isn't.)

I'm not sure its acceptable to go into specific dosages, schedules, etc. but when I hear about poor patients that are prescribed something like 250mg+ of oxycodone a day.. I can't help but think they could have a better life. In a way, I suppose it seems very counter-intuitive. Thinking straight and honestly can be a tall order when you are in severe, constant, long-term pain.

It's good you are getting off those pain relievers. There are foods and herbs that can work, the problem with Opiates is the more you take, the more enzyme your body makes that breaks them down. So you wind up needing more and more to be at the same place. Also, years of taking them can cause some liver and kidney damage some times, which is not good. I don't like them at all, I am constipated enough without pain relievers.

Coffee actually helps relieve pain, so does tobacco, but there are also problems with both of these too, they are not without side effects. In place of tobacco, a little dab of hot sauce in your food will help with pain, the active form of niacin calms a person and takes away pain. www.webmd.com... E

NAC does have some side effects if taken too long, it may feed your cells but it can also make cancer cells stronger. So a small amount intermittantly is best.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Thinking straight and honestly can be a tall order when you are in severe, constant, long-term pain.

It took about 10 years, but one day it finally hit me...This is never going to get better. And I will admit, I was in a pretty dark place for awhile. The one thing that saved me was my wife and kids. Now, just my kids, but I just couldn't do anything to hurt myself, knowing what it would do to them. It's bad enough knowing that one day all too soon they'll need me and think "I wish Dad was here"...and I'll be gone. I can not do anything to hasten that day.

a reply to: rickymouse

Coffee helps? Huh. Well, I've got a head start there. I knew capsaicin helps and I've been eating spicy foods for years, so maybe that's been a plus. I also take a B complex with Folic Acid and Vitamin C every day, so maybe that's why I'm not hurting as bad as I expected to. I've been doing all the right things all along.
Woulda thunk.

a reply to: kurthall

Let's see....at one time, I was on 160 [ 2 80s a day ] of Oxy plus a 100mcg patch of Fentanyl. That was not fun. Then, when I had to come off that, a boatload of Methadone. I had 600, 10 mg pills per month, so...yeah, helluvu dose per day. Got off that, went to Morphine.... and round and round we went. It been exhausting.
Just. F'ing. Exhausting.

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: rickymouse

Coffee helps? Huh. Well, I've got a head start there. I knew capsaicin helps and I've been eating spicy foods for years, so maybe that's been a plus. I also take a B complex with Folic Acid and Vitamin C every day, so maybe that's why I'm not hurting as bad as I expected to. I've been doing all the right things all along.
Woulda thunk.

Spicy food does have a doping effect if you eat too much, You don't think they promote Capsaicin as a super food for nothing in this country do you. Any food promoted as super either suppresses your energy or dopes you. A little doping is good, too much is no good. The same chemistry that calms you in hot food actually reduces pain if consumed at higher levels.

For that pain, try eating a little jello a couple of times a week, Geletin has some good benefits when it comes to bone or joint pain. I am guessing that is part of the damage. A little extra black pepper on your food is also a slight pain reliever, we use the organic stuff because it tastes better. It works on the Endocannabinoid system in the cells, giving some results sort of like pot does. It works on the CB1 receptors, so it doesn't get you buzzed.

The B vitamins assist in repair of cells, unless your deficient there is little benefit, but if you are deficient, then you will notice improvement. I took a B complex for a while, containing methylcobalamin and Methylfolate, I think it is called B-right or something like that. It helped to restore my deficiency but I started to notice symptoms of getting overloaded so now I reduced it to once or twice a week now.

Bromelain will reduce inflammation which in turn reduces pain. But I do not know if that will help in your case. I don't think that yours would be an inflammation issue, but it may be worth a try. You might wind up thinning your blood too much if you are on blood thinning medicines or if you take too much. Bromelain works sort of like onions to thin blood, I have it in a smaller dose and am analyzing how it is working, it does take down inflammation in me and I started to use monolaurin in a small dose because I am intollerant to milk and that is making my guts feel better and making me less constipated. I have only been testing those two for two months now, the bromelain I was taking before that just when I needed it for inflammation. Neither of these are expensive, the bromelain may be something you mighty want to try. It is an enzyme, try eating some fresh pineapple and see if that helps reduce your pain. If that works, maybe the bromelain may too. Similar enzymes are found in grapefruit, but too much grapefruit is not good, it can cause crystals to form in muscles if you eat quite a bit. That causes pain. Pineapple has less of that chemistry, I think it is a special terpine chemistry that grapefruit has that causes it. Oranges may have that chemistry, I never cross linked whether they do or not. I did check out lemons, it is not pronounced in lemon, but too much of anything containing limonine can cause bad reactions in the sun so if you go outdoors, be aware of that.

a reply to: DAVID64

I think acceptance is paramount, yet its something that doctors frequently advise against. We are so used to the healing process that any deviation is utterly alien. When I tried to tell my doctors that I had lost hope of things getting better (perhaps a poor word choice on my part), but had found hope in seeking out a different life, I was harangued.

When I was put on the duragesic patch, I wasn't even believed when I reported I was going into withdrawals on the final day. The amount of times I have been told "that shouldn't be" only goes to show that there is this pre-existing template that doesn't agree with reality, or change with new evidence.

Personally, I'm pretty open and honest with my own struggles even if there is a tinge of embarrassment with some things. Talking about something like those dark places.. well.. most would rather ignore they exist. And, talking about constipation isn't particularly noble or stoic. The entire topic also tends to be very taboo.

Anyway, my own trial and error found that avoiding hyperalgesia was as critical as the pain management itself. A consideration that isn't particularly accounted for in the majority of perspectives on the topic.

I think that is a very real problem. However, it seems there is currently a very concrete notion on how these things should be handled. The issue is that it seems to either be based in politics, where there exists the incorrect assumption that these medications are dealt out like candy to anyone, or the incorrect idea that more pain is handled best by more medication. The people who are impacted the most tend to be an afterthought, at best, when they should be the central driving factor behind decisions.

a reply to: rickymouse

Wow. I guess I have been eating right. I love fresh pineapple and get one every couple of weeks. I just cut off as much as I want each time and wrap the rest. Oranges too. I get those little ones fairly often and eat 2 or 3 a day till they're gone. I eat Vidalia onions on the side with sandwiches, on hamburgers and use them in things like Chili. I do like Grapefruit, I just don't eat them very often. 2-3 times a year maybe? My diet is pretty high in fruits and veg all around.
Black pepper goes with everything.

originally posted by: DAVID64
For well over a decade, I have been on medium to high levels of narcotic pain meds. After being crushed a s a coal miner at 22, going right back to work after 2 years and 17? 18? [ I've lost count ] reconstructive surgeries on my left leg, left ankle, right arm, left hip and knee, then having a spinal fusion surgery at 33, again, going right back to work in a very physically demanding job, arthritis and pain became a daily problem. For years, I just thought "It goes with the job" till I started to have pain bad enough that I just couldn't deal with it. At 42, my back, left leg and hip hurt just to move and I finally said, "I need to go get this checked".
For years, I truly did not know what it meant not to be in pain. My wife told me I would moan in my sleep or grit my teeth and hiss when I rolled over and that's how she knew I'd had a bad night.
After years of Drs appointments, the pain getting worse and worse and the pain meds get higher and higher, I've had enough.
So, what am I getting at here?
Over the last 2 weeks, I've been weaning myself off all that. Very, very slowly, day by day, I've been taking less and less. Right now, other than 2 Advil, I've had nothing for roughly 50 hours............and I feel better than I have in years. Yeah, a little shaky, but no worse than too much coffee and it's getting better by the day. There was withdraw, but since I was doing it so slowly, nothing really nasty. Agitated, nervous, tossing, turning, couldn't sleep, twitchy and nauseous. Pain? There is, but less than with the narcotics. Nothing Advil doesn't handle.
There is something researchers call "The Boomerang Effect" when it comes to narcotics. I had heard of it and asked my ex if she had seen it. She's a 20+ year R.N and she said "It happens more than you think, that why they make some people take a "Drug Holiday" especially when they've been on them for years like you have".
[ By the way, if you want the real story, skip the Dr and talk to a Nurse. They've. Seen. Everything

emeraldcoastjourneypure.com...

Opioid Pain Medications This class of medication is prescribed to relieve moderate to severe pain. Doctors often prescribe them to people with chronic pain or cancer. Drugs in this class include Vicodin, Dilaudid, OxyContin, Percocet and Fentanyl.

I have, at one time or another, been on each one of those, or a combination, including Morphine.

Some researchers suggest that once a physical tolerance develops from the opioids, the person experiences opioid induced hyperalgesia. This term refers to the phenomena of feeling increased pain. In other words, taking opioid pain medication at high levels for too long has a boomerang effect and increases the level of pain that the person experiences.

Will I ever need them again? I have no idea. Right now, I feel fine. 6 months or a year from now? 5 years? [shrugs] There's just no way to tell.
Now, I know exactly what someone is going to say..."Get a marijuana card". Well, in the state of Illinois, I can since I'm disabled, but that's where it gets really complicated. I'm going for less pain in my ass, not to create more.

www.midwestcompassion.org...

According to the Illinois State Police (ISP), no rights of IL medical cannabis patients should be restricted per state law. However, since medical cannabis is still illegal on a federal level, federal trumps state law. If you apply for a gun at a store, as soon as they do a background check and see that you are a medical cannabis card holder, you will be denied. Some gun owners have a store policy in place where they simply deny cardholders outright and will not even do the federal background check. BTW, the denial comes from the ISP. The only way gun owners can buy a gun is through private sales.
However, if you already owned a gun(s) before you became a medical cannabis cardholder, you are not required to surrender them. But, you might not be able to purchase bullets for them.

Try CBD Oil as a non thc alternative to medical cannabis....derived from cannabis but without the the. Also check with a joint specialist about getting magnesium shots for the pain. I have pain from an old motorcycle accident and magnesium relieves it very effectively for months....and there's no build up of tolerance. Only side effects for me are becoming a bit tired right after and the day after I get them having the runs....small price to pay for me.

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: rickymouse

Wow. I guess I have been eating right. I love fresh pineapple and get one every couple of weeks. I just cut off as much as I want each time and wrap the rest. Oranges too. I get those little ones fairly often and eat 2 or 3 a day till they're gone. I eat Vidalia onions on the side with sandwiches, on hamburgers and use them in things like Chili. I do like Grapefruit, I just don't eat them very often. 2-3 times a year maybe? My diet is pretty high in fruits and veg all around.
Black pepper goes with everything.

Watch for those crystals that form in the muscles from eating too much of that stuff. They are xanthine crystals. Grapefruit and some other citrus foods inhibit Xanthine oxidase which breaks these down so you can get sharp crystals in your muscles. Here is a little article on that, I couldn't remember which enzyme was involved so had to look it up again. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

I know someone who got these crystals from eating too many oranges and grapefruit. They don't go away so easily once you get them. Taking a molybdenum supplement can often help to keep the enzyme up, but it doesn't stop the enzyme from getting inhibited by diet. Moderation applies, these crystals will make you sore.