Health care reform has failed, it's time to go back to tax reform

The Trump regime seems poised to continue their string of attempted reforms. This time, a new tax bill looking at reducing the top marginal rate from 39.6% to 35%. There are no spending cuts attached to this, instead the plan is to increase the lower marginal rates so that the middle and lower classes pay more.

Basically, tax reform, rather than being the typical code for a tax cut, actually means a tax increase for about 99% of Americans this time around. Depending on your income level, it's anywhere from a 20% to a 100% increase in taxes.

The only problem with all this? It's focused on trying to tax people who don't have any meaningful assets in the first place. Thus, even the administration is already having to admit that this will only be the first round of changes to pay for the proposed cut.

thinkprogress.org...

a reply to: Aazadan

It doesn't matter whether or not he actually lowers taxes for the middle class, only that he says he did. Good enough for me! MAGA!

originally posted by: Aazadan
The Trump regime seems poised to continue their string of attempted reforms. This time, a new tax bill looking at reducing the top marginal rate from 39.6% to 35%. There are no spending cuts attached to this, instead the plan is to increase the lower marginal rates so that the middle and lower classes pay more.

Basically, tax reform, rather than being the typical code for a tax cut, actually means a tax increase for about 99% of Americans this time around. Depending on your income level, it's anywhere from a 20% to a 100% increase in taxes.

The only problem with all this? It's focused on trying to tax people who don't have any meaningful assets in the first place. Thus, even the administration is already having to admit that this will only be the first round of changes to pay for the proposed cut.

thinkprogress.org...

The lower and lower middle need to pay more or there needs to be some SIGNIFICANT budget cuts. Part of the problem is we have nearly 50% of people not paying a dime in federal income taxes, yet we have government paying for more and more stuff. There simply aren't enough high earners to pay for everything.

So either pay up or cut the budget...

a reply to: Edumakated

For sure. Corporations are paying way too much and are suffering horrendously because of it (only 2,000% executive profit growth instead of 10,000%). Let the Lower/Middle class fat-cats finally pay their fair share!

Something has to be done or companies like Google and Medtronic will just continue to move their HQ's to other countries. What is better, lowing the corp tax rate to 25% or getting 0% when they leave?

a reply to: Aazadan

On Tuesday, Axios reported Republicans have agreed on a plan to raise the bottom tax rate from 10 percent to 12 percent, while also doubling the standard deduction.

2 percent more but the deduction is doubled? Yea, sounds like its going to break everyone's back alright
Lets not dramatize the tax reform before the ink is dry.

Serious question. What would happen if both the rich and the middle to low income class, got their taxes reduced? Would that help a bit or would one side benefit too much than the other?

originally posted by: Wayfarer
a reply to: Edumakated

For sure. Corporations are paying way too much and are suffering horrendously because of it (only 2,000% executive profit growth instead of 10,000%). Let the Lower/Middle class fat-cats finally pay their fair share!

Corporations don't pay taxes...

The tax is just passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices. Sooner or later, corporations will choose to locate to more tax favorable countries. Capital is fluid and will always seek to reduce expenses.

If you think other wise, you are special kind of stupid.

Our tax code needs significant reform aimed at simplification. Personally, I want a flat tax on all income with zero deductions allowed.

Our tax code is being used by politicians on both sides of the aisle to pay back political favors. There is no reason whatsoever that we need a tax code, especially for individuals, that is 74,000 pages! WTF?

originally posted by: Edumakated
The lower and lower middle need to pay more or there needs to be some SIGNIFICANT budget cuts. Part of the problem is we have nearly 50% of people not paying a dime in federal income taxes, yet we have government paying for more and more stuff. There simply aren't enough high earners to pay for everything.

So either pay up or cut the budget...

They can't pay more, not in any significant volume atleast. Taxes are based on percentages, not only do higher income folks have a larger pool to draw from, but a larger precent gets taken. It's an exponential increase in funds raised as you go up the income demographics, or to flip that around an exponential decrease as you try to "broaden the base".

Lets look at the people who go from 10 to 12% for example using current US tax tables. 10% currently applies to the first $9325 in income, so $932.50 per person who pays taxes. Just about everyone hits this. There's 138 million taxpayers in the US so that accounts for about 128.5 billion dollars out of 3.5 million in revenues. Increasing that to 12% changes it to 154 billion. You're only gaining $26 billion dollars while the proposed cuts are talking about 500 billion per year (for 5 trillion over a decade). It's like saying you're thousands of dollars in debt, and proposing to fix that by downgrading your Shampoo from Head and Shoulders to VO5.

The lower and middle class, simply don't have the assets to tax. It doesn't matter what percent you tax them at as far as relevancy to federal revenues goes. The bottom 50% of Americans have a median income of $26,000. That's a total income of 1.69 trillion between them. The top 50% has a median income of about $180,000. That's 11.7 trillion of taxable assets between them. If you take 1% of that 11.7 trillion pool, you have to take 7% from the 1.7 trillion pool to get the same amount. Therefore, a 5% decrease on the wealthy is going to require at least a 35% increase on the poor, just to make the numbers balance out.

It simply doesn't work. The poor cannot pay more until the wealth gaps are reduced. That goes along with having very high gaps in earning potential in a company. It simply makes no fiscal sense to both expect people to pay meaningful amounts of taxes, and to keep their pay down. Morality aside, the numbers simply don't work.

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Something has to be done or companies like Google and Medtronic will just continue to move their HQ's to other countries. What is better, lowing the corp tax rate to 25% or getting 0% when they leave?

Pay American taxes if you want access to American markets. It's pretty simple. We have a lot of disposable income, if they want to obtain it, they'll pay to play.

originally posted by: luciferslight
Serious question. What would happen if both the rich and the middle to low income class, got their taxes reduced? Would that help a bit or would one side benefit too much than the other?

You can reduce taxes all around, of course you also have to reduce spending to match.

But even if you go through all those hoops... where does that get you? If you cut back government services, people will pay just as much if not more on the open market to get those same services. It doesn't actually put more money in anyones pocket. At best it leaves you in a neutral position.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Edumakated
The lower and lower middle need to pay more or there needs to be some SIGNIFICANT budget cuts. Part of the problem is we have nearly 50% of people not paying a dime in federal income taxes, yet we have government paying for more and more stuff. There simply aren't enough high earners to pay for everything.

So either pay up or cut the budget...

They can't pay more, not in any significant volume atleast. Taxes are based on percentages, not only do higher income folks have a larger pool to draw from, but a larger precent gets taken. It's an exponential increase in funds raised as you go up the income demographics, or to flip that around an exponential decrease as you try to "broaden the base".

Lets look at the people who go from 10 to 12% for example using current US tax tables. 10% currently applies to the first $9325 in income, so $932.50 per person who pays taxes. Just about everyone hits this. There's 138 million taxpayers in the US so that accounts for about 128.5 billion dollars out of 3.5 million in revenues. Increasing that to 12% changes it to 154 billion. You're only gaining $26 billion dollars while the proposed cuts are talking about 500 billion per year (for 5 trillion over a decade). It's like saying you're thousands of dollars in debt, and proposing to fix that by downgrading your Shampoo from Head and Shoulders to VO5.

The lower and middle class, simply don't have the assets to tax. It doesn't matter what percent you tax them at as far as relevancy to federal revenues goes. The bottom 50% of Americans have a median income of $26,000. That's a total income of 1.69 trillion between them. The top 50% has a median income of about $180,000. That's 11.7 trillion of taxable assets between them. If you take 1% of that 11.7 trillion pool, you have to take 7% from the 1.7 trillion pool to get the same amount. Therefore, a 5% decrease on the wealthy is going to require at least a 35% increase on the poor, just to make the numbers balance out.

It simply doesn't work. The poor cannot pay more until the wealth gaps are reduced. That goes along with having very high gaps in earning potential in a company. It simply makes no fiscal sense to both expect people to pay meaningful amounts of taxes, and to keep their pay down. Morality aside, the numbers simply don't work.

Every little bit helps, I don't care if it is $10.00. You can also take 100% of the money from the richest and it wouldn't fund the government. So what does this tell you? The federal government is attempting to do too much! We need significant spending cuts across the board from the military to social services.

a reply to: luciferslight

Generally, when the upper 20% of earners have their taxes lowered they put it into savings accounts or into the stock market, they don't spend it on 'extra' things. When the lower 20% have their taxes lowered then they use that money to spend on things like new furniture or better housing.

So, the short of it is that wealthier people use the extra money to build their net-worth while poorer people use it in a way that stimulates the economy more by spending the money on things they need.

originally posted by: links234
a reply to: luciferslight

Generally, when the upper 20% of earners have their taxes lowered they put it into savings accounts or into the stock market, they don't spend it on 'extra' things. When the lower 20% have their taxes lowered then they use that money to spend on things like new furniture or better housing.

So, the short of it is that wealthier people use the extra money to build their net-worth while poorer people use it in a way that stimulates the economy more by spending the money on things they need.

Yes, they put that money in their savings accounts. However, it isn't the same thing as say burying that money in the backyard or under a mattress. That money is actually put back into the capital markets which in turn is used to make loans to consumers and finance business expansion. This is the whole point of the stock market. This helps everyone out because it creates more jobs.

The wealthy spend money too. In NYC, the entire city is on pins and needles in December waiting to hear Wall Street bonuses pay out because it points to money being spent at a lot of businesses - restaurants, retail stores, real estate, car dealers, private schools, etc. All these businesses employ people who depend on these high rollers spending money.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Something has to be done or companies like Google and Medtronic will just continue to move their HQ's to other countries. What is better, lowing the corp tax rate to 25% or getting 0% when they leave?

Pay American taxes if you want access to American markets. It's pretty simple. We have a lot of disposable income, if they want to obtain it, they'll pay to play.

isnt that illegal to do? i mean we have poloticians going to jail for that.

BWaaaah seriously?
Sorry, your source is bunk
From website...

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IF only Hilabama had a website.

Oh wait, they do, and you just linked to it.

Cool level 0

originally posted by: Edumakated
Every little bit helps, I don't care if it is $10.00. You can also take 100% of the money from the richest and it wouldn't fund the government. So what does this tell you? The federal government is attempting to do too much! We need significant spending cuts across the board from the military to social services.

The wealthy have plenty of money to fund the government. They're doing it right now.

Significant cuts to government budgets won't do anything. 2/3 of the budget is mandatory spending. Which means the only thing we can possibly cut is discretionary spending. Even if we cut all of that, which means zero spending on education, NASA, road construction, science, state department, energy, transportation, or anything else... you would only see a rate reduction of 33% to your federal taxes, which would be like going from a 39.6% rate to 26.4%. Of course, this doesn't even mean you would have 1/3 more money in your pocket because federal taxes are still only part of what you pay. In NY you're paying 7% in state, and then another 4% in city. So your real out of pocket rate goes from 51% to 37%, a 28% reduction.

On top of that, you would need to support a system of toll roads, private schools, and so on to make up for the now eliminated government system. So in the end you would still be paying the same amount out of pocket, on average.

This is why arguing over tax rates is ultimately meaningless. The truth is that it doesn't matter what you pay.

originally posted by: yuppa
isnt that illegal to do? i mean we have poloticians going to jail for that.

Nope, most states have moved to that model with online transactions even. That's why most people now pay sales tax on online purchases.

originally posted by: Mandroid7
BWaaaah seriously?
Sorry, your source is bunk
From website...

So you're saying that congress isn't planning to take up tax reform again? For the third time this year. You're saying that their plan isn't to reduce the top marginal rate while increasing the bottom?

I feel a return to homesteading, batering and precious metals etc as currency is the only fix. Free crap, free healthcare and free everything else has lead to rampaging population growth and unskilled breathers.

If you cant provide for yourself and your family, the kindest solution is to let nature take its course. Soon polution, and all the worlds woahs disappear.

These arguments will continue and the population of unskilled non participants will get more demanding for things they dont even know the value of...