Another rant: What part of LEAVE does the left not understand? Brexit

originally posted by: fusiondoe
Leave means LEAVE.

No Vince Cable there shouldn't be a second referendum.
No Tony Blair you can't lobby together with other politicians to 'stop' Brexit.
Etc
Etc
Etc

It's driving me crazy keep seeing this everywhere. The public voted to LEAVE by a majority. Whether it was a majority of 1 person or a million people. It was a democratic vote and 'Leave' won.

Just suppose it had went the other way, do you not think somebody like Nigel Farage would be looking for another referendum?

We need anything other than a weak Tory government leading this.

We are leaving.

All this BS talk, that's what it is, is just diverting your attention from the real issues.

Human Rights.
Lawful international trade.
Welfare and housing.
Education.
The judiciary system.

Whilst we bicker about pointless things, the EU is working towards our exit, an exit that is lawfully bound.

Demand transparent democracy (anything else isn't democracy) and demand that the issues I stated are addressed.

We cannot enter the house of the world alone whilst we barely have our own in order. We NEED to sort our crap out.

I voted brexit, I voted for it because I believed we could achieve more, create a fairer society and give the world a blueprint for how modern humans can live.

It seems I was deluded.

originally posted by: fusiondoeLeave means LEAVE whether you are a remainer or leaver, the vote has been cast, deal with it

Well, that's the thing with democracy: it's never a "done deal", all decisions are temporarily and reconsiderable.

That's a good thing. If it were any other way, you would not even have had a vote on Brexit. After all, the people had already voted in favour of the EU in 1975 (and by a whopping 2/3rd majority).

Also, your seem to have rather strange notions of what you consider "left" and "right" ideas. I'm quite a leftist myself and me and my "leftist" circles were always opposed to the "EU Super state". I believe the left is still mostly AGAINST the EU, not, as you seem to suggest, in favour of it.

Also note that it was Edward Heath's CONSERVATIVE government - so: THE RIGHT - that enrolled the UK into the EU in 1973 in the first place. And then note that it was indeed THE LEFT (Labour) that insisted that the people would decide "trough the ballot box". So, before you start a rant - get your facts straight please.

Even today, the left is highly skeptical about the EU, so your notion of us leftists being in favour of the EU is downright silly. But most of us here at the left feel that the right wing alternative - Brexit at the mercy of the EU, without a plan, actually, not even a clou on how to proceed - is even worse.

Now, about the Brexit: yes, a minute majority of the people (2 percent) voted in favour of the Brexit. However, that was based on partially incomplete information, and in some cases even straight forward lying - by the right, mind you, not the so-called leftists. I feel that in such conditions, and given the very minute majority of the clearly misled people, the Brexit should be suspended, or even cancelled.

And I'm not the only one, and our numbers are growing.

originally posted by: smurfy

originally posted by: fusiondoe
Leave means LEAVE.

No Vince Cable there shouldn't be a second referendum.
No Tony Blair you can't lobby together with other politicians to 'stop' Brexit.
Etc
Etc
Etc

It's driving me crazy keep seeing this everywhere. The public voted to LEAVE by a majority. Whether it was a majority of 1 person or a million people. It was a democratic vote and 'Leave' won.

Just suppose it had went the other way, do you not think somebody like Nigel Farage would be looking for another referendum?

Indeed we have the words of the man himself.

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: smurfy

originally posted by: fusiondoe
Leave means LEAVE.

No Vince Cable there shouldn't be a second referendum.
No Tony Blair you can't lobby together with other politicians to 'stop' Brexit.
Etc
Etc
Etc

It's driving me crazy keep seeing this everywhere. The public voted to LEAVE by a majority. Whether it was a majority of 1 person or a million people. It was a democratic vote and 'Leave' won.

Just suppose it had went the other way, do you not think somebody like Nigel Farage would be looking for another referendum?

Indeed we have the words of the man himself.

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

Yes, I know it well, and he said that a while before the referendum itself, yet in his abiding hypocrisy, he did the rounds afterwards telling everyone to get over it..., a bit like the OP here.

The real laugh is that we never were 'legally' in the EU in the first place, nor in the second place when Harold held the referendum in the 70's.

here's your link, www.bbc.co.uk...

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
That's a good thing. If it were any other way, you would not even have had a vote on Brexit. After all, the people had already voted in favour of the EU in 1975 (and by a whopping 2/3rd majority).

That was vote for the common market, not the EU as it stands today.
The Brexit referendum is the first vote on leaving the EU. An EU which evolved through decisions of government and Parliament. Yes of course we elect said lawmakers, but the Brexit referendum was unique to a vastly different political situation.
Here is the question which was on our ballot papers:
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

The EU had changed so dramatically from the original common market in 1975, so I feel the second referendum was valid and pertinent.

a reply to: RAY1990
You forgot on your list. Stop running the NHS into debt so that you can sell it off to your cronies.
Let me here and now set the record straight. WE DID NOT VOTE TO LEAVE THE EU IN THE REFERENDUM.
What we voted for in the referendum was, to quote the voting paper " SHOULD THE UNITED KINGDOM REMAIN A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION OR LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION".
That ladies and gentlemen is a question asking your OPINION not a voted mandate to leave.
The government asked your opinion, just because the majority voted to leave does not mean the government has to follow the vote.

originally posted by: crayzeed
That ladies and gentlemen is a question asking your OPINION not a voted mandate to leave.
The government asked your opinion, just because the majority voted to leave does not mean the government has to follow the vote.

Do you know of any modern referendum where the opinion of the public has not been the outcome?
The Welsh devolution referendum in 1997 passed on a slim 50.3% yes vote.
I'm not aware of a precedent where a UK referendum result has been overturned by government, I would need to google it to assert there have been none though.

a reply to: TJames
That still doesn't detract from the post, the referendum was just a glorified opinion poll not a mandate. I am not saying they will go against it but they can if they want.

originally posted by: TJames
...That was vote for the common market, not the EU as it stands today.
The EU had changed so dramatically from the original common market in 1975, so I feel the second referendum was valid and pertinent.

There's no question that Heath knew about the long term transitions in the first place, at the time the public knew very little, that was the first instance of Heath's constitutional illegality, and the commons vote meant nothing because the same issue of sovereignty, the act of settlement, was applicable then, just as the government was forced into doing this time round after the referendum. Heath should have had a referendum and/or went to the country then, but he didn't. Enter Harold Wilson who knew about the carry on, so he decided to make everything hunky dory by having a referendum to correct the Heath illegality, however, Wilson himself still chanced it since the wording of that referendum was, "Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market) "

The thing is, constitutionally I dare legally as well, we were not in the EC/EU in the first place since that required a referendum..which never happened, and the people were cheated out of it. Wilson was able to swing his referendum anyway, with a new EC agreement, (the Dublin agreement) and goodies that most of Parliament on all sides agreed with, and the country..the people were happy enough.

a reply to: crayzeed

I agree it was not legally binding on the government but it's never happened before as far as I'm aware so I'd be surprised if the precedent was set with this referendum.
Especially with the two biggest parties both supporting leaving the EU.
How that exit of the EU finally appears, and the form it will take is the question now, not if it will happen or not...as far as I consider the current political environment at least.

a reply to: smurfy

A referendum has no constitutional role in the UK. There was no requirement for one to join the common market and yes we are in the EU.

a reply to: smurfy

It is a fascinating history of lies and deception isn't it.
But then that just sums up politics worldwide to be fair, from parish councils to UN levels and other international organisations.

a reply to: fusiondoe
Pathetic post. First off the title is wrong folks on both sides of politics voted Brexit and Remain. Second, Lib dems are not "left" they are centrists. Third......oh dear why oh why are you Brexiters getting so defensive?

Just in case you don't get it : there are only 2 political parties that will, for the foreseeable future, be in power and both have stated every single week since the vote that they respect the vote and we will leave. Forget individuals causing trouble or mouthing off to save their constituency asses (leave and remain) what matters is the official line of the parties and both are committed to leaving the EU.

Just in case you don't get this bit : Brexit MP's are in charge of the process.

This means , ramming home the point now in case you are really thick : we are leaving the EU and nothing will stop it.

Now given that blindingly obvious point why the f... do you Brexiters get all agitated? Could it be that the whole process is slowly but surely unravelling as a complete cluster f..k and the only people to blame are those who voted Brexit and those Brexiters in charge of the process!

I have seen many many challenges to Brexiters to "prove" that Brexit is looking like a success. The silence is deafening. Well not quite true : the silence wrt proof is deafening. Every time you lot are challenged you resort to name calling and get all fricking agitated shouting at the Remainers to shut up. Why ? Surely we have the right to voice our opinion. Isn't "breaking free from the EU", "Sovereignty", "freedom" etc one of your calling cries? Oh that's right except when you disagree with it....

Given the 100% certainty of leaving the EU this Brexit bitching is blindingly obvious defensive behaviour.

originally posted by: TJames
a reply to: smurfy

It is a fascinating history of lies and deception isn't it.
But then that just sums up politics worldwide to be fair, from parish councils to UN levels and other international organisations.

But there is one thing you cannot ignore, one of the few things in the uncodified British constitution is the bill of rights...1688-1689 all according. The rather grim oath...in parts, of the time given by the to be William III, who was a foreigner, (known as King Billy round these parts) makes it quite clear that no foreign agent or power, has power or precedent over the sovereign parliament, that is part of the constitution, one of the few bits written down, and is still acted upon where it suits. Heath knew that it was problematic in what he proposed. This as I said required Heath to go to the country, the choice would have been to stand down, and call for an election, or to have a referendum. Heath did neither.
One thing I can say, is that recently, there is talk of making constitutional change to the said Bill Of Rights and later Act of settlement..in what area I don't know, but a guess is that they might tickle something that is acceptable all round, while the goal is to further tinker perhaps in a more fundamental way in regard to what the Bill Of Rights stands for.

* " From the beginning we knew we were joining more than just a free trade area. We realised that if the French wanted us in to counterbalance the Germans and the Germans wanted us in to counterbalance the French, it was important that we should play a strong political role. There was a general feeling that we were signing up to a European union and would have to contribute to it, which is in some respects what we failed to do afterwards.


The Guardian's Brexit Means ... Is Britain expecting the impossible? Brexit Means... podcast
‘Nobody said it would be easy,’ says David Davis. We discuss what has been making life difficult for the Brexit secretary this week
Listen
Heath knew the EU would evolve towards a political union, and wanted to make certain the UK contributed to the way it was shaped. There was a realisation by the negotiators that we were setting out a direction of travel, and making certain that we had the right stops on the journey – but we didn’t have great arguments about the ultimate destination.

We weren’t talking about the united states of Europe, or suggesting that Europe should become something similar to the United States or the then Soviet Union. Instead, we sought to set in train the development of something that needed to evolve inch by inch as we went ahead. It was always going to be up to later governments to establish how the union could be developed, and what the limits should be. The challenge was to get people seeing the world through a European lens.

It was sad that in later negotiations we were always one of the more reluctant countries. We never gave proper leadership. We spent our time arguing about details, and were grudging members when we could have been leading members.

Heath had provided that in the early 1970s, but later on the Conservative party started tearing itself to bits over things that were really beyond belief. And Heath’s successors were never fully signed up to Europe: they wanted bits and pieces of things, but had no overall vision of what could be achieved. Jim Callaghan, for instance, never understood what was going on.

All these years later, coming out will be a great disaster because we will lose the ability to shape the future of Europe. We should have played a major role in the EU’s evolution. Now we will have no role in Europe, and much-reduced power and influence in the world generally.

• Sir Crispin Tickell, after participating in the negotiations that led to the UK’s accession to the EEC, became chef de cabinet to the president of the European Commission, and later British ambassador to the UN.
www.theguardian.com...

For my part, the real Britain-never-had-it-so-good, was being an actor in the EU, from the get go, and peoples standards soared as far as Britain is concerned in just about every scenario, unlike anything before, and indeed had Britain done the right thing at the beginning, and become a full member, it could have been even better.
Now, we are pretty much on our own, and such a tiny country it is.

originally posted by: smurfyhad Britain done the right thing at the beginning, and become a full member, it could have been even better. Now, we are pretty much on our own, and such a tiny country it is.

I love the UK, actually - mostly for it's traditions. Nothing wrong with that. And I don't think us continentals will blow up the chunnel, nor will say Ryanair stop delivering cheap flights, after the Brexit. So I guess, from my personal point of view, not much will change - actually, for me things may improve, as the pound will drop in value, making my euro worth more in England.

But the poor misled people of the UK, whom thought they could restore the golden ages of the Empire by simply walking away from their friends and trading partners after decades of profiting from them - they will suffer. Wages will drop, taxes will rise and the infamous British bureacracy will reign once more, not bound by strict (and mostly fair!) EU Laws anymore.

It will eventually dawn upon the Brits that they did wrong. And when that happens, they will re-apply for membership. We will, of course, gracefully accept. But you'll need to adhere to a few new rules then. You will be a Schengen nation after that, no more stupid and totally unneccessary border controls. And no more fuzzing with your own then quite worthless money. We might even demand that you finally start driving at the proper side of the road :-P ..

a reply to: fusiondoe

Sincerest apologies but anyone who thinks Vince Cable and Tony Blair are leftist politicians lacks a certain amount of credibility from the get go.

The truth of the matter is that very few of our current crop of self-serving, self-advancing careerist politicians truly wish to leave the EU.
Which is why Teresa May et al have done absolutely nothing at all of real substance towards making real progress in facilitating this country's departure from the EU.

This will continue until some wishy washy, limp wristed compromise is reached and the globalist agenda will continue unabated.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

I love the UK, actually - mostly for it's traditions.

Thank you, there is much to like about the UK, as there is about continental Europe.

Why is it that Remainers and most of our continental friends think that those of us who want out of the EU are rabid nationalists seeking to further some sort of extreme right wing fascist agenda?
I'm anti EU, not anti European - if people can't see the difference then there's really no point in entering into any sort reasoned debated with them.

But the poor misled people of the UK, whom thought they could restore the golden ages of the Empire by simply walking away from their friends and trading partners after decades of profiting from them - they will suffer.

It's pretty simple and can be summed up in one word - SOVEREIGNTY

Parliament MUST be the ultimate authority in law making for the UK.

Most of us wish to maintain some sort of Free Trade Association with the EU - which was what the UK originally voted for back in 1975 - but we don't want political union.

Common defence policy? - Makes some sort of sense to me.

Wages will drop,

Wages are absolutely appalling now - the national minimum wage for over 24 years old is £7.50 an hour, in 1989 I was earning more than £8 an hour labouring.
Two years later I was working in a factory earning £10.50 an hour.
That was in North East England where wages are notoriously lower than most other places in the UK.

This country has gone backwards since political integration with the EU has increased. (Not all the EU's fault, but it has definitely been a major contributory factor).

...taxes will rise....

Why?

....and the infamous British bureacracy will reign once more,....

What?
And the EU isn't riddled with bureaucracy, corruption, ineptitude and incompetence?
All in the name of furthering the globalist agenda and vision Juncker and the like.

It will eventually dawn upon the Brits that they did wrong.

Expressing a wish and desire for self-determination can never be wrong!

And when that happens, they will re-apply for membership. We will, of course, gracefully accept. But you'll need to adhere to a few new rules then. You will be a Schengen nation after that, no more stupid and totally unneccessary border controls. And no more fuzzing with your own then quite worthless money.

If only Adolf had lived to see it.......

We might even demand that you finally start driving at the proper side of the road :-P ..

Never!

a reply to: fusiondoe

Those who hate the UK are free to leave whenever they please.
Your hatred, however, does not entitle you to demand that everyone else follows you.