F... E.U.

originally posted by: GeneralMayhem
a reply to: surnamename57

You sound like you punch below the belt surnamename57

I hate to make you feel disappointed, but I’m not that type of guy who uncritically accepts anything spewed from someone’s keyboard. I don’t belong to a mutual admiration society.

Sorry for the late reply, but better late than never.

After doing some research, it transpires that America, China, and Japan, who all trade with the eu, do not pay one red cent into the common fund, and America is Germany's biggest customer, just seems wrong to me.

a reply to: audubon

There is a plenty of discussion and argument on the four pages, so your non-participation has no bearing.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

If that did happen there could be a US/UK Commonwealth Military Alliance. A formidable force.

a reply to: CulturalResilience

Seriously.... I've been saying this for almost 10 years... but people keep going "but constitution....", "but sovereignty...", "but democracy..."

People CHOOSE to be naive and downright stupid.

But one thing that bugs me, I can't figure out wether I'm still angry over it. The problem being that every decision when dealing with massive republic, will have winners and losers.
The initial onset of the EU saw the wealthy countries as losers because it strains the welfare and wage levels when you suddenly introduce several million people to the potential workforce. And those who benefit from it are usually the top percentile of the population.

But now we are starting to deal with the shadow side of things, and that is like your example, refugees.

Once you say A can't choose not to say C after having said B.

So these countries HAVE TO take part in handling the crisis, if the rest are to keep the job markets open to all.

That's the essence of a functioning EU. You can't take part in only a certain portion of the good stuff and then stay our of the bad stuff.
So from that point of view that we are in fact dealing with a republic with one system for all, Hungary has no say in this.

The question remains; Is EU really the answer, or will we just end up seeing another Roman Empire come crashing down on us all, dividing us all once again?

The law makers and the upperclass will have us united under one flag. It will mean a more hungry workforce, forcing wages down, creating a serf class that will have to do the bidding of the upper class.
Is the alternative better? I can't figure it out....

I remember reading on this very site, a link to a page where there was detailed some talk from the very first meetings, before the economic federation turned into the EU.

It was said but one of the founding fathers back then, that they had to serve the idea of the EU in bits, then the people will willingly take it all in. If you force it upon them, they will rebel.

Sort of like the frog in the slowly heated water. It will be dead before it knows its boiling.

We have let this thing brewing for 50 years, we have done NOTHING to oppose it. So now it's here, or almost here. But we had the chance.

Our only option now, if we don't like what is coming is rebellion. But who will cast the first stone? As long as we have the threat of muslim extremists, the fear of those will do the bidding of those in power and keep us together against the common enemy, while they keep scheming towards a United States of Europe.

originally posted by: flice
a reply to: CulturalResilience

Seriously.... I've been saying this for almost 10 years... but people keep going "but constitution....", "but sovereignty...", "but democracy..."

People CHOOSE to be naive and downright stupid.

But one thing that bugs me, I can't figure out wether I'm still angry over it. The problem being that every decision when dealing with massive republic, will have winners and losers.
The initial onset of the EU saw the wealthy countries as losers because it strains the welfare and wage levels when you suddenly introduce several million people to the potential workforce. And those who benefit from it are usually the top percentile of the population.

But now we are starting to deal with the shadow side of things, and that is like your example, refugees.

Once you say A can't choose not to say C after having said B.

So these countries HAVE TO take part in handling the crisis, if the rest are to keep the job markets open to all.

That's the essence of a functioning EU. You can't take part in only a certain portion of the good stuff and then stay our of the bad stuff.
So from that point of view that we are in fact dealing with a republic with one system for all, Hungary has no say in this.

The question remains; Is EU really the answer, or will we just end up seeing another Roman Empire come crashing down on us all, dividing us all once again?

The law makers and the upperclass will have us united under one flag. It will mean a more hungry workforce, forcing wages down, creating a serf class that will have to do the bidding of the upper class.
Is the alternative better? I can't figure it out....

I remember reading on this very site, a link to a page where there was detailed some talk from the very first meetings, before the economic federation turned into the EU.

It was said but one of the founding fathers back then, that they had to serve the idea of the EU in bits, then the people will willingly take it all in. If you force it upon them, they will rebel.

Sort of like the frog in the slowly heated water. It will be dead before it knows its boiling.

We have let this thing brewing for 50 years, we have done NOTHING to oppose it. So now it's here, or almost here. But we had the chance.

Our only option now, if we don't like what is coming is rebellion. But who will cast the first stone? As long as we have the threat of muslim extremists, the fear of those will do the bidding of those in power and keep us together against the common enemy, while they keep scheming towards a United States of Europe.

That is a very interesting and insightful comment. I would be on there being some considerable truth in what you say.

originally posted by: surnamename57

originally posted by: Jonjonj

originally posted by: surnamename57

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
i was under the impression that you were implying that I would be considered an anarchist by those who were attempting to impose E.U. law on a sovereign nation. is that not what you were attempting to imply?
a reply to: surnamename57

Sovran nation? Being an EU country? You must have a wrong perception of what EU really is.

What does this mean? All nations in the EU are sovereign. There is no requirement to relinquish sovereignty to join is there?

If you accept their authority, you have got to play by their rules. Surely you retain control of your own internal affairs. However you give certain powers to a central regulatory body, not to mention some political decisions that may be determined by the Court of Justice of the European Union.

Look at what is being said here, and consider how any nation that accepts the supremacy of external powers can consider itself to be fully sovereign. It is a glaring contradiction in terms, and such blindness to this, as is writ large in the quoted comment, is how the insidiousness proliferates.

I am anti EU because of what it has become however the case in point, refugees and the immediate problem is only a symptom of what it's become.

The point of sharing those people fleeing the war is a wonderful idea of Europe, however the delivery of this ideal is also the perfect reason why a European idea has exceeded its remit.

If you asked the member states for a solution, before Merkel opened an invite to host every middle eastern person who could get here, a home in Europe, there could have been a European solution.

I am not suggesting this is the answer, but perhaps if the EU with its collection of members could have created a safe haven in the border countries or at least a program to ensure that refugees could be returned once their persecution has ended. Also, they should have stepped in to prevent it in the first instance.

The wrong solution was forced on the member states proving the Union was not an equal membership, those who paid more could bully those who paid less into a whimsical and IMO far left wing idea on the refugee crisis.

Europe should not be either left or right wing, but somehow it has become an apologising far left beast, and there lies the problem.

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
There is a plenty of discussion and argument on the four pages, so your non-participation has no bearing.

I didn't say I wouldn't participate, just that I was going to pass on replying to the gibberish from one particular poster.

Better luck next time.

a reply to: CulturalResilience

Not if they can impede the UK's Economy by delaying Brexit and no good trade deals.
NOT if the lawyers win against Trump, then it's BACK to democracy building by violent divide and conquer.

originally posted by: CulturalResilience

originally posted by: surnamename57

originally posted by: Jonjonj

originally posted by: surnamename57

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
i was under the impression that you were implying that I would be considered an anarchist by those who were attempting to impose E.U. law on a sovereign nation. is that not what you were attempting to imply?
a reply to: surnamename57

Sovran nation? Being an EU country? You must have a wrong perception of what EU really is.

What does this mean? All nations in the EU are sovereign. There is no requirement to relinquish sovereignty to join is there?

If you accept their authority, you have got to play by their rules. Surely you retain control of your own internal affairs. However you give certain powers to a central regulatory body, not to mention some political decisions that may be determined by the Court of Justice of the European Union.

Look at what is being said here, and consider how any nation that accepts the supremacy of external powers can consider itself to be fully sovereign. It is a glaring contradiction in terms, and such blindness to this, as is writ large in the quoted comment, is how the insidiousness proliferates.

I'm not going to go into details (it's not the place here) and use a pretentious and elaborate language to tell you that national sovereignty these days is an unexpressed form of authoritarianism. If you are clever enough to get to the bottom of this political scam (I don't think I am. I have gained knowledge by suffering. I come from an ex-communist country.), you will not shout in praise and pray to it.

If you are a tough individual, who is willing to need national sovereignty?

a reply to: audubon
In that case you should have replied to that poster directly. Those that engage their brains before hitting reply have much less need for luck.

Firstly let's look at sovereignty. The UK has never, ever lost its sovereignty. As if that's some magic place like Shangri La. Sovereignty? Sovereignty, BS. It means diddly squat to the ordinary man in the street.
Secondly, EU laws. NO and I mean NO EU laws were forced on any EU country, including the UK. EU "laws" were directives, think on that word, directives. At any time any EU country need not adopt any directive from the EU parliament.
As an aside you all talk of the EU parliament as if it was all run by "Johnny Foreigner". There were member voted on by the UK people. Just because those people voted on did everything in their power to disrupt and do nothing to benefit the UK people is no reason to blame the whole.
Thirdly refugees. The Uk was ASKED, yes ASKED to take in so many refugees. They were not forced.
Now you are all going to say "but we were forced". Lies and utter BS.
Proof. There are 2 glaring proofs that the UK government need not adopt ANY directive from the EU.
Now explain to me how we got away with not signing the Schengen agreement? THAT was a major "law" from the EU yet the UK government rejected it. Now that neatly shoots down all you BSers that say "we want our borders back". We never lost them to get back. Just because the government tacitly chose to go along with the agreement as if it had signed it you blame the EU.
Now the other little thing you choose to forget was the single currency "law" which the UK government also decided not to join. Were they forced to join? NO. With that little decision we get all the sovereignty BSers again, "oh we will lose our sovereignty, we will lose the Queens head on our coins". What a load of cobblers! To the ordinary man in the street it make not the slightest bit of difference what his monies called, or whos face is on it for that matter. It's what that coin will buy him. So we come down to these general lies that are put forward every day by the media and some posters who believe the BS.

a reply to: surnamename57
If English is not your first language then I would firstly like to compliment you on how well you make use of it. You do not specify which country you are from, but as one that has escaped the yoke of communism, beware of a new form of creeping oppression, that comes dressed up as freedom.

a reply to: crayzeed

The content of your reply is based on what the EU currently is, the majority of fear and concern is based on what the EU is becoming. The European Court said Hungary can be ordered to take refugees and that kind of announcement reinforces those fears. If there are penalties for any nation's non-compliance, then calling something a directive instead of a law makes it no less authoritarian.

a reply to: cavtrooper7
You're wrong. By your tag I would put you as a vet. Now think on this. You're on patrol in enemy territory and one of your team goes intentionally awol. What would you do for him? Would you give him anything he wants?
That's the UKs position. The UK jumped ship not thrown off. Now they want the EU to give them a good deal. Come on, no way are we going to come out of this clean. And the worst part about it is the people will believe the lies the politicians will come out with. Oh they're punishing us. They will make our lives miserable. They will ruin our economy. They will sour our deals with other non EU nations.
They've already started with some of this BS because they do not have the slightest clue what to do so they're floundering around travelling the world trying to do deals with anyone and just who knows what they are promising them to get those deals to make them look good.
As I said before ,nothing good will come out of this because of their arrogance. But time will tell.

a reply to: CulturalResilience
The content on ALL of my post was what the EU was and still is. Any government can refuse. But from directive to force is what any nation will try not just the EU. Look at what the US is trying on NK. Please tell me why the EU didn't force the UK on Schengen or the single currency? Because they can't. They can only threaten.

a reply to: crayzeed
I agree wholeheartedly with you on what you say regarding UK Politicians. As I said earlier this current crop are the weakest and most ineffective shower I have seen in my lifetime. The UK is leaving because of the result of the referendum and if the EU continues to be perceived as being engaged in power grabbing by mission creep, then the UK may not be the only one that demands a vote and subsequently departs.

a reply to: crayzeed
Perhaps, but it is the fear of that changing in the future that is at the root of the distrust and skepticism.

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
a reply to: surnamename57
If English is not your first language then I would firstly like to compliment you on how well you make use of it.

Thank you. I try hard.

'You do not specify which country you are from...'

Not worth it mentioning.