Does Trump and the GOP really think deporting the dreamers will play well for them long term???

a reply to: pavil

Did the GOP pay a price for opposing obama when they were out of power and the opposition party???

No.. in fact they cleaned up..

It's easy to pay lip service when your not in power. Everything you say is hypothetical..

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Xtrozero

Did you read the whole post?!??

In pretty sure I said that.or atleast I said that the most likely out come is trump reinstates it himself..

Why should I read past a inaccurate title... I read it but the title is very miss leading and not even to the point, so I commented mostly on that...

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Who benefits from that? Certainly not the American citizen. So now the Democrats should just act like the Republicans of the Obama era? The ones that they so derided for their tactics? Again, does that benefit the Average American Citizen the best way possible?

a reply to: pavil

It worked for those republicans...

They used that to win all 3 branches of government...

They are paying for it now... because all the demogogery has made it where what they have said as an opposition party , doesn't match reality...

They have based their party platform on..

"All the media, scientists, unions, teachers, college professors, celebrities, exc are all in a vast interconnected conspiracy to make republicans look bad and discredit Jesus!"


Which how anyone believes I have no idea.

They really can't jail hillary, because there is no evidence she commuted a crime... at least not a crime that isn't par for the course in Washington.. aka something they all do..

They can't kick EVERY illegal because the dreamers getting deported would piss off EVERYONE..

a reply to: Xtrozero

BWAHAHAHA

Did you read the title?!?!



What is inaccurate about asking "if the GOP thinks deporting the dreamers will play well long term"???

That isn't even able to be inaccurate since it is a question, not an assertion...

Since it is literally impossible for a question to be inaccurate, I am assuming you are just angry about the fact you don't actually have anything to add to the conversation..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Still didn't answer the main question: Does the American Citizen benefit the best way possible from obstruction or no input from one side of the aisle?

If Democrats play the same game as the Republicans did during Obama, then they AND the Country lose. I wasn't a huge fan of the Republicans actions during the Obama era and Obama wasn't really trying to include them either. I'm not a fan of "I'm in power and I don't care what you think". It's what's brought us to where we are. Each time a party comes into power they have to end up spending 2 years to dismantle the other party's previous work. Wasted energy that could be better spent moving things forward. Doesn't America benefit when both side have meaningful input into Legislation?

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: Xenogears

So you never read the actual requirements either?

Besides people had been sending children before the dream act and they will continue to do so after it.

People have been raping and looting since the beginning of time. Now imagine the gov. Actually paid you for committing rape or looting. Rates can be brought up or down depending on penalty or incentive. If you dont understand how incentivicing and disincentivicing works thats sad.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: pavil

I'm a realist...

I legit think that is the most efficient way to get whatever done..

Not at all, all the time..

The only reason dems care about immigration is because Mexicans vote for them..

I agree a carbon tax would just be squandered...

I just think the republican rebuttal of "all the scientists are in a vast conspiracy to implement a carbon tax.." is ridiculous..

I think all insurance is a scam and should be nonprofit. It is an unnecessary middle man who doesn't even preform a medical service, and they take .30$ off every dollar spent on healthcare..

What's the republican position?? Insurance companies rock!! We should double down on them..

I think automation is going to make human labor irrelevant, and we will have to go universal income, and that isn't political... it's been comming since we sharpened the first stick into a spear..

But what is the republican position?? Any gov assistance is the devil..

I think Most conservative positions are logical fallacies that wouldn't get past your average debate student..

I personally could careless about immigrants.. honestly, I think Americans need those jobs and such..

However the only reason I think the democrats are right is because absolutes are always stupid..

"No illegals get to stay.."

Well what if the best sniper on the planet is an illegal??

Or the best drone pilot?

Or best programmer??



Do you not use his talents!??

Maybe an illegal from Asia.


I wouldnt oppose IQ tests to determine which immigrants get to come here.

As for the dreamers we should throw out any that are a drain on the country with social welfare or have a serious criminal record.

Any that are actually contributing to society can stay.

But we have to get tough and stop the flow of illegals in. Not only can illegals get in but so can terrorists. And honestly what job can they get without high school or university degrees or even social security number? The lowly manual labor machines can do better in most cases.

a reply to: pavil

I'm not sure....

I legit think the Fox News type propaganda is more dangerous than most other variable...

It has people voting based on ridiculous conspiracy theories and other logical fallacies. Everything is either a slippery slope argument or over generation.. aka things that ANY debate student knows sounds good, but means nothing..


If they stay out of it until last minute the GOP is forced to admit they have they known deporting ALL illegals , rather than doing it on a case by case basis would be a disaster. Then the dems get all the credit for stopping a disaster on the eve of Armageddon..

The dems playing ball early helps the dreamers, but allows the propaganda to continue unchecked. The demogoges still get to look principled instead of full of it..


Then you have the game theory side of it..

If you have moral restrictions and your opponent doesn't. Your opponent wins EVERYTIME.

There is always an unmonitored grey area for the immoral party to find an advantage..



which would make the democrats irrelevant, and the demogoging republicans continue to monopolize the power.

Making the immoral party win repeatedly..


If the GOP wasn't making SUCH INSANE claims I would agree with you, but for example..


The GOP doesn't say " of course climate change is real, and the logistics behind a vast conspiracy where 99% of scientists are pushing a fake narrative are just laughable..but the democrats will only squander a carbon tax and it likely won't really help.."


Nooooo..

The GOP say " they are all in a vast conspiracy against the American people as part of Obamas super secret Muslim agenda!!!"

It's not that the media personalities honestly disagree with their policy position...
Nooo, its :

"Every global media source not hard core conservative, is in a vast conspiracy to make the GOP look bad and discredit Jesus.. for obama!! "


Dems say they wanna ban assault rifles..

The GOP doesn't debate that.. the pros and cons of assault rifles..

They debate "they are comming to go house to house and confiscate all the guns and ban them!!!"


Pizzagate..nuff said.

The dems do dumb stuff to, but maybe because they know they are having to fool the intellectuals and science community they wrap their propaganda around emotional stuff... adding black to an issue that isn't racially motivated..

But it's rarely an alternate universe conspiracy theory like with the GOP..


That conviently benefits the lobbiests that fund them..




(Separate point) you would literally be the only republican voter or celebrity who I have EVER seen say they thought the GOP obstructionism was wrong or a negative in. ANY WAY..

(Disclaimer : john McCain did actually speak against it now that I think about it, but no one else, and he became a GOP pariah)

It wasn't even that no one was holding theobstructuon against them.. it was MORE THAN BENEFICIAL!!! Countless ones won primaries because of saying their opponent would work with obama..

Them winning the house and senate is 100% attributed to their "obama is evil and actively on purpose truni to destroy America narrative..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I know plenty of Right leaning people who weren't down with just Obstruction and not trying to get any of their agenda into Legislation.

Not every in the non Democrat side is like you imply.

I'm asking , for the good of both Democrat and Republican voters for both sides to reach agreements on major issues where both sides feel they got their most important points included in legislation that doesn't have to be dismantled every time there is a shift in who controls Government. Radical Idea to be sure. Win/Wins benefit the country more than what we have had for the last few decades.

Can you live with something that gets you your primary Legislative goal if that means the other side gets the to do the same? Yes you won't like some of it, but your main idea becomes law.

Having Democrats and Republicans fight with each other on things that need to get done is pointless. Infrastructure for example. Everyone agrees we need to do more, right? Then figure out how to make that happen. You get this, I get that. Everybody wins. Sounds simplistic, bit can we start trying that route again?

originally posted by: Xenogears
If you dont understand how incentivicing and disincentivicing works thats sad.

I know how it works but the dream act doesn't allow for those who entered after the law was passed to apply so there is no incentive.

You would have known this if you had bothered to at least look at what the law really says. Guess you didn't have enough of an incentive.

originally posted by: pavil
Still didn't answer the main question: Does the American Citizen benefit the best way possible from obstruction or no input from one side of the aisle?

Of course not.

The problem is that you seem to have read someone pointing out how one side might act and took that as some sort of endorsement. A clinical analysis, as JoshuaCox called it, isn't cheering for one side or the other. It is an objective look at the situation.

a reply to: pavil

In a perfect world, where at least the same hard facts can be agreeed on I agree 1000%...

However imho that only works in a world where you don't have half the population duped and where everyone is playing by the same rules.


And I am barely over playing the conservative position..

And I really hate refering to it like that when really its way better to blame individuals.

But everything with true luv earth shattering consequences, the GOP is on the wrong side of..

The war on drugs.. prob the most damaging element to our society..

Take away the money from gangsters and give to to taxes kinda shady drs. And the gangs, cartels and over militeration of our police forces vanish..

They ramped up to combat extremely well funded organizations funded by the drug trade..

Rapists and murders don't require roughing up people in random traffic stops.


Private prisons.. lobbying to make hasher sentences for victimless crimes..

The patriot act..

Trickle down economics..

The wars in iraq and Afghanistan. (Wasn't Vietnam a republican too?)

Right to work states..

Out sourcing the jobs..

Defunding public schools..

Low min wage..

Cutting social security and Medicare..


All BROKEN positions that they all still double down on..

And the dirty jokers scare people into voting for them by pretending "they are comming for your guns" exc..

a reply to: daskakik

I'm not cheering for one side..

I could care less about obama, Hillary, immigrants, democrats, exc..

I detest propaganda.

And the propaganda I see from republican law makers and news personalities (not you tube commentors & random college students) ..

I live in the south, so maybe I get a double dose of republicans sludge..

But from what I see it is not an even sum game..

One side admits an issue exists , but likely steals what they can by funneling off tax dollars..

The other side denies the issue exists with crazy conspiracies and in fact says the problem is that people want to address the issue at all.. if we just deregulate the fat cats they will just decide to do right..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Neither Party really cares about any of those issues, lets be honest. Forget all the baggage or gridlock continues. If both constituents really started to call on each pressing issues (Taxes, Healthcare, Infrastructure and Immigration) I think workable compromises can be found on all of those. The other issues are just fluff. Both Parties don't seem to be doing anything about the issues you listed .

Those are distractions from things that affect the Average American a hell of a lot more. America is strongest when we can reach agreements that benefit Americans, not the Republicans or Democrats or more importantly, their Sugar Daddies/Pimps. Time we started demanding that out of our Politicians. I know this sounds pie in the sky, but it's the only way the country moves forward the best way possible.

BTW, Look who was in power for the majority of the Vietnam War, especially the crucial years..... Might surprise you.

No he doesn't agree,the order violates our laws that's why he told THEM to do it...DUH..

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
I'm not cheering for one side..

I know that is why I said:

A clinical analysis, as JoshuaCox called it, isn't cheering for one side or the other.

a reply to: pavil

Absolutely..


So ..

A) why didn't republicans do that??

B) why did the my only win and increase there power by doing that???


They have put them selves in a bad situation now.. pushing things that would be a disaster..

But have not paid any price.. it has only been a win.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: pavil

Absolutely..


So ..

A) why didn't republicans do that??

B) why did the my only win and increase there power by doing that???


They have put them selves in a bad situation now.. pushing things that would be a disaster..

But have not paid any price.. it has only been a win.

A) Don't know. Did our Country benefit from such selfish actions? I think not. Trump isn't really a Republican. I don't know how many times people have to be reminded of it. Why do you think the Republican machine was against him in the Primaries and how the Congress holds their nose at his ideas? I detest most RINO's and the majority of them are just that. I just happen to think the Democrats are even worse overall. There are a few I like on both sides. I would have been very tempted to vote for Sanders, were he an option. I'm not the only Trump voter who would say that, but then again, were all Nazis, so there's that.

B) It was a combination of Republicans being Stupidly Obstructionist on Everything and the The Obama Admin not truly reaching out across the aisle till the Tea Party Forced both sides hands. It's not something I wish to emulate.

Not sure what you are getting at with the second part of that post.

a reply to: pavil

Who started it..

Who spent most of the time cleaning up the mess is irrelevant..(it might have been a dem lol.. will have to look it up)


No question we are at our strongest when unified.


However, that is not what has won... what's won is crazy talk.

And I'm not talking about democrats losing. Republicans not willing to go all conspiracy theory have lost too


Let's be real.. kasik would probably have been the best option on either side.. even if just to reward the one republican who was being an adult..

I wish I could say that everyone just doing what is right is possible, but I think the end would just get steam rolled and then we got nothing but ted cruzes..