There's an important social reason incomes aren't rising in America

originally posted by: toysforadults
I am attending WGU here is a list of the certifications requirement's I need in order to get the degree:

• A+ (CompTIA); Cloud Essentials (CompTIA); Network+ (CompTIA); Security+ (CompTIA); Project+ (CompTIA); ITIL Foundation Certification (Axelos); Linux Essentials (LPI); Certified Internet Webmaster–Site Development Associate (CIW-SDA); Cisco Certified Network Associate (Cisco); Cisco Certified Network Associate – Security (Cisco); Cisco Certified Design Associate (Cisco)

My lab is 2 2811's, an ASA and a 3750 L3 capable switch. Oh don't let me forget Kali Linux. I also have to take a Python course which I like Python.

I've looked at that school because their pricing model is similar to a grad school I'm considering. Trying to decide if it's worth it or not.

Anyways, most of those certs aren't going to get you anywhere. LPI detracts from your resume, all the CompTIA stuff is useless. Cisco certs are useful, but only if you're configuring networks... if you actually want to do network security you have to learn how to break into networks, and they're not teaching that (one class in Kali is nowhere close).

Edit: I took a class last semester on cyber security. It was basically run as a survey of various software based aspects of security, but I think it's a pretty good benchmark to rate a program. At my university, all programming courses (in our computer science section... business programming like MIS has a different philosophy) are effectively honors classes. You're taught a brief overview of the theory, and then exected to derive the solutions (and to do so without any research materials).

So for example, in the initial weeks of the course we went over cryptography where we were expected to develop the mathematics and algorithm to recreate AES and RSA. At another point we were simply given the theory of cipher block chaining, and expected to figure out the attack and reverse engineer it.

Another time, there was an insecure webcam set up on our universities computer network. Our job was to find this webcam, then start extracting data from it (it was motion and sound activated) such as when people were walking by, when it picked up noises, where it picked noises up from. Then physically locate it, using any information we could derive (for example, it was next to a window, so using light levels and shadows to determine orientation and elevation), and then explain where it was, alongside how we broke into it.

These things should be basics, yet I've run into countless security people who can't even do something as simple as secure form input. Even ATS doesn't secure itself against SQL attacks.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to get a job without knowing these things, afterall few non technical people (who make the majority of the hiring decisions) are even aware they don't know that they don't know what to look for. But at the same time, going back to the broader context of this thread, if you want to be competitive for a good job, you need to know more than the baseline of what an average cirriculum teaches.

originally posted by: starviego
As though we don't have enough competition:

4 Million Migrants Legally Entered America’s Labor Market in 2016:

investmentwatchblog.com...
Of these people some 1.1 million were new (legal) immigrants, 2.3 million arrived with temporary work permits, and 500,000 were outsourcing visa workers (for example H-1B visas). This, of course, does not include the influx of illegal immigrants into the country

I've grown up and lived my entire life being told by people in positions of authority, of American Exceptionalism. If all we can do, with our better schools and work ethic is manage to lose out on jobs to illegals who usually lack any job skills, and certainly lack the advantages of being legal... then maybe we're not so exceptional afterwards and it's time we get replaced by our betters.

Or maybe our population should stop expecting that a society that now requires more specialization can get by with the same number of years of education that a generation or two ago had, especially after taking into account just how much more there is to learn these days.

a reply to: Aazadan

I don't kow where you're getting your info from but the Cisco certs are great. CCNA and CCNA-Security are great entry level certs that will get you interviews.

a reply to: toysforadults

LOL. The young'ns whining about not getting what they think they should... Do you think the buggy builders or the horse whip people complained? I'm sure they did. As well as every job that was replaced by technology or by a more skilled worker since the dawn of hard work. Nothing is promised. Nothing is deserved. You have to get what you can get when you work for it. Not even your happiness is worth taking into account because I'm trying to survive better than you. Sorry guy, I have a family to feed and I'm struggling like you to make ends meet. Nothing personal, just tired of the younger generations blaming the older for their problems.

a reply to: Aazadan

Nobody said there weren’t high paying jobs anymore but there aren’t nearly as many SECURE high paying jobs anymore, or not as many as it use to be.

You have to look at macro statistics not only your own experience. Look at both.

I worked for HP when all of a sudden the jobs went to India and the Philippines and when you called support you got a guy with a thick accent who called himself Frank or Johnny. Who’s he trying to fool?

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: Aazadan

I don't kow where you're getting your info from but the Cisco certs are great. CCNA and CCNA-Security are great entry level certs that will get you interviews.

Great would guarantee a job. CCNA is only ok.

If you only shoot for the qualifications to get an entry level job, you won't get even that. That was my point, you have to do more than you used to. There's a lot of reasons at play as to why, but the bottom line is... what was once a competitive set of job skills no longer is.


Edit: www.reddit.com...

Those guys are a good place to figure out what certs you should be going for.

In the IT field the best thing is experience. Get on a staff as an intern or you get a job through a friend, those are two of the most often instances.

I’ve seen many of what we call paper system engineers. They only last when their own company sponsors them.

The ideal situation is when your working, get all the certs you can.

Years ago I passed A plus in 10 minutes, after working on the job getting the experience

Since then I’ve got 100’s of certs in all levels of IT.

I can get a job anywhere in the country anytime I want.

Get all the certs you can along with the experience and you can make 100, 200 grand if you want

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Aazadan

Nobody said there weren’t high paying jobs anymore but there aren’t nearly as many SECURE high paying jobs anymore, or not as many as it use to be.

You have to look at macro statistics not only your own experience. Look at both.

I worked for HP when all of a sudden the jobs went to India and the Philippines and when you called support you got a guy with a thick accent who called himself Frank or Johnny. Who’s he trying to fool?

The jobs are there, you just have to offer more, and usually at a lower price.

What we have in the US is a lot of people who see the effort their parents put in, in order to establish or advance a career and are upset that even though they've put in comprable effort/investment, they aren't getting the same returns. I'm honestly unsure if people are rightly or wrongly feeling shafted, but they are.

Take my own story, 5 degrees and soon to be 6. In order to land an internship. I'm an extreme outlier in education, and compensation for my job title/experience, but it still shows what's necessary these days.

That said, my outlook on tech is that the point of technology is to lower the barrier to entry on jobs, by automating the parts that are either slow (human labor) or prone to mistakes (human error). The resulting impact of this, is that jobs become easier to perform over time. Naturally, this also means that competition for jobs will also go up over time. Tech sees these changes first, which is why being in tech is a life of being a scholar, but other industries see it too as technology is adopted.

Rightly or wrongly, you have to do more to hold the same job that you did 20 years ago. And to make the same pay, you have to do much more. But... that's called progress.

a reply to: Aazadan

I don't call that progress. It’s a political issue. I’m telling you powerful forces created, intervened to STOP the rise of the middle class.

No more security, no more jobs with a future

They’ve raised the dog eat dog level.

It was a deliberate plan.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: Aazadan

I don't kow where you're getting your info from but the Cisco certs are great. CCNA and CCNA-Security are great entry level certs that will get you interviews.

Great would guarantee a job. CCNA is only ok.

If you only shoot for the qualifications to get an entry level job, you won't get even that. That was my point, you have to do more than you used to. There's a lot of reasons at play as to why, but the bottom line is... what was once a competitive set of job skills no longer is.

Edit: www.reddit.com...

Those guys are a good place to figure out what certs you should be going for.

Welp, I hate to break it to ya bud but unless you go to one of the best universities in the country your starting from the bottom.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Aazadan

I don't call that progress. It’s a political issue. I’m telling you powerful forces created, intervened to STOP the rise of the middle class.

No more security, no more jobs with a future

They’ve raised the dog eat dog level.

It was a deliberate plan.

Totally agree, people killing each other over $10 an hour jobs these days.

This is a plan, a deliberate social engineering

Creating a middle class is always a choice, and by embracing Reaganomics and cutting taxes on the rich, we decided back in 1980 not to have a middle class within a generation or two. George H.W. Bush saw this, and correctly called it "Voodoo Economics." And we're still in the era of Reaganomics - as President Obama recently pointed out, Reagan was a successful revolutionary. This, of course, is exactly what conservatives always push for. When wealth is spread more equally among all parts of society, people start to expect more from society and start demanding more rights. That leads to social instability, which is feared and hated by conservatives, even though revolutionaries and liberals like Thomas Jefferson welcome it.

www.alternet.org...

originally posted by: toysforadults
Welp, I hate to break it to ya bud but unless you go to one of the best universities in the country your starting from the bottom.

Starting from the bottom does not mean only having an edudcation aimed at the bottom. That's merely the point you work up from... you'll have nothing to work with unless you also have skills that reach beyond entry level.

a reply to: Aazadan

CCNA is fine for the job I will be doing trust me I am not starting at a CCIE level and without experience networking professionals will be wondering how I got it.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Aazadan

I don't call that progress. It’s a political issue. I’m telling you powerful forces created, intervened to STOP the rise of the middle class.

No more security, no more jobs with a future

They’ve raised the dog eat dog level.

It was a deliberate plan.

That's called globalization. More competition for jobs, drives wages lower. All while the skills necessary for those jobs continue to decline.


It's one of the biggest failures of our schools. They aim skills at entry level, without preparing them to climb out of entry level.

20 years or so ago the biggest employer was my ex employer GM, who with benefits paid 50 dollars an hour

Now guess who the biggest employer is today?

Wall mart that pays 10 dollars an hour!

This is NOT a natural evolution of our economics.

Reagan cut taxes for the rich from 70 to 90 percent to 28 percent.

Ever since then we have evolved to stagnation. The middle class has been destroyed.

Globalization is a neo liberal extension of reaganomics. Corporations and the rich were given such a tax break that they were able to accumulate vast amounts of money to play with.


In 2007-8 that led directly to a depression through the massive amount of real estate derivatives.


When the rich were saddled with high tax rates, 70, 80, 90 percent they couldn’t do much damage.


What that means is after a few million a persons rate goes so high they won’t screw up the economy because they don’t have the play money.


When the tax rate for the rich was over 70 percent from the 40’s to the 80’s the American economy rose higher than any time in its history

a reply to: Willtell

Caustion/ correlation what's that saying?

Does correlation = causation?

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: Willtell

Caustion/ correlation what's that saying?

Does correlation = causation?

Look the middle class was rising like a phoenix because of the greatness and fairness of policies from the 40’s and 50’s. Primarily to pay for the war and help the Europeans after the war.


Look at the massive landscape of the infrastructure of America. All that was created from the 40’s to the 80’s and then it stopped. WHY

All of a sudden we were told taxes were bad and all of a sudden our infrastructure began to crumble.

The irony is that taxes for the poor and middle class DID NOT FALL

Only taxes on the vast wealth of the rich fell

Taxes on the rich were gutted

Cause and affect indeed

a reply to: Willtell

We were also the only industrialized nation left with a manufacturing base after ww2