Did we not learn??? US Navy???

I'm sorry, but we've had two inexcusable collisions of Navy cruisers lately.

Back in Oct of 2000 the USS Cole had her spine broken by 2-3 guys in a raft. The stories of her rescue are legend. Did we not learn from that???

Recently, we've had two Naval vessels collided with simple cargo ships, and crippled beyond operational.

Some of our most sophisticated Naval warships have been completely decimated by simple things.

What are we funding?????

I'm sorry, but what are you doing, US Navy...have you lost your mind(s)????

How could this ever be???

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

That's like saying the Air Force hasn't learned from previous crashes, because they still crash. Accidents happen. It's that simple. There is no way possible to eliminate accidents, no matter how many lessons are learned. In one case though, the ship broke in a busy waterway, and they had a period where they were out of the crew's control.

Honestly, there are no more excuses left. All those excuses were used up back in 2000. Navy, you have no excuse now!!

You have no excuse for an AEGIS guided MISSLE Cruiser to be absolutely decimated by a cargo ship...TWICE!!

How many BILLION (taxpayer) dollars do these things cost????? How long should we have to tolerate this????

And just to have some simpleton cargo ship kill dozens of US Sailors and cripple a ship like this...it's just COMPLETELY INEXCUSABLE!!!

WTH??????

a reply to: Zaphod58

All due respect, BUT...BS, Zaph!!

ETA...a plane crash is a whole lot different than the crippling of billion dollar AEGIS missile cruiser!! (with a rowboat or some slow moving cargo scow).

...and YOU know it!!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Have you served?

Seriously, not being sarcastic, just wondering if you have served in any capacity (like I and others have here) with the US Navy?

Are you a NAVSEA employee?

You're more than welcome to your opinion of course, but as Zaph said: accidents do happen. Sometime things can go beyond our control. Some times the timing is horrible and makes things look bad.

Gee, look, it's 2017.....there is no damn excuse for cars to be crashing! Absolutely asinie for it to happen!

WTF is going on with our aircraft (military and commercial) damn things are falling out of the sky! It's 2017! NO EXCUSES!

Nothing is perfect. Every system has something that can go wrong with it.

You can cook the same meal over and over and over.....but sometimes something will happen and the meal will go wrong.

Crap happens. You learn from it and move on.....until more crap happens (in a different way), then you learn from it too.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Simply put...No.

I've worked in support of US Military (as a contractor) for decades, but I have not personally served.

So, there is your answer. Plain and simple. NO.

So...how does this answer, and your question, affect the question asked in my OP???

(OH, and BTW, I will be glad to tell you how I've done what I've done via PM if you wish, but it's not public info...hopefully you will understand).

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Where humans are involved, accidents will happen.

Especially when it comes to maritime vessels.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

First off, they aren't Aegis Cruisers, they're Destroyers.

Second, it was an analogy, and it's appropriate.

Third, no, it's not BS. There is no possible way to remove any possible accident. Period. You can have the most advanced platform known to man, and it can do everything from slicing onions to tracking asteroids as they go past Earth, and it can still have an accident. As long as there are people involved, in any step of the way, there will be accidents. Period.

a reply to: grey580

That quickly??? With vessels traveling that slowly....in such a short period of time????

These are the guardians of the universe; these vessels are the BEST of the absolute best!! That's how they were advertised, that's how they were funded...and DAMMIT, that's how I expect them to be (as should everyone else!!)

NO, I'm sorry...it's just not acceptable.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

No armor plating is going to stand up to a quarter million tons or more hitting you broadside.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

They're not the best of the best. They're damn good, but even if they were the most advanced ship ever built, that doesn't make them unbreakable, or their crews incapable of making mistakes, or anything else. Accidents. Will. Happen.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Well, first you're harping on the wrong thing. You keep going on about how it's a Aegis ship.......

Aegis is a weapons platform. I know. I used to work on the system the Navy used prior to it. Aegis has absolutely nothing to do with a ship's propulsion and navigation systems.

What does a ship like that have?

A engineering propulsion system that turns screws to push the ship forward (and pull it backwards), pretty much in the same manner as all ships have had for the last century or so.......not much has changed. Screws have gotten better (with subs is very much better......mostly for stealth). That is still how you make a ship move. Screws turning in the water.

What makes the screw turn has changed some. Used to be coal fed boilers....then by WW2 it was oil fired boilers.

That was the main stay until nuclear power came about.....but only aircraft carriers, CGNs and subs got those. Small destroyers still used oil fed boilers, that produced steam that turned the screws of a ship...and generated electrical power for the ship.

Then in the 1980s, we started to replace those boilers with engines, specifically: four GE LM 2500 gas turbines. So that was a step up. No longer did you have to fire up boilers and bring a lot of water to steam to generate power.

Steerage: ships use rudders to turn. Some newer ships turn the screws.

The Arleigh Burke destroyers don't. They still use rudders..........and rudders are over thousands of years old tech. Ain't changed too much.

Navigation.......in the old, old days it was all sextants. Shooting the stars and sun....with really good maps and a good ships clock.
Then Radio helped with navigation by allowing a ship to triagulate it position.

Then GPS came a long and that's really helped out.

But guess what? We still learn how to use a sextant and how to navigate the old way.....just in case.

Now...what could go wrong?

Anything. Even if you have the best maintenance program and the best training for your people to do that maintenance: things break. Things fail. Sometimes it's an easy fix........sometimes it's a really hard fix.

Sometimes things break at the worst possible time. Say hi to Murphy's Law. It happens. I've had it happen to me many times in life.

So....yah....billion dollar ship with a very fancy weapons system.......but pretty much a regular propulsion / steerage / navigation system that most ships use.

You can still run aground (sand bars do shift around), you can still hit a whale (yes...yes you can....and let me tell you something, hit a whale with a ship....have you seen what a deer can do to a car?), you can still have people make mistakes and go the wrong way, and most importantly:

things on a ship can still break and make you sit there helplessly in the water. Even in 2017.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Okay, let's look at the facts...

USS Fitzgerald...cost $1.5 BILLLION dollars (today's dollars)

This destroyer class was originally designed to defend against Soviet aircraft, cruise missiles and nuclear attack submarines. The Arleigh Burke-class destroyer was intended to be used in high-threat areas to conduct anti-anti-submarine, anti-surface and strike operations.

-Yahoo

The destroyer class is regarded by defense experts as the most capable and survivable ocean surface combatant. ...

-Yahoo

So, I'll give up the Aeigis quote, but I still think I read of upgrades to this class for the Arliegh Burkes, but anyway.

I disagree...these ships, under any situation, should be able to .... GET OUT OF THE WAY!!

And here you go, just to give you a better idea: this is what moves and steers those destroyers:



As you can see: not much has changed in about a century for the most part.

If something goes down and the screws stop turning....the ship will stop moving.

If something goes wrong with the motor hydraulic system that moves the rudders (and yes, it is possible), then you can't steer the ship anymore.

Go ahead, guys...stick up for these 'incidents' as just "human accidents"! If you all believe this speaks well of the greatest blue water Navy on Earth...well, I'm not sure what to tell ya!!

That was very good! Well presented

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Well, first you're harping on the wrong thing. You keep going on about how it's a Aegis ship.......

Aegis is a weapons platform. I know. I used to work on the system the Navy used prior to it. Aegis has absolutely nothing to do with a ship's propulsion and navigation systems.

What does a ship like that have?

A engineering propulsion system that turns screws to push the ship forward (and pull it backwards), pretty much in the same manner as all ships have had for the last century or so.......not much has changed. Screws have gotten better (with subs is very much better......mostly for stealth). That is still how you make a ship move. Screws turning in the water.

What makes the screw turn has changed some. Used to be coal fed boilers....then by WW2 it was oil fired boilers.

That was the main stay until nuclear power came about.....but only aircraft carriers, CGNs and subs got those. Small destroyers still used oil fed boilers, that produced steam that turned the screws of a ship...and generated electrical power for the ship.

Then in the 1980s, we started to replace those boilers with engines, specifically: four GE LM 2500 gas turbines. So that was a step up. No longer did you have to fire up boilers and bring a lot of water to steam to generate power.

Steerage: ships use rudders to turn. Some newer ships turn the screws.

The Arleigh Burke destroyers don't. They still use rudders..........and rudders are over thousands of years old tech. Ain't changed too much.

Navigation.......in the old, old days it was all sextants. Shooting the stars and sun....with really good maps and a good ships clock.
Then Radio helped with navigation by allowing a ship to triagulate it position.

Then GPS came a long and that's really helped out.

But guess what? We still learn how to use a sextant and how to navigate the old way.....just in case.

Now...what could go wrong?

Anything. Even if you have the best maintenance program and the best training for your people to do that maintenance: things break. Things fail. Sometimes it's an easy fix........sometimes it's a really hard fix.

Sometimes things break at the worst possible time. Say hi to Murphy's Law. It happens. I've had it happen to me many times in life.

So....yah....billion dollar ship with a very fancy weapons system.......but pretty much a regular propulsion / steerage / navigation system that most ships use.

You can still run aground (sand bars do shift around), you can still hit a whale (yes...yes you can....and let me tell you something, hit a whale with a ship....have you seen what a deer can do to a car?), you can still have people make mistakes and go the wrong way, and most importantly:

things on a ship can still break and make you sit there helplessly in the water. Even in 2017.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

So, the only way to be the best is to never have an accident? In that case, we should just park our ships and we'd be the best ever.

The Thunderbirds and Blue Angels are made up of the best pilots in their services, and they have accidents. The F-22 and F-35 are some of the most advanced planes ever built, and they still have accidents. You can try to get around it all you want, but if people are involved, there will be accidents. You simply can not get around that no matter how hard you try.

a reply to: visitedbythem

YAY...awesome post!

a reply to: Zaphod58

Did I say any of that???

NO! Those are your words!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Uhm....I don't think you understand how ships move.

These destroyers displace 8,300 to 9,500 TONS.....you just don't "floor the accelerator and get up and go".

That's like expecting a huge semi rig, loaded down with concrete blocks to accelerate like a sports car: ain't going to happen.

Can they go fast? Oh yes.....quite fast.

Can they suddenly move out of the way from a very slow speed or dead stop? No....no they can not.

These ships are not speed boats. They are not fast hover craft.

Maybe if you'd of served on a ship, you'd have a better idea. Trust me when I say you ain't "flooring it" to get out of there.........