Preserving Confederate Statues Isn’t Like Preserving Auschwitz

a reply to: neo96

Learn some damned history:

Officially named Camp Sumter, the most notorious Civil War stockade was hastily constructed in early 1864 near the town of Andersonville in southwest Georgia. The number of Union soldiers held near Richmond had swelled with the breakdown of prisoner exchange agreements, posing a threat to the Confederate capital's security and taxing Virginia's already limited resources.

In late February, Federal prisoners began to be transferred to the still-unfinished Georgia facility. By July, Andersonville, built to accommodate up to 10,000 captured soldiers, was jammed with over 32,000, almost all enlisted men. The open-air stockade, enclosed by 20 foot-high log walls, grew to 26 acres, but remained horribly overcrowded and conditions became more and more intolerable. Running in the middle of the camp was a stagnant, befouled stream, absurdly named Sweet Water Branch, used as a sewer as well as for drinking and bathing. There were no barracks; prisoners were forbidden to construct shelters, and while some did erect tents and flimsy lean-tos, most were left fully exposed to the elements. Medical treatment was virtually nonexistent.

With the South barely able to feed its own men, the prisoners, who were supposed to get the same rations as Confederate soldiers, starved-receiving rancid grain and perhaps a few tablespoons a day of mealy beans or peas.

The poor food and sanitation, the lack of shelter and health care, the crowding, and the hot Georgia sun all took their toll in the form of dysentery, scurvy, malaria, and exposure.

During the summer months, more than 100 prisoners died every day.

Andersonville Prison

originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: Gryphon66

They weren't installed by governments.,

They were paid for by private citizens.

Mostly relatives of the long departed.

Which ones? Got a list? I doubt it.

Which ones aren't installed on public lands and are now the property of local governments?

None. You know you're wrong. Government speech is not protected.

Face it. You made a stupid comparison.

Too little. Too damn late

Two statues? What about all the others? Are you really upset about what local citizens want to do with two statues?

Is government property a free speech act protected by the First or not Neo?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Sublimecraft

Ever heard of Andersonville?

Yes

a reply to: Gryphon66

Local ?

When does a group that's claim to fame hating on a gay guy from California mean LOCAL in Virginia ?

a reply to: Gryphon66

So how does a prison 'equal' statues ?

Whose throwing red herrings?

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: fiverx313

A federal law raised the status of Confederate soldiers to the same level as US vets. It allows for gravestones and statues to be erected and they are protected just as any other war memorial is.

All confederate soldiers were pardoned by the President with the exception of political leadership and some generals.

This is not like 2 countries going to war and one country winning. The war was with ourselves and you will not find another moment in time where our civil war is repeated for the same reasons.

It is our history. For better or worse, it is our history and we need to own it.

Not hide it.

Now that's actually a good argument. Bravo. Do you have a reference to the law you're talking about?

Public Law 85-425

"SEC. 410.
The Administrator shall pay to each person who served in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States of America during the Civil War a monthly pension in the same amounts and subject to the same conditions as would have been applicable to such

38 USC 2306 - Headstones, markers, and burial receptacles

Congressional Appropriations Act, FY 1901, signed 6 June 1900

Congress passed an act of appropriations for $2,500 that enabled the “Secretary of War to have reburied in some suitable spot in the national cemetery at Arlington, Virginia, and to place proper headstones at their graves, the bodies of about 128 Confederate soldiers now buried in the National Soldiers Home near Washington, D.C., and the bodies of about 136 Confederate soldiers now buried in the national cemetery at Arlington, Virginia.”

(P.L. 38, 59th Congress, Chap. 631-34 Stat. 56)

Authorized the furnishing of headstones for the graves of Confederates who died, primarily in Union prison camps and were buried in Federal cemeteries.

U.S. Public Law 810, Approved by 17th Congress 26 February 1929

(45 Stat 1307 – Currently on the books as 38 U.S. Code, Sec. 2306)

This law, passed by the U.S. Congress, authorized the “Secretary of War to erect headstones over the graves of soldiers who served in the Confederate Army and to direct him to preserve in the records of the War Department the names and places of burial of all soldiers for whom such headstones shall have been erected.”

U.S. Public Law 85-425: Sec. 410 Approved 23 May 1958

Confederate Iron Cross

(US Statutes at Large Volume 72, Part 1, Page 133-134)

The Administrator shall pay to each person who served in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States of America during the Civil War a monthly pension in the same amounts and subject to the same conditions as would have been applicable to such person under the laws in effect on December 31, 1957, if his service in such forces had been service in the military or naval forces of the United States.

Also several confederate generals actually went on to fight in the Spanish-American war. Some of those monuments, of "Confederate Generals", were erected in honor of their actions in the Spanish-American war and not the Civil war.

Also the SCOTUS ruling in Texas vs. White dealt solely with the status of Confederate states and how, even though the confederate states "seceded", they were still considered a part of the United States. As a side note and in reference to California thinking they can secede, the court ruled a state cannot secede unilaterally. A vote must be held, both in the state in question as well as all other states in the Union.

I’m not into comparison of the suffering people have faced.

Both the Nazis and the US slave holders were both evil institutions.

In-fact the slaveholders might be worst only because people seem to look at them less judgmental.

Imagine your mother, wife and daughter being raped at will by these slaveholders and you cant do dam thing and if you do you'll be killed

And you want statues erected to people who wanted to preserve this way of life?


Their equivalent to Nazis and modern day ISIS as far as I’m concerned

If people cant see that then their blind!

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: Gryphon66

Local ?

When does a group that's claim to fame hating on a gay guy from California mean LOCAL in Virginia ?

Consider the statue of Lee in Charlottesville VA. Is it on public land? Is it public property?

Is public property a speech act protected by the First Amendment, or not?

see Confederate Generals posed triumphantly on horses.

Well that right there's the problem.

@Gryphon66

"Turn you to the stronghold, ye prisoners of hope"

Speaking of Andersonville, would you (personally) like to see this statue remain or be destroyed?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Awesome. There's a Confederate Memorial Cemetary in Marietta GA. I grew up nearby.


What you just showed me provides for pensions for former Confederates and protections and provisions for their burial places.

How does that apply to he statues of Lee, Jackson, etc.? Take into account that I know that President Carter pardoned Robert E. Lee.

If a municipality, county or State government on which lands these statues stand and whose property they are decides to remove them ... why do any of us have a complaint about it? As long as it's not a gravesite?

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
@Gryphon66

"Turn you to the stronghold, ye prisoners of hope"

Speaking of Andersonville, would you (personally) like to see this statue remain or be destroyed?

My position is to leave the disposition of statues to the folks who own them ... the towns, cities, counties and States. I don't presume to speak for others in general.

But now ... Andersonville Prison. Human beings were treated as badly by the Confederacy as many who survived Auschwitz.

May I remind you of your earlier comment?

originally posted by: Sublimecraft

Also, I assume the OP has visited Auschwitz, if not then denial is an ugly thing, so, also put this in your pipe and smoke it - there is absolutely zero comparison.........

Do you still want to present that the way Nazis treated people and the way Confederates treated people are completely unrelated as you say here?

What kind of Americas are proud of a tradition of oppression and slavery and wants to commemorate people who started a war that killed 600,000 Americans to preserve that system?

How is one going to be proud of that?

If they were my ancestors, and some of them may be my ancestors,
I wouldn’t be proud of them; I’d be ashamed of being related to them

And I dam sure wouldn’t erect a statue in their honor

a reply to: fiverx313

I have no problems with the statues being removed or destroyed...as long as the Democratic party owns them and the Confederacy, first.

Oh, and they also need to admit they are *really* just trying to bury the evidence of their slavery-supporting, white supremacist history while trying to project it onto today's Republicans. It's just more exploitation and oppression of black Americans. And let's put the 'Southern Democrats turned Republican' crap to rest, too. It's has allowed the Democratic party to dodge their shameful 200 year history.

The Democratic party needs to step up and own their shameful legacy and their current racist methods of getting votes.

Nothing about the effort to get rid of these statues comes from a place of 'good.' I don't buy it for a moment. Black Americans will not be better off because of this and that is a fact.

ETA: If any symbol of slavery and white supremacy needs destroying or retirement...it's the Democratic party. They need to go, and that needs to happen first.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Consider the statue of Lee in Charlottesville VA. Is it on public land? Is it public property?

If someone actually bothered to read those sources.

Paul Goodloe a private citizen bought and paid for both lee park and the statue.

Donated to the city.

Stood there for 100 years with no one whining about it until the social justice warriors last YEAR.

a reply to: Gryphon66

If its erected by the State / local government it falls under their laws. If it is erected by the Federal government or is recognized by the federal government (state monuments that became Federal monuments / listed on the Historic registry it falls under the same laws that protect war memorials of the United States of America.

Lee was actually anti slavery and pro Union. He was offered a command in the Union army and declined, opting to fight for his home state of Virginia.

There is a terrible war coming, and these young men who have never seen war cannot wait for it to happen, but I tell you, I wish that I owned every slave in the South, for I would free them all to avoid this war.
- General Robert E. Lee

As was pointed out some of those statues of Confederate Generals might be in relation to their service n the Spanish-American war and not the Civil war. The status of those statues need to be confirmed before some idiot destroys them.

originally posted by: flyingdutchman2112
Yeah because they use Auschwitz to exaggerate and stretch the truth of what really happened in the holohoax. How about 500,000 people dying from experiement s, summary executions, typhus and starvation instead of the 6 gorillion.

I briefly entertained that idea. Very, very briefly. The Holocaust happened though.

An interesting read. (Not about Auschwitz)

I couldn't say if the 6 Million number is accurate. But it's pretty clear to me it was not as small a number as 500,000. Police Battalion 101 (which the above linked book is about) was responsible for at least 38,000 deaths and 45,200 deportations to labor/death camps.

That was just a single battalion.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I don't think it's fair to categorize Lee as anti-slavery. He owned slaves and he's on the record as saying that slavery was visited on Africans because they were an inferior culture that needed to be tested.

Back to the point though ... do you know how many of the statues in question are Federal war memorials?

What would you guess the percentage breakdown is ... as many of them were raised in support of segregation and in opposition to Federal imposition on the Southern States?

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: flyingdutchman2112
Yeah because they use Auschwitz to exaggerate and stretch the truth of what really happened in the holohoax. How about 500,000 people dying from experiement s, summary executions, typhus and starvation instead of the 6 gorillion.

I briefly entertained that idea. Very, very briefly. The Holocaust happened though.

An interesting read. (Not about Auschwitz)

I couldn't say if the 6 Million number is accurate. But it's pretty clear to me it was not as small a number as 500,000. Police Battalion 101 (which the above linked book is about) was responsible for at least 38,000 deaths and 45,200 deportations to labor/death camps.

That was just a single battalion.

Not to mention the fact the idiot ass Nazis kept records of their deeds.

a reply to: neo96

If someone actually bothered to read those sources.

If you had, you would've noticed his name is Paul Goodloe McIntire. I mean you even quoted sections with his actual name in them but you keep misnaming him. Lol