Confederate Symbols, White Priviledge and Racism.

a reply to: Nikola014

But, the only thing that this shows is that people are fairly uneducated. And, I'd bet you that 99 out of those 100 people, would have no idea what Swastika represents, only that it's "something that was used by the Nazis".

The meaning changes over time.

The swastika is no longer a Indian religious symbol, in the west as soon as the Nazi's started slapping it over all of their flags it becomes something else, it took on a new meaning.

It happens all the time, language is the same, over time words take on new meaning.

I suppose in a way its kind of sad that the symbol has been violated to such a extent. The truth is however in the west if I have a swastika flag in the front garden there is a good chance I am a Nazi rather than showing of my spirituality or using it for luck, or whatever else it has been used for over the ages.

I think its the same with the confederate flag, over time it changed and is now a flag mostly associated with the far right and racist groups.

a reply to: eNumbra

So why should anyone care if confederate symbols are removed? First world problems right?

Personally i dont give a crap about the statue , not my history . What scares me though is the people kicking and spitting on said statue . Statue doesn't care , history will still be history . Devolution happening on an ever increasing scale . They all go back to their safe places and say , taught that statue a thing or two . Next on agenda . The bald eagle has a white head .

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Answer my question.

If people now look at Robert E. Lee and see an image of white privilege and racism and slavery and oppression, should everything connected to him be taken down?

Should we, as a society, intentionally dumb ourselves down, in order not to trigger some SJW?

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

The fact of the matter is that for a lot of people the confederate flag is a symbol of racism.

The BLM flag could quite easily be seen as a symbol of racism...should it be burnt?

I am not talking bout BLM or burning flags.

I'm not saying you would, I'm just asking your opinion on this current trend of seemingly arbitrary classification of a symbol as "racist". We all know that Washington had slaves, Jefferson had slaves, and even Lincoln himself believed that black people were inferior humans....and the civil war itself had nothing to do with slavery. It was just the 19th century version of "WMD's!!". I just find it nonsensical this current manufactured outrage at anything remotely connected to "racism".

originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

You guys...

First, I read somewhere that Hitler and Nazism were a white nationalist movement, then I see some of you saying that Swastika is a symbol of nazis?

Really? Do you guys not know that Nazism had nothing to do with race, but with nationality? Meaning the German nazist thought their nation is superior to other nations?

Republicans think their political views are superior to Democrats and power should be attained by any means necessary. We have voter suppression. We have scapegoating. What is the difference other than armed violence against minorities?

Maybe the radicals on the left think armed violence against the minority party or minorities in general is the next step and they are protesting and rioting out of fear because political leaders are NOT giving them any assurance otherwise.

My Republican father-in-law in North Carolina believes black people living on welfare is the cause of all our nation's problems. The Welfare program costs about 60 billion per year. The corporate welfare for the bank bailout in 2008 cost about 180 years worth of what Welfare costs per year. We spend about trillion or 1000 billion on the military every year. I don't think Welfare is our biggest problem. But my arguments never land. My father-in-law is convinced black people are just lazy and will never get off the government tit. I don't have to the courage to say to him his juicy pension is a form of socialism which he would argue he earned it. I guess depending on your point of view some people just work hard than others.

My father-in-law's friends think the 13th Amendment is unconstitutional and the Bible clearly states slavery is morally okay. But they only admit it after a few drinks and when they start shooting stuff in the backyard for fun.

I'm from the deep south, have ancestors who were confederate veterans. I grew up admiring the flag as a symbol of our cultural history, pride and identity as southerners.

All that began to change as I grew older, as I learned the flag was only brought back to popularity in the late 50's in response to rising civil rights movement. It bothered me even more when in the early 90's I'd see on the news some 'neo-nazi's' waving the confederate flag beside the nazi swastika.

The whole thing is kind of a tragic mindjob for me, because on one hand I know and take to heart the atheistic truth of what that flag actually represents for southerners, Dixieland. It was ingrained in our culture as a symbol of Dixie and for any decent southerner, the flag has always carried some weight of shame, a historic shame through LESSONS ALREADY LEARNED as not to be forgotten or repeated. Which in turn embodied the pride in having learned that lesson adding to the deeply personal weight in respect for Dixieland. That's why southerners still defend and support the flag and why the monuments exist and why they should always stand.



(Worth noting that every tyrannical downfall of once great empires began with the destruction of historic monuments.)

But as much as I understood that growing up, I began to realize that the modern growing collective outside of the south would both never be able to comprehend that slowly dying wisdom and would further denigrate and reconstitute the hate we once overcame. And that's what has been happening to the flag for the past couple decades.

The modern mainstream's and outsiders comprehension of what that flag represents to true southerners is on par and as ignorant as the 'neo-nazi's' and 'white supremacists' pieces of $#%#' who hijack it.

a reply to: Nikola014

So, let me ask you this. Why should any society intentionally dumb itself down, just to please a number of dumb people?

Unfortunately they do it to be politically correct. Damn education or trying to put away ones feelings. By being so thinned skin, people do not realize that to make them feel better or safe it usually ends up infringing on the feelings or rights of others. If you hear or see something you don't like either debate it with reasons or walk away. If an ideology is really bad, you should have not problem finding reasons to back up your views ... other than your feelings. Your feelings are not better than others'. That is how I see it, damned the PC police!

a reply to: Nikola014

Answer my question.

I will answer however, if only to keep the conversation on the go, but you might want to stop making demands of me

If people now look at Robert E. Lee and see an image of white privilege and racism and slavery and oppression, should everything connected to him be taken down?

No of course not, he is a important historical figure and history should never be forgotten, now yes I do not think that there shouldn't be any problem with taking down a statue of him if thats what the people want, but I would not have him erased form the history books.

Should we, as a society, intentionally dumb ourselves down, in order not to trigger some SJW?

Who is dumbing anyone down.

All people who are champions of social justice want is for equality and diversity to be respected, nothing more. Everyone one regardless of race, religion, gender, sexuality or culture should have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else.

Its not really a big ask in the 21st century.

It does not require any dumbing down if anything it requires using a little more brain power.

You should know that those statues were erected throughout the south during the very very ugly Jim crow laws years.
Just so you guys have a prospective.

Oh and confederate pride is nothing but racism.

There's no pride in being part of the group that tried to destroy America.
Lincoln did a rather remarkable thing back then he saved a nation.
Why not back that republican.
Instead of the racist bastard #45...

a reply to: Sillyolme

Lincoln did a rather remarkable thing back then he saved a nation. Why not back that republican. Instead of the racist bastard #45...

You do know that Lincoln was extremely racist..right?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

How old are you buddy?

So, you would agree to take down a statue of a historical figure, just because some people might find it offensive, due to their lack of historical knowledge? I mean, there would be no need to erase Robert E. Lee from history books, as people who find him offensive, never dared to pick up a book or two about him, and read it.

And make up your mind. First, you said you wouldn't take down anything connected to him, and in the second part of your sentence, you say you'd have no problem doing it if people asked for it? What?

I think you care a bit too much about feelings and very little about facts.

You could outlaw the swastika, the Confederate flag and every other symbol that you want, but it doesn't make the hate go away.
Hateful people exist.
They will continue to exist.

They will find new symbols to represent their hatred, or they will just be incognito.

a reply to: Painterz

And what we see a lot here on ATS is an example of 'white privilege', and yes I know you're all rolling your eyes and firing up your keyboards. But I just wanted to try and give you a real world example of what this is.

Here is an example of " white privilege ".

The ancestral home of Robert E. Lee is on the market, in Shropshire England.

Anyone interested ?



www.dailymail.co.uk...

How 'bout this... We destroy every statue or symbol in the United States, burn down every museum, take every history book and add them to the blaze as well. Destroy the Lincoln memorial, Mt. Rushmore, the Statue of Liberty, cover over every cemetery, and paint everything Beige.

this kind of situation is probably why the torah, bible and qur'an forbid idolatry as a sin, because god knows idolatry only leads to conflict and evil thoughts towards one another.

let's just remove every statue and historical monument in the country and make idolatry illegal in the US so situations like this can never occur again.

whether it be religious, historical, racial, gender, humanitarian, nationalist or whatever can be imagined, all symbols, statues, monuments and flags representative of people or idealism they should all be removed.

a reply to: namehere I'm being sarcastic, I think you are likewise being the same

originally posted by: eNumbra
Symbols of the confederacy don't belong flying on top of the state house or in public parks.

I've got no problem with private citizens displaying who they are, but this stuff doesn't belong anywhere but a museum.

The flags do kinda convey the message "I'm a loser!", don't they?

originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Should we, as a society, intentionally dumb ourselves down, in order not to trigger some SJW?

No. Also in the name of truth and history, all schools should promptly add The Devil's Punchbowl (American Death Camp for freed slaves) to the curriculum
thefreethoughtproject.com...

and Black Wall Street as well.
en.wikipedia.org...

In the spirit of dispelling ignorance, I think there should also be memorials to mark the unknown massacre victims so that we never forget.

ETA: Hmm.. silence from all the "history buffs".. how very odd.

It's a slippery slope - just wait until whatever image/flag/emblem you like is considered offensive.

originally posted by: Sillyolme
You should know that those statues were erected throughout the south during the very very ugly Jim crow laws years.
Just so you guys have a prospective.

Oh and confederate pride is nothing but racism.

There's no pride in being part of the group that tried to destroy America.
Lincoln did a rather remarkable thing back then he saved a nation.
Why not back that republican.
Instead of the racist bastard #45...

I hope you realize that Lincoln was also a racist. I am always appalled at the lack of knowledge that the common American seems to be so proud of. Lincoln most definitely thought that white people were superior to black people, and he was not sure how that you would integrate or even if it was possible. He freed the slaves so that the slaves would join the union, but he did not do it willingly, he did it to win the war.