Confederate Symbols, White Priviledge and Racism.

I was reading with interest the thread asking about 'is the Confederate flag racist', and lots of people putting what were clearly very passionate thoughts and beliefs. And I just wanted to spin out of that with an observation that goes off in a slightly different direction.



Clearly to a very large number of ATS members, the flag is not racist and you are all rightly upset that your symbol you don't think is racist is being condemned for being racist, because you don't like being called racists. Because most of you probably aren't very racist.

That's totally fair and understandable. Nobody likes being called a racist or a Nazi.


But here's the thing. The flag doesn't mean the same thing to every group of people.

To the White Supremacists, the flag is absolutely a flag of racism and neo-nazism, they fly it proudly alongside the Swastika, and to them it is a symbol of racism. It's a symbol of wanting to put the black man in his place.


To black folks it's absolutely a racist symbol of a political movement that fought a war for, amongst other things, the right to continue having slaves. When they see white people flying the flag, they feel threatened and reminded of a time when their not-so-distant ancestors were held as slaves. They see people who want to turn the clock back and annihilate them.



So symbols mean different things to different groups of people.



And what we see a lot here on ATS is an example of 'white privilege', and yes I know you're all rolling your eyes and firing up your keyboards. But I just wanted to try and give you a real world example of what this is.

And this is exactly what white privilege is, when you insist that YOUR OWN PERSONAL definition of what this symbol means is the ONE TRUE INTERPRETATION, you say it is not a racist symbol therefore your belief trumps the other competing beliefs, because you are white men and you've been taught all your lives that your opinion is the most important and accurate one. Therefore it should be the dominant belief that wins, therefore the symbols should not be taken down and it is an affront to dignity and history that they are being removed.


And you're not wrong. But the other groups aren't wrong either.


So really you have to ask yourself, what is the compassionate thing to do?

get rid of it.
i don't have a horse in the race, since i left america around 20 years ago.
but there is no reason to keep a symbol (an anything for that matter) that at best has an ambiguous meaning, we are to learn from the past, not necessarily keep it alive at all costs, especially if keeping it alive means creating tension and violence.
Put this stuff in a museum, there is so much more important stuff going on, it's not worth arguing over something that faded out long before we were born.

the cynical part of me however does say this, and i have to point it out: the "state of victimhood" is a very comfortable place for most people to be, and even if you get rid of this stuff, people will just find something else to keep the state of victimhood alive, for their own profit.
wasn't it not long ago that people complained about freakin smiley faces not being inclusive enough?

so yeah i guess part 1 is what should happen and part two is what will happen

Over the last few days I have noticed that there seem to be even more racist far right members on this site than I had ever thought. They just don't like the negitive connotations of words like "racist" even if that best describes their views.

That flag is racist, it is a symbol of racism just like a swastika is a symbol of the nazi's, the flag is not a nazi, it's a symbol and just like the confederate flag is not racist but it is a symbol of racism. It should be burnt, it has no place is a tolerant society

a reply to: Painterz

Because most of you probably aren't very racist.

So we're racist, but not racist right?

So really you have to ask yourself, what is the compassionate thing to do?

I suppose it's to just kowtow to every little group that gets offended about something. That's how it's worked out so far anyway.

Symbols of the confederacy don't belong flying on top of the state house or in public parks.

I've got no problem with private citizens displaying who they are, but this stuff doesn't belong anywhere but a museum.

Ok, stopped at "they feel threatened and reminded of a time when their not-so-distant ancestors were held as slaves" you cant be reminded of a time you never lived in and there is nobody on earth alive anymore that was a part of that time. look, the civil war wasnt about freeing the slaves, the confederate flag wasnt about keeping slaves. The north offered freedom to them only the fact they knew theyd have more people fighting for the north. Please, go to a library. The flag was designed for one purpose by those who made it, for the south.

originally posted by: eNumbra
Symbols of the confederacy don't belong flying on top of the state house or in public parks.

I've got no problem with private citizens displaying who they are, but this stuff doesn't belong anywhere but a museum.

I would agree with this.

As a flag it is a historical piece, its a prop that tells us a little bit of history, it would look nice framed in a museum.

Private citizens are as free to display them as they are anything else, but I would only add that the negative connotations should be kept in mind.

originally posted by: [post=22559912]OtherSideOfTheCoin[/] It should be burnt, it has no place is a tolerant society

While I agree the confederate flag is perceived by most people to be racist and should be retired.

I can't help but point out the irony and hypocrisy in your closing statement.

I'd also like to point out that there are zero people left on this earth who were confederates or were slaves under US law.

Both sides need to learn the lessons of the past and move on. It is ridiculous that it is still being used as a platform to claim any kind of personal injustice or be used as an excuse for their actions.

a reply to: Painterz

When they see white people flying the flag, they feel threatened and reminded of a time when their not-so-distant ancestors were held as slaves.

Not so distant . How long do you hold on to events of the past . Cholera in Yeman , starvation in North Korea . Effin first world problems .

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

You guys...

First, I read somewhere that Hitler and Nazism were a white nationalist movement, then I see some of you saying that Swastika is a symbol of nazis?

Really? Do you guys not know that Nazism had nothing to do with race, but with nationality? Meaning the German nazist thought their nation is superior to other nations?

Do you not know that Swastika is one of the oldest symbols in the history? It's used in Buddhism and Hinduism, so, I see nothing racist about it.

And, correct me if I'm wrong(actually, you can't, as you're not an American citizen) but, didn't Confederate people help build the nation as well? As you're from Europe, aren't you aware of just how many Confederate flags we have over here? Why don't you try and take them away as well? As a matter of fact, let's ban every information about Confederation. I heard it might trigger people, and make them really angry and upset.

originally posted by: Painterz
I was reading with interest the thread asking about 'is the Confederate flag racist', and lots of people putting what were clearly very passionate thoughts and beliefs. And I just wanted to spin out of that with an observation that goes off in a slightly different direction.



Clearly to a very large number of ATS members, the flag is not racist and you are all rightly upset that your symbol you don't think is racist is being condemned for being racist, because you don't like being called racists. Because most of you probably aren't very racist.

That's totally fair and understandable. Nobody likes being called a racist or a Nazi.


But here's the thing. The flag doesn't mean the same thing to every group of people.

To the White Supremacists, the flag is absolutely a flag of racism and neo-nazism, they fly it proudly alongside the Swastika, and to them it is a symbol of racism. It's a symbol of wanting to put the black man in his place.


To black folks it's absolutely a racist symbol of a political movement that fought a war for, amongst other things, the right to continue having slaves. When they see white people flying the flag, they feel threatened and reminded of a time when their not-so-distant ancestors were held as slaves. They see people who want to turn the clock back and annihilate them.



So symbols mean different things to different groups of people.



And what we see a lot here on ATS is an example of 'white privilege', and yes I know you're all rolling your eyes and firing up your keyboards. But I just wanted to try and give you a real world example of what this is.

And this is exactly what white privilege is, when you insist that YOUR OWN PERSONAL definition of what this symbol means is the ONE TRUE INTERPRETATION, you say it is not a racist symbol therefore your belief trumps the other competing beliefs, because you are white men and you've been taught all your lives that your opinion is the most important and accurate one. Therefore it should be the dominant belief that wins, therefore the symbols should not be taken down and it is an affront to dignity and history that they are being removed.


And you're not wrong. But the other groups aren't wrong either.


So really you have to ask yourself, what is the compassionate thing to do?

When you give hate groups the power to define portions of your world they win.

To black folks it's absolutely a racist symbol of a political movement that fought a war for, amongst other things, the right to continue having slaves. When they see white people flying the flag, they feel threatened and reminded of a time when their not-so-distant ancestors were held as slaves. They see people who want to turn the clock back and annihilate them. 

This is exactly what white hate groups want to happen. They want black people to resent white people as it further sturs the pit.

I hear everyone saying how they want to stand up to racism. For a white person that might mean taking down their confedert flag. But for everyone else that must also mean not giving the hate groups the power to define the world.

So perhaps all Abraham Lincoln statues should go too considering the phrase

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races ... I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

Then presumably the War of Independance should be reversed considering that it was legal to own slaves in the USA but not in Britain therefore the USA should be back under British rule

Then the Declaration of Independance as it was signed by many white slave owners

George Washington owned slaves so the State should be renamed and all monuments to George destroyed

Where do you draw the line?????

a reply to: Nikola014

Really? Do you guys not know that Nazism had nothing to do with race, but with nationality? Meaning the German nazist thought their nation is superior to other nations?

The problem I think with part of the discussion of race on ATS is that what race means to a American and a European is very different. Under UK law for example race also encompasses national and cultural identity, we have a more complex view of race being more than skin pigmentation.

Do you not know that Swastika is one of the oldest symbols in the history? It's used in Buddhism and Hinduism, so, I see nothing racist about it.

Interestingly I edited my post because I had originally put this in a didn't feel it worked in the post so edited to take it out. yes I know the history of the Swastika, the truth is however if I showed 100 people a swastika and asked them what that symbol meant most of them would say "Nazi".

As a matter of fact, let's ban every information about Confederation. I heard it might trigger people, and make them really angry and upset.

I would never have the information banned or even the flag banned, I think it would look very nice in a frame in a museum, a prop if you like to tell part of the story of American history.

The fact of the matter is that for a lot of people the confederate flag is a symbol of racism.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

The fact of the matter is that for a lot of people the confederate flag is a symbol of racism.

The BLM flag could quite easily be seen as a symbol of racism...should it be burnt?

originally posted by: hutch622
a reply to: Painterz

When they see white people flying the flag, they feel threatened and reminded of a time when their not-so-distant ancestors were held as slaves.

Not so distant . How long do you hold on to events of the past . Cholera in Yeman , starvation in North Korea . Effin first world problems .

So why should anyone care if confederate symbols are removed? First world problems right?

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

The fact of the matter is that for a lot of people the confederate flag is a symbol of racism.

The BLM flag could quite easily be seen as a symbol of racism...should it be burnt?

I am not talking bout BLM or burning flags.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Interestingly I edited my post because I had originally put this in a didn't feel it worked in the post so edited to take it out. yes I know the history of the Swastika, the truth is however if I showed 100 people a swastika and asked them what that symbol meant most of them would say "Nazi".

But, the only thing that this shows is that people are fairly uneducated. And, I'd bet you that 99 out of those 100 people, would have no idea what Swastika represents, only that it's "something that was used by the Nazis".

And, I'm also quite confident that there's an enormous number of people in America, who think Robert E. Lee was a racist. Let's remove his statue as well, because people might get really mad and upset over seeing his image in public. What those people not realize is that they get mad and angry because of their lack of knowledge.

So, let me ask you this. Why should any society intentionally dumb itself down, just to please a number of dumb people?

a reply to: Painterz


This video pretty much sums up the Progressive ideology of destroying history.

Party on Weimerica!

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

You literally just said that it should be burned.

Make up your mind.

originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Interestingly I edited my post because I had originally put this in a didn't feel it worked in the post so edited to take it out. yes I know the history of the Swastika, the truth is however if I showed 100 people a swastika and asked them what that symbol meant most of them would say "Nazi".

But, the only thing that this shows is that people are fairly uneducated. And, I'd bet you that 99 out of those 100 people, would have no idea what Swastika represents, only that it's "something that was used by the Nazis".

Yeah, a few million people dying in the name of something will do that.