Moral Dilemma please help.

Hey ATS I'm facing a little bit of a moral dilemma. Long story short (hopefully) I volunteer for a christian homeless outreach down south. I've been doing so for a few years now. Recently I've been noticing things I don't like. The leader of this place is also a pastor and does church on Sunday mornings. I've starting catching him twisting the meanings of the bible (I'm and ordained minister seminary and everything, though not practicing. I realized that it was not what I wanted to do.) anyways twisting the bible to suit someones hypocrisies is a common practice anymore unfortunately. I've also noticed new vehicles, a bunch of new work on his house. A brand new RV. I started doing some research on the finances. Gone through some recent years tax returns and found some major anomalies. Also speaking to people that used to live there I keep finding more and more stuff that should not be going on in a place claimed to be doing the work of the lord.

So here's my dilemma. This place gets people off the streets. Out of the weather food in their stomachs, a bed at night and a shower in the mornings. But this place is breaking the law. I've already started distancing my self by telling them I'm moving. But I am thinking of reporting this to the IRS as well as other agencies, but if I go down that path that could lead to people without the possibility of getting off the streets. I am open to suggestions.

a reply to: Somethingsamiss

We can't help people by being part of the problem. Take the Pastor down!

Just think about how much help those in need would have if this butt-hole was not siphoning off most of the donations.

He works for the other side.

Give up all and follow me.

P

Compile all the evidence and turn the theiving bastard in .
nothing worse than scum that feeds off the misery of others .

Sounds like a devil in sheeps clothing, bring out the meat hooks!!

originally posted by: Somethingsamiss
Hey ATS I'm facing a little bit of a moral dilemma. Long story short (hopefully) I volunteer for a christian homeless outreach down south. I've been doing so for a few years now. Recently I've been noticing things I don't like. The leader of this place is also a pastor and does church on Sunday mornings. I've starting catching him twisting the meanings of the bible (I'm and ordained minister seminary and everything, though not practicing. I realized that it was not what I wanted to do.) anyways twisting the bible to suit someones hypocrisies is a common practice anymore unfortunately. I've also noticed new vehicles, a bunch of new work on his house. A brand new RV. I started doing some research on the finances. Gone through some recent years tax returns and found some major anomalies. Also speaking to people that used to live there I keep finding more and more stuff that should not be going on in a place claimed to be doing the work of the lord.

So here's my dilemma. This place gets people off the streets. Out of the weather food in their stomachs, a bed at night and a shower in the mornings. But this place is breaking the law. I've already started distancing my self by telling them I'm moving. But I am thinking of reporting this to the IRS as well as other agencies, but if I go down that path that could lead to people without the possibility of getting off the streets. I am open to suggestions.

Take him/her out as best you can in legal ways. But save the sanctuary.

a reply to: Somethingsamiss

Is it possible that the establishment can exist without the current leadership or if possible simply replaced?

Quite the conundrum.

a reply to: Somethingsamiss


If the guy's immoral enough to skim proceeds to benefit himself above his mission of promoting the cause that his congregants are donating their money to, what else is he willing to do, or look the other way for personal profit?

a reply to: JinMI

Unfortunately he has made ot impossible to be removed.

Although im sure someone could restart it again though.

a reply to: Somethingsamiss

But I am thinking of reporting this to the IRS as well as other agencies, but if I go down that path that could lead to people without the possibility of getting off the streets. I am open to suggestions.

You may have studied Theology, but that doesn't give expertise in tax law or experience in just how ridiculously difficult it is for any government agency to prosecute a religious organization for money irregularities.

Best bet: walk away. Sorry.

PS Jim Jones' People's Temple started out just like that, homeless shelter and food kitchen. Not trying to be alarmist, just saying.

Pray that his worst fault may be personal greed, the homeless can survive that much better than delusions of grandeur of a pastor.



Check out: Tony Alamo

The Alamo Christian Foundation is a Christian cult. It was founded in 1969 by Tony Alamo (a-LAHM-o) (b. Sept. 20, 1934,[1] d. May 2, 2017[1][2]) and his wife Susan Alamo.

After years of legal troubles, Tony Alamo was imprisoned in 2009 and died in May 2017. The current status of the church is unclear. As of May 10, 2017, the Alamo Ministries website was still online.

I visited his Aqua Dulce compound in 1990. He was in legal trouble then. It took til 2009 for him to be imprisoned. There was more than greed going on there.

a reply to: Somethingsamiss

Walk away and know that he will be judged accordingly. Have peace knowing at least some people are being helped. Maybe one day he will realize his wrongs. I used to be a waitress a long time ago. I will never forgot a pastor that drove a new cadillac, wore several gold nugget rings, ordered a ton of food, and then left zero tip. Not everyone that claims to be a holy person is, in fact a lot of them are not even good people.

originally posted by: Somethingsamiss
a reply to: JinMI

Unfortunately he has made ot impossible to be removed.

If the guy were to get arrested then the group running the show could always send someone else. The world is in no short supply of missionaries or whatever that particular group calls their brand of delivering god and goods.

I'm no friend of organized religion but if they're doing legitimate good then you should do anything possible to bring down corruption in the midst of it. Don't just run away. Like pthena mentioned, that's how the whole thing ends up Jonestown. But I've got to disagree on the bailing out part. Some popular quote about good men doing nothing.

Aso, a little Devil's Advocate here, if god didn't want those people in squalor they wouldn't be. If god didn't want the help sent to them to be corrupt, they wouldn't be. And if god didn't want you to catch that corruption, you wouldn't have. Now, can you act on your knowledge? Good luck.

originally posted by: Somethingsamiss
Hey ATS I'm facing a little bit of a moral dilemma. Long story short ... I am open to suggestions.

You most certainly are in the throws of a 'moral' dilemma.
Here's the problem;
(and you are not going to want to hear it. You have been warned.)
First, a bit about 'morality';

From a religious Perspective (and a dictionary), 'morality' is judging people/stuff as 'good' or 'bad/evil'!

This is exact manifestation of the stolen Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Sin of Pride/judgment) in the Garden!

As a Xtian (or any other religion), we are warned against 'judging' others;
"Judge not lest you be judged!"
Such judgment (good/evil) is the sin of 'pride'!
'Pride' is the only sin (from which all others spring), yet the hypocrites flaunt their practices, joyfully, proudly, in the face of their god!

You are told that;
"If you judge, judge with righteous judgment!"
Yet goes on to say that;
"None are righteous, no not one!"

While you are busy judging your preacher, busy finding dirt, did you ever wonder what might life be like if you put all that energy, all that passion, all that focus on your understanding of Jesus' teachings and living examples? You might have been Enlightened by now?
Yet here you are, in the depths of your ego/thoughts being all sinful, all Prideful, feeling all self-righteous and justified! Such sin blinds you to the damage that you cause to others, and the Universe, by such insane behavior!

I'm going to share a little known secret with you, here it is;
It is your 'thoughts' and 'feelings' (feelings are thoughts) that is the little red devil perched on your shoulder whispering into your ear! THAT is the devil!
Your blindness didn't know this, the ego doesn't want to confront/admit this, but 'believing' thoughts/feelings is insanity, inspiring such people to do unLoving (insane) things! Just look at what you are wanting to do just to suck down some warm fuzzy 'feelings'!
Even the Bible gets this right when it warns to NEVER 'believe' anything that you 'think' or 'feel'!

No one ever deliberately harms another unless he is infected with some 'belief' or other!

Jesus taught that the ONLY way that he could recognize a follower is by their unconditional Love!!

You sound as if you yet have to experience/Know that Love!

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

From this unconditional Love one does not deal in sinful morality, but from Love comes 'ethics'!
'Ethics' is; "Do NOT do to others what you don't want done to you!"
And everyone and everything is 'others', and 'others' is Self!!

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

tat tvam asi (en.wikipedia.org...)

The bible is very clear, judge him, firstly Christians are allowed to judge, not condemn, big difference
Also biblically, take your concern to the person who is doing the wrong thing, if he doesn't respond then to the elders, written down, get them to respond to you

Outside of doing that, if you feel like you must, take it to the law, they will judge him
If you did study theology then you know there is a biblical process, it's very clear

originally posted by: Raggedyman
The bible is very clear, judge him, firstly Christians are allowed to judge, not condemn, big difference
Also biblically, take your concern to the person who is doing the wrong thing, if he doesn't respond then to the elders, written down, get them to respond to you

Outside of doing that, if you feel like you must, take it to the law, they will judge him
If you did study theology then you know there is a biblical process, it's very clear

Your response is exactly how the churches and clergymen have avoided jail for molesting children.

Take it to the law first and foremost ... unless YOU want a big pay day.

P

originally posted by: pheonix358

originally posted by: Raggedyman
The bible is very clear, judge him, firstly Christians are allowed to judge, not condemn, big difference
Also biblically, take your concern to the person who is doing the wrong thing, if he doesn't respond then to the elders, written down, get them to respond to you

Outside of doing that, if you feel like you must, take it to the law, they will judge him
If you did study theology then you know there is a biblical process, it's very clear

Your response is exactly how the churches and clergymen have avoided jail for molesting children.

Take it to the law first and foremost ... unless YOU want a big pay day.

P

Really
I have seen no evidence, only assumption. Somebody could have won a lottery?
Clearly this isn't about what you are suggesting, it's totally irrelevant

If the law is being broken then it should be disclosed to the relevant authority, I never suggested otherwise. There is a process in the church that Christians must also follow
Nowhere does the bible teach against secular law

Just another angry atheist who hates the church?
I am not suggesting it be swept under the carpet, expose it for what it may or may not be

a reply to: pthena

Never thought of my self as a tax expert... But anyways I've drawn several parallels between jim jones and this guy.

Aso, a little Devil's Advocate here, if god didn't want those people in squalor they wouldn't be. If god didn't want the help sent to them to be corrupt, they wouldn't be. And if god didn't want you to catch that corruption, you wouldn't have. Now, can you act on your knowledge? Good luck

We will just have to agree to disagree on these points.

a reply to: namelesss

Honestly i had a page and a half reply to you but i really don't feel like a never ending debate.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
The bible is very clear, judge him, firstly Christians are allowed to judge, not condemn, big difference
Also biblically, take your concern to the person who is doing the wrong thing, if he doesn't respond then to the elders, written down, get them to respond to you

Outside of doing that, if you feel like you must, take it to the law, they will judge him
If you did study theology then you know there is a biblical process, it's very clear

Mattew 18 15-17

I'd say follow the Matthew 18 Protocol. I mean done properly it should work perfectly. If it progresses to the final stage (treating him as an heathen) then from what I gather from 1 Corinthians 6 you'd be completely justified at that point to go to "law" against him.

I mean if he's doing this for filthy lucre's sake than he's a false prophet and he needs to be taken down one way or another because I guarantee it's just the tip of the iceberg as false prophets are wicked people.

The Matthew 18 Protocol is important though because if your wrong, for whatever reason, it would really suck to bring such persecution on a person and a church.

It is an unenviable position. Good luck and God grant you courage, boldness, and clarity.