Fermi Paradox - Communications Problem

originally posted by: ChrisM101
a reply to: WhyDidIJoin
Oh he absolutley knows that life is plentiful but, that humanity as a whole sucks to be honest, More advanced civilization may want to wipe us away like youd use bleach to clean a germy countertop.

If we cant unite those on this world, would they allow us to pollute the galaxy with the greed/fighting/hate that we all deal with.

Without having other intelligent beings against which to compare humanity, I'm not sure if I can say that "humanity sucks" (or at least not be sure that Humanity sucks to a large degree.)

Humanity may not be perfect, but the amount that it "sucks" in comparison to the other intelligent ETs out there may end up being "quite average". We really don't know.

Heck, who knows -- we might be more altruistic and civilized (although "civilized" is not a precise term) than most ETs. Or not.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

If the case is that we are just average... and still manage to fight, bomb, starve, hate, etc.
Then it seems like we might not want contact with a civilization capable of the same.

I guess what i mean is that if we cant be good neighbors on Earth, why would we expect to be good neighbors in the galaxy? Two scrappy neighbors probably wouldnt result in peaceful relations.

We (humans) tend to "humanize" things.

We see it in our pop culture all the time. It's called (big word warning) Anthropomorphism.

We do it with animals:



We do it with inanimate objects:



And we do it with aliens that we dream up:



We do this for amusement, for understanding, or for trying to tell a story with common ground.

We know cars don't act like humans, and we certainly know that animals do not act like us too.

Why would aliens be any different?

Human behavior is mostly behavior that is taught. We act the way we do because we are taught to act that way, or we see behavior that we tend to mimic. So our behavior tends to be a product of our environment.

One of the most common arguments I see is: Aliens that have interstellar travel will not be aggressive and war like because they'll have evolved past that.

Says who? Part of the reason we are advanced as we are is due to aggressive behavior and being an apex predator.

I love things like Star Trek, Star Wars and playing games like Mass Effect, but to think that any aliens out there are going to act a lot like us is actually very short sighted.

Aliens are going to act: Alien.

We might have some common ground, mostly based upon common environmental needs: breathing, consuming food, curiosity.

However, many of the behaviors that we think aliens might have we give them in our imagination are based upon us, humans. And in reality they may be very different from us, so much so that we might not be able to understand each other at all.

For all we know if and when first contact happens, the human that raises their hand and waves in a hello gesture starts a war with the aliens because to them that gesture is the gravest of insults.

What if the proper way to great some alien race is that they vomit their stomach contents on the other person?

Just remember: aliens are going to be alien.

In the last installment of Fermi Paradox Solutions, I started talking about the Rare Earth Hypothesis, part 1 specifically, which dealt with how rare Earth Like planets might be. Part two of that solution will deal with the rise of actual intelligence among species evolving on a planet....which just may be something even more rare.

I don't think it's that rare.

Space is a very big to begin with.

Mankind has historically thought of him self as the center of the universe, and he was 'special'.

As the saying goes there are more things in heaven the earth Horatio.

a reply to: neo96

Intelligent life in the universe could be sparse but still not rare.

That is to say, given the number of galaxies in the known universe, and the number of stars in each galaxy, there could be a huge number of intelligent civilizations that exist in the known universe at the present time.

However, the closest civilization to us still might be 20,000 light years or more away.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

Well mankind likes to play fast and loose with those definitions of intelligence and civilization.

I'd say current mankind is anything but.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Easily some of the best reads on here for a looong time

My favourite part as it is so easy to get to grips with, the fact that we have only just (in terms of universe), last 100+ years been able to leave any sort of footprint

This is why i choose to believe that there ARE other species in the universe its just at the moment we cant see/hear them, BUT when we finally do see/hear them, we have to solve

How to get there
Is it worth getting there
Friend or Foe

But these questions seem much better than trump or clinton, or brexit or no brexit, how do we convince politicians that humans should be discovering the gifts of the universe, endeavour to achieve something truly great, I wish i was alive for the moon landings (yeah I believe), lets hope we see something as spectacular...Man on Mars maybe in next 20 years?


Star and flag confirmed for OP...obviously

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People
Humanity may not be perfect, but the amount that it "sucks" in comparison to the other intelligent ETs out there may end up being "quite average".

That's my general impression of how I personally sit in humanity. No matter how special (or even "weird") I think I may be, all I have to do is look up my boggle on the Internet to find out that I'm just one of thousands with the same proclivities and problems. I don't imagine that species in space (if there even are any) will be that much different. We might not look the same, but I'm guessing that when it's all figured out, we're as average and dull as they come.

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

Well mankind likes to play fast and loose with those definitions of intelligence and civilization.

I'd say current mankind is anything but.

On balance, we're good imo. Most people are on the right side of the bell curve between good and bad.

All of our defence budgets could stand to channel more funding into the sciences and inspire most of the world's populations. Neighbours tend to get along and want the best for their families and friends. Minorities seem to dictate most of the major historical events and maybe we should appreciate how they aren't speaking for most of us.

originally posted by: Kandinsky


On balance, we're good imo. Most people are on the right side of the bell curve between good and bad.

If that's the case, then it's not really a bell curve.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Your logic is unassailable.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: Harte

Your logic is unassailable.

Sorry.
Math teacher.

Harte

This question maybe a bit off topic but reading both Fermi Paradox posts...I begin to wonder.

This talk about the universe being around 14 billion years old... It's us looking inward (counting backwards in time) or at the "center" of the universe right? From where the Big Bang originated? Point zero to us now, where the Solar System is?

My real question is...if that is the case, are we currently searching OUTWARDS? Towards the direction of expansion and not point zero?

So if the universe is an egg...are we searching what's outside the shell or at least towards the direction of the shell and not the yolk?

originally posted by: IQPREREQUISITE
This question maybe a bit off topic but reading both Fermi Paradox posts...I begin to wonder.

This talk about the universe being around 14 billion years old... It's us looking inward (counting backwards in time) or at the "center" of the universe right? From where the Big Bang originated? Point zero to us now, where the Solar System is?

My real question is...if that is the case, are we currently searching OUTWARDS? Towards the direction of expansion and not point zero?

So if the universe is an egg...are we searching what's outside the shell or at least towards the direction of the shell and not the yolk?

There is no single center.
EVERY point in the universe is the "center" if the BBT is right.

So, every way you look, no matter where you are in the universe, is "outwards."

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Oh I see...I understand it now if you explain it that way.

Wasn't there a proposal to try to communicate with aliens to the frequency of hydrogen or helium since it's the most common element in the universe?

a reply to: IQPREREQUISITE

The most common thing in the universe is what is not accounted for "dark matter" only 5% of the universe is matter.

Can you manipulate the dark matter or anti matter then you can move about freely and quickly

Part of the problem (as I've always seen it) is that looking for radio frequencies from another advanced civilization is like using an analog phone line when everybody else is using DSS wireless! Of course we hear nothing because were using AM radio tubes when everybody else is using graphene based terahertz tech.

The concept of a the Akashic Record and the, as of yet, access to it may be the level of technology "aliens" may be operating at.

The human kinda being probably needs some technical enhancements to even become a real human being. The "cyborg fear" mongerers are already playing off the idea that "AI is going to kill you" and "humans are doomed" (see Musk, Hawking, Terminator, Matrix, et al). The augmented and transhuman movement is not scary but very infant like in adding wires to your head. I suspect that nothing is going to be implanted into humans but light (yes, light, it is stranger than people really think and the manipulation of it is where I think humanity is heading) will "transmit" the augmented computer cum network information throughout the body. Only when we reach that level of tech will we notice that "they" are out there.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Thing about technology is: When someone invents or discovers something useful, it tends to stick around.

Take the wheel for example. Been around for a few thousand years. Many variations of it, but over all, the shape itself is just too useful to discard.

Look at how we generate electricity. We move a conducting piece of metal through a magnetic field to induce current. How we do it has not changed in over a century. Sure, there are some other ways to make current, but on a massive scale we still do it the same way: with a generator.

Optics. Look how long the telescope has been around. Obviously we have much better ones in today's world, but the physics of how they work has not changed.

Radio frequency transmissions have been around for about 100 years. How we use it has gotten better and better over the years. We still use it, and considering how well it helps us with communications, will continue to use for a very long time.

Look in a person's tool box. Good chance you'll find wrenches and socket wrenches. You have both because some times the proper tool could be either.

Just because a civilization might be more advanced doesn't mean they won't use different physics than us. They might have more advanced ways of doing things. But that doesn't change how physics work.

According to this article from 2010 - Article - we are leaving less of a footprint by turning to digital as opposed to analogue.

From the article Frank Drake says "Human beings are making it harder for extraterrestials to pick up our broadcasts and make contact". (By using digital), your transmissions will become four times fainter because digital uses less power. Very soon we will become undetectable," he said. In short, in space no one will hear us at all.

So by advancing technology, we become quieter, so i would think that would be the same for an alien civilisation.

So we need to build something that is a lot more powerful for detecting than our current tech if we want to find other beings, that also covers every single band, frequency, wave and spectrum known to us (radio, IR, gamma, x-ray everything). Yes it would cost money and need tremendous computing power, but we are advancing technology very quickly at the moment.

originally posted by: neo96
Mankind has historically thought of him self as the center of the universe, and he was 'special'.

Well, technically, if you take off toward the edge of the Universe, it will always be approximately the same distance away no matter which direction you go, so we are at the center of the universe.