The Fermi Paradox - What It Is and Categories

Just to put things into perspective, we represent about 0.00000000000001% of the known universe.

a reply to: verschickter
High five

history.nasa.gov...

"First, in the absence of an atmosphere, blast disappears completely.

Second, thermal radiation, as usually defined, also disappears. There is no longer any air for the blast wave to heat and much higher frequency radiation is emitted from the weapon itself.

Third, in the absence of the atmosphere, nuclear radiation will suffer no physical attenuation and the only degradation in intensity will arise from reduction with distance. As a result the range of significant dosages will be many times greater than is the case at sea level."


Thanks erik 4 this thread. Star and flag 4 u! Im also tired about trump and co topics here on ats

a reply to: schuyler

Having more than 95% of the genetic heritage in common with monkeys is unimportant, as having thousands of words available, words are the same but different combinations can create very different stories.

More important is to try to think about the number of chromosomes, science for decades has no credit that the human being had a number of chromosomes other than 48 ....

But from 1923 to 1955 when the introduction of colchicine and The best microscopes found the mistake, all were convinced that it was the magical number of human chromosomes; And that it could not be otherwise.

Moreover, if all of our closest cousins ​​had 48 chromosomes, it was reasonable to believe that the common ancestor of all apes had 48 chromosomes. How could you go from 48 to 46 chromosomes? Hybrids are almost always sterile just because the number of chromosomes is wrong: they can not properly separate the chromosomes during egg and sperm formation, and when they meet with sperm or healthy eggs these often do not melt, or Zygotes die immediately afterwards.

This process can only take place by close observation by someone who drives natural selection.

Thanks to everyone for participating.

I promise to have the next thread out by tomorrow morning:

Fermi Paradox - Rare Earth Solution Part 1

In it I will be looking at the argument that the reason we haven't seen intelligent alien life is because "Earth Like" planets are too rare. Note: I'm not agreeing with the solution, just making threads out of each one that is out there.

Let's see if we can keep it "Old School ATS" as on poster put it.

Nice little video I came arcoss a year or so back explaing this.

Video

a reply to: eriktheawful

2) They Exist But Do Not Communicate: This category is for solutions that says sure, there are plenty of intelligent aliens out there, but for one reason or another they either do not communicate, or we can not see/hear them.

I can’t help but wonder why a more advanced culture, if it were aware of us and watching us, would want to make their presence know. To me, it seems far more likely we would be monitored by stealthy, unalienned (unmanned, forgive me for that) vehicles.

From our side of things, it’s entirely possible that their method of communications would be so foreign to us as to be invisible to us. In that case, all of our efforts to find a real “WOW” signal would be a waste of time and money.

I think it’s quite odd that many seem to assume they would even be like us in form. If their needs were different from ours, the Earth might not even be a planet they would notice, as it would not be suitable for them. At our current level of development, exploring the nearest to us celestial objects, we view it as how do we make it so we can survive in environments like the Moon or Mars with spacesuits and vehicles specifically designed to allow us to explore places where we could not survive. A more advanced culture could be only interested in planets friendly to their needs, that would be a toxic environment for us.

Interesting topic!

Refreshing topic.

I'm leaning more and more towards other dimensions as being the culprit of -most- of the so called sightings/encounters here on Earth. If you take the lot (ghosts, aliens/UFO's, bigfoot, underground dwellers, etc.), it seems the common denominator is the ability to "vanish" at will. Or hiding in plain sight if you will. If these, or some of them, indeed do exist, what's their nature?

Anyway, just my amateur perspective.

Regarding your OP, my personal feeling is that it's a mix of 1) and 2).

originally posted by: Cocchino
a reply to: schuyler

Having more than 95% of the genetic heritage in common with monkeys is unimportant, as having thousands of words available, words are the same but different combinations can create very different stories..

I don't see that as answering the issue at all. My contention is that the combination of the fossil record and DNA evidence precluded the idea that we were salted here. I have seen ZERO evidence otherwise.

a reply to: Blaine91555

I can’t help but wonder why a more advanced culture, if it were aware of us and watching us, would want to make their presence know. To me, it seems far more likely we would be monitored by stealthy, unailienned (unmanned, forgive me for that) vehicles.

Or akin to us in a science lab experimenting on mice, they (we) have no clue or comprehension to what the hell is going on.

a reply to: Blaine91555

There are a lot of different reasons for that category, ranging from "they just don't want to because they do not share the same reasoning/sense of exploration as us" to "they do it for their own protection (IE stay hidden)"

That last one is pretty important. A lot of people seem to think that once a species is capable of interstellar travel, that they have no interest in war, being an empire with forced rule, and quite a few even nastier things.

But: there is no rule that says it has to be that way. In fact, our own evolution says otherwise.

We've become the apex predator here on our own world. Our brains grew quickly due to a protein packed diet we switched to a very long time ago when we became meat eaters. To eat more meat, you become a predator. To became a better predator, you need to be come more intelligent so you can hunt your prey better.

This path of aggression was a large part of our evolution in becoming intelligent tool users.

Who says it stops? Indeed.....look at the world today. It doesn't have to be all about guns and bombs either. Look at hostile take over of companies, of land for development, and many other things.

We have technology that can decimate our world. Now, just us forward just a few hundred years and think about the technology we might have then.

Armed with that technology, think of how aggressive humans can be. There is no magic "Off" switch for it, and evolution takes much longer for us than just a few hundred years. For all we know, we might just end up with tech that at the flick of a switch can wipe out all life in our solar system.

Knowing that: what would we think of other species that might be out there? What if they are just as aggressive as us? More so? Better tech?

One of the solutions for the paradox is: they're hiding. Because they know that contact can always lead to conflict, which at that tech level could result in extinction of their species.

Not saying I buy all into it. But it is an interesting idea.

It runs parallel with the idea of contact being made.....with a species that is thousands to millions of years more advanced than us.

I'm not 100 percent sure it would be a good thing. All I have to do is look at human history and see what happens when a much more tech advanced race meets a lesser tech advanced race.

Never ends well for the lesser advanced ones.

originally posted by: verschickter
a reply to: dragonridr

Of course "we" can. Not pinpointing the location but we definitly can, as in the technology is there and the tools in space, also.

Edit: Of course there will always be circumstances where high energy fission could go undetected.

On the planet is entirely different then in space. Outside of earth's atmosphere any source of radiation would be masked by our sun.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Its really hard being me the keeper of knowledge on this earth.I look at this thread and all I can do is shake my head and count how many different programs you just wrote.

The key to knowledge and the truth is all about choosing one program, to many programs will confuse and clutter the main frame and create a virus,of unwanted questions and in some cases a new program that had nothing to do with the alpha.

Greatest Secret Ever Told was copy written by IML 527.7-21-3017.

You mortals are the aliens.

Here's a new program I would like for you to down load...you have one choice.
Is this the first planet or the last?

The only way that your upload will down load successful y is if you delete all info on all aliens from your main frame.

originally posted by: eriktheawful

5) They Have Existed But Always Kill Themselves Off: this is the Doomsday category, in which the idea is that alien civilizations do develop and advance, but always seem to end up ending themselves one way or another.

Apologies, but I am about to ramble on in post and these are just my wandering thoughts

I have to admit after numerous years of thought-provoking scenarios (and I teeter back and forth quite a bit on the subject of Aliens) , that 'Number Five' is one that only recently I've come to possibly think about more often. I don't necessarily follow the stance that 'they always kill themselves off" though, I do think that perhaps a few might be able to grasp the necessity to understand everything is connected with a 'cause and effect'. But would they want to extend their hand to a smaller and less intelligent species? Or like in the TV Show Star Trek, would there be a prime directive in place, which always seems to come across in blurred crossed-lines of reality, (depending on the situation).

Michio Kaku (who I had the pleasure to interview twice here for ATS) said that physicists don't search for Aliens, they search for evidence of three types of civilization. Dr. Kaku suggested that humans may attain Type I status in 100–200 years, Type II status in a few thousand years, and Type III status in 100,000 to a million years.

Type I designation is a given to species who have been able to harness all the energy that is available from a neighboring star, gathering and storing it to meet the energy demands of a growing population. This means that we would need to boost our current energy production over 100,000 times to reach this status. However, being able to harness all Earth’s energy would also mean that we could have control over all natural forces. Human beings could control volcanoes, the weather, and even earthquakes! (At least, that is the idea.) These kinds of feats are hard to believe, but compared to the advances that may still be to come, these are just basic and primitive levels of control (it’s absolutely nothing compared to the capabilities of societies with higher rankings).

Type II civilization – can harness the power of their entire star (not merely transforming starlight into energy, but controlling the star). Several methods for this have been proposed. The most popular of which is the hypothetical ‘Dyson Sphere.’ This device, if you want to call it that, would encompass every single inch of the star, gathering most (if not all) of its energy output and transferring it to a planet for later use. Alternatively, if fusion power (the mechanism that powers stars) had been mastered by the race, a reactor on a truly immense scale could be used to satisfy their needs. Nearby gas giants can be utilized for their hydrogen, slowly drained of life by an orbiting reactor.

Type III, the species have become galactic traversers with knowledge of everything having to do with energy, resulting in them becoming a master race. In terms of humans, hundreds of thousands of years of evolution – both biological and mechanical – may result in the inhabitants of this type III civilization being incredibly different from the human race as we know it. These may be cyborgs (or cybernetic organism, beings both biological and robotic), with the descendants of regular humans being a sub-species among the now-highly advanced society. These wholly biological humans would likely be seen as being disabled, inferior, or unevolved by their cybernetic counterparts.

At this stage, we would have developed colonies of robots that are capable of ‘self replication’; their population may increase into the millions as they spread out across the galaxy, colonizing star after star. And these being might build Dyson Spheres to encapsulate each one, creating a huge network that would carry energy back to the home planet. But stretching over the galaxy in such a manner would face several problems; namely, the species would be constrained by the laws of physics. Particularly, light-speed travel. That is, unless they develop a working warp drive, or use that immaculate energy cache to master wormhole teleportation (two things that remain theoretical for the time being), they can only get so far. [Source]

So where do we Humans sit on this scale? According to Dr. Kaku, the next 100+ years of science will determine whether we perish or thrive. Will we remain a Type 0 civilization, or will we advance and make our way into the stars?

As far as I can theorize currently with what I read and hear I'm leaning to this train of thought.... As intelligent as we think we are as humans, we are rapidly destroying the very place we call home (and ourselves) and will probably end up destroying everything off. This isn't what I wish for, but we humans (for the most part), are more concerned about the newest Apple-device release than managing an Earth to continue living in. And else-where in the World, a motivation to kill everyone that does not believe as "we do" (whomever that 'we' might be) is running a close second. So unfortunately, I do not believe we will make it another 100 years so the number (5) Five Scenario " that alien civilizations do develop and advance, but always seem to end up ending themselves one way or another", is more than likely the path that we Earthlings are currently on.

The The Kardashev Scale was proposed in 1964 by the Soviet astronomer Nikolai Kardashev. Various extensions of the scale have since been proposed, including a wider range of power levels (types 0, IV and V) and the use of metrics other than pure power.

a reply to: eriktheawful

I can't help but ask myself, how could we even know what intelligence from another world would be like? The size of an ant or the size of a house, arms like an octopus or crawling on the ground with it's dozens of legs, who's to say or know.

I think we tend to try and humanize possible aliens far too much. The reasons they would not be apparent to us or even interested in us are legion.

It's a bit conceited to think they would be all that interested in us to begin with.

I share the concern that we may not want to interact with aliens who may well only be interested in our resources and moving us out of the way.

originally posted by: Cocchino
a reply to: schuyler

Having more than 95% of the genetic heritage in common with monkeys is unimportant, as having thousands of words available, words are the same but different combinations can create very different stories.

More important is to try to think about the number of chromosomes, science for decades has no credit that the human being had a number of chromosomes other than 48 ....

But from 1923 to 1955 when the introduction of colchicine and The best microscopes found the mistake, all were convinced that it was the magical number of human chromosomes; And that it could not be otherwise.

Moreover, if all of our closest cousins ​​had 48 chromosomes, it was reasonable to believe that the common ancestor of all apes had 48 chromosomes. How could you go from 48 to 46 chromosomes? Hybrids are almost always sterile just because the number of chromosomes is wrong: they can not properly separate the chromosomes during egg and sperm formation, and when they meet with sperm or healthy eggs these often do not melt, or Zygotes die immediately afterwards.

This process can only take place by close observation by someone who drives natural selection.

The chromosomes could have went through what's called balanced translocation, one chromosome sticks to another.  The end result is 45 instead of 46 chromosomes with very little DNA lost. Happens to about 1 in 1000 people. So we have people with 45 chromosomes without the side effects such a downs syndrome.

It's suspected this happened in the Human genome a million years ago. In other words doesn't require anything to make sure it happen's because it happen's daily. What it tells us is we all come from these humans that were effected. Very cool when you think about it. We all have the same relatives no matter race creed or color.

I think that there is a hyper agressive speciex out there that stamps out all life before they can pose a threat to them, because of a near E.L.E in their past that molded their psyche in a hyper aggressive form.
There thats my 2 cents.

a reply to:
On the planet is entirely different then in space. Outside of earth's atmosphere any source of radiation would be masked by our sun. dragonridr

www.popsci.com...

"Humans are already pretty good at identifying and tracking nuclear explosions on Earth. A network of seismographs, infrasound stations, and hydroacoustic monitoring can capture the aftereffects of a blast and pinpoint its location underground, in water, or in the air. Afterwards, radioactive particles can be matched to the blast. Developed during the Cold War, these sensors guarantee that any nuclear tests today are detected, very, very quickly.

Those sensors are limited to the boundaries of the Earth. To spy nuclear testing in the heavens, or on other worlds, we’d need something altogether different. For stars far away, we can make out something of the planets that orbit them through the way their light passes through various atmospheres on its way to Earth. That change in the light means it might be possible, if human astronomers are very prepared and very lucky, to catch a glimpse of a nuclear war on a distant world."


physics.stackexchange.com...

"As dmckee and Martin Beckett pointed out, our atmosphere is far more than thick enough to convert practically all cosmic rays into gamma rays, and practically all gamma rays into visible light and muons. That's why all gamma-ray telescopes and X-ray telescopes are designed to be placed outside the earth's atmosphere.

The gamma ray detectors on those satellites can't detect gamma rays emitted by things on the ground; apparently those detectors were originally designed to detect gamma rays emitted by nuclear bombs detonated in space. (Has that ever happened?)"

Just googled a little bit

originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
Just to put things into perspective, we represent about 0.00000000000001% of the known universe.

True. And the human species has existed about for 0.0015% of the total age of the universe, and human civilization has existed about for 0.0004% of the total age of the universe.

That is to say, over 99.9% of the history of the universe (so far) happened before humans came along. There might have been many civilizations that came and went -- and had their stars bloat/nova/supernova and wide away any signs that they ever existed in the first place.

a reply to: Vratyas

To be honest, the first GRBs (Gamma Ray Bursts) detected were in the 1960s via satellites that were used to detect nuclear detonations in space.

The first of these detected, the US thought the Soviets were the cause of them. But analysis revealed that they were not originating on or near Earth.

In fact, as analysis went on, it was shown that these were MASSIVE bursts of gamma ray radiation from very far away.

One idea played around with (not officially of course) was some sort of advanced space weapon being used (think some far of space battle where a fleet of ships or a world is destroyed).

Turns out the sources of GRBs are literally BILLIONS of light years away. For example one was over 7.5 billion ly away.

That means it happened when the universe was around 6.5 billion years old.

And the problem with that is: Universe Too Young For Life.

That's another "solution" to the Fermi Paradox, but how it applies for now is a bit different than how I'm applying it for GRBs.

When the universe was only 6.5 billion years old, most of the stars were Population 1 stars......made up almost of nothing but hydrogen, with no metals.

Remember: the heavier elements we know of were created in the forges of super novas.

Go back in time far enough and you'll have a very hard time finding "rocky" planets, or planets with enough metal in them to amount to very much of anything.

Goodbye trying to develop an advance tool using society without metals.