The Fermi Paradox - What It Is and Categories

I'm attempting to follow the ground rules here and stick with what we know for certain, so no abductees, no multiverses, no science fiction presented as fact, no religion. You can claim things are "common sense" if you want, but strictly speaking, that is not proof of anything. The basic issue is, "Where are they?" and as far as we know, "They're not here." So from that a few points:

1. We don’t know if there is life elsewhere. "Common sense" would dictate that "Of course there's life out there!" Granted. I think so, too, but it begs several questions. Is there INTELLIGENT life out there? How intelligent? I think what is implicit in the question, "Where are they?" is that we're looking for a space-faring species, not dolphins or whales, and not smart dinosaurs. We're assuming a species that has technology that can get them from their home world to Earth. That's a much bigger question than the simple, "Is there life out there?" because there may be a lot of life out there that simply does not "look up!" and even consider that those bright lights in the sky may be suns with planets revolving around them. We're not really looking simply for "life." We're looking for a very narrow definition of sentient life much like our own. I think it is fair to say that reduces the possibilities a bit.

2. We do not know how long it takes for sentient life to evolve. We think the Universe is 14 billion years old. We think the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. What if that’s how long it takes? We could be the first. You simply CANNOT claim that is impossible. You can say it’s unlikely. You can say it’s improbable. You can say it defies “common sense,” but from a logical and technical perspective, it could be true. SOMEBODY had to be first. What if it’s us? There could be billions of civilizations in the Universe that have reached beyond a Renaissance-era existence, but they just haven’t gotten this far yet, or if they have, they destroyed themselves. Maybe an asteroid hit their planet at a crucial time. It’s logically possible. This is kind of a modified “Rare Earth” scenario. But it answers the question. They’re not here because we are the first.

3. What if they CAN’T get here? There is this pesky problem of the Speed of Light. It’s been called the “built in speed limit” of the Universe. If it is truly impossible to exceed the Speed of Light, then that makes interstellar distances prohibitive for travel. Assuming lifespans like ours, you could build a self-sustaining ark and set sail, but what are the chances you’d get to Earth from elsewhere, especially not knowing if Earth was habitable at all? You could say, “All we need to do is invent Warp Drive,” but that’s cheating. It’s science fiction. It isn’t real so it’s beyond the parameters of this discussion. If the speed Limit is real, then it answers the question. They’re not here because they can’t get here.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: UpIsNowDown
Thus they overlook the possibilities of life existing on this planet, because we sure do stick out like a sore thumb in this rather dry part of space

There is more water vapor in cosmic gas clouds than on thousands of earths combined.

Yeah I did mean planets not space and I also did not know that

a reply to: schuyler

Good responses and look forward to seeing you post in the more detailed threads of Rare Earth, Young Universe and others.

One thing I did not mention in my OP that I should most likely edit in: Being Too Alien. This is where other intelligent alien life is so alien compared to us that we do not even recognize it as intelligent alien life.

originally posted by: UpIsNowDown
Yeah I did mean planets

not space and I also did not know that

There is more water, frozen or in vapor, in space then anyone could need. Aliens that required water would not need to harvest it from planets, they could more easily collect it in space.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

The point I suggested about water was maybe Aliens hate water, thus leaving us alone, think you missed that bit

originally posted by: UpIsNowDown
The point I suggested about water was maybe Aliens hate water, thus leaving us alone, think you missed that bit

I think we are going to find that water is a necessity for life, this isn't Signs.

a reply to: eriktheawful
Personally I like (I think it was Carl Sagan's) supposition that life might even exist yet we can't recognise it as life. We base our rules of life on Earth's parameters and life elsewhere might be something so different as to be incomprehensible!

But might as well throw in a joke too. Any life that is intelligent knows to stay the hell away from humans

originally posted by: Ridhya
a reply to: eriktheawful

Personally I like (I think it was Carl Sagan's) supposition that life might even exist yet we can't recognise it as life. We base our rules of life on Earth's parameters and life elsewhere might be something so different as to be incomprehensible!

But might as well throw in a joke too. Any life that is intelligent knows to stay the hell away from humans

Which is the main reason when we search for life, it is mostly "Life as we Know It".

Searching for "Life as we Don't Know It" is much much more difficult, because if we can't imagine that type of life, then building a test that detects that life could be a problem.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: UpIsNowDown
The point I suggested about water was maybe Aliens hate water, thus leaving us alone, think you missed that bit

I think we are going to find that water is a necessity for life, this isn't Signs.

Swing away, Merrill!

a reply to: eriktheawful

Eric, you might consider a Number 7, The Earth and quite possibly our solar system is quarantined by the extraterrestrials. They may have existed for billions of years and could have been visiting us for millions of years. We may be quarantined for reasons unknown to us but known only to the extraterrestrials.

I personally think that we are indeed quarantined and over the millions of years we may have existed that homo sapiens has been developed as a fighting species. For all we know, all the extraterrestrials in our galaxy are vehemently against violence and killing, but, suppose an outside force from another galaxy came here and started taking over, killing and ruining their culture and way of life? They could easily build the weapons of war and man them with humans who would have no compunction about killing invading space aliens.

There may be no telling of how many times this may have happened... if it happened at all.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Dude, ALL I suggested was that because we live on a planet with water maybe Aliens dont like water and therefore leave us alone, I appreciated your first lesson but now you are just taking 1 line of my posts and running in your own direction, maybe chasing your tail.

Lets not derail an actual good thread

Earth has been and continues to be visited by aliens. Its been going on for as long as the bible if not before. There are many scientists who now think there may be as many as 5,000 civilizations in the Milky Way Galaxy, and in my opinion and others some are coming here to visit from time to time.i

originally posted by: UpIsNowDown
Dude, ALL I suggested was that because we live on a planet with water maybe Aliens dont like water and therefore leave us alone, I appreciated your first lesson but now you are just taking 1 line of my posts and running in your own direction, maybe chasing your tail.

And because you make a suggestion we have to not react to it? The suggestion is, politely, somewhat unsound in its premise.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

React all you want, but I never suggested half the things you are ascribing to me such as harvesting water, I also am open to non carbon based life (who knows - well you seemingly do), maybe a little less scorn in your comments on such a unproven subject might help, but to be honest I dont give a F''@K, and feel free to respond but I wont continue from this point.

Enjoy your day my friend

a reply to: UpIsNowDown

And why would a non-carbon based life form be adversely affected by water?

a reply to: NightFlight

That one falls under the No Communications category, as that would be one of the reasons for no communications.

@Everyone: non-carbon based water friendly life forms.

The problem with talking about this is: pure speculation. When we talk about life out in the universe, we tend to think of searching for life that is like that here on Earth.

The reason for this is:

1) CHON, Carbon, Hyrdrogen, Oxygen and Nitrogen. Those are the most abundant elements in our universe. It is also what life here on Earth is made of.

2) We would be able to recognize quickly any life that is CHON based because of all we know about our own planet with it's life.

I remember one documentary criticized the Fermi paradox by saying the fact that no lobsters appears on your doorstep when you have a hankering for a lobster dinner does not prove lobsters don't exist. It doesn't even suggest they don't exist.

In short, Fermi's Paradox is rather ridiculous. It gives very narrow and specific parameters to a question where they don't have to apply.

It's like saying, "If Napoleon really existed, why don't I know anyone who met him?"

a reply to: eriktheawful

I agree with most life in our universe being carbon based-too many reasons to list them all, but rock, liquid water and CO2 on a volcanically active planet should produce prokaryotic life.
I have what may seem like a dumb question-if an advanced civilization (say, 50 light years away) stopped using radio waves as a form of communication 1000 years ago, would we have missed the transmission? IE-would it have passed us by already, and not be detectable? I think yes, but i obviously do not know!

a reply to: Moresby

Not sure what you watched, but that's pretty silly.

The Fermi Paradox is a question: Where is everyone?

It's not a statement of whether or not intelligent life exists or not. It is nothing more than a question.....one which should have an answer.

Right now, pretty much all the answers are speculation and there is nothing wrong with that. The answer could be: they are all around, but just have not gotten here is all.

I fail to see how asking a question is faulty logic.

Yeah, the biggest problem still seems to be that we're expecting to find aliens that conform to and live within the reality that we have defined for ourselves, given our very limited senses and intelligence. That's just dandy for maybe finding aliens who are like us (so far, no good), but it's not going to help us find or recognize aliens that are way smarter than us, or exist in a kind of reality we just don't have the senses and brains to comprehend.

We're like cats that can't log onto the Internet, or even understand that it exists, even though it totally does.