Peer-Review My Systematic Theology, Pt. 2 - The Trinity

(Pt. 1 may be found here.)

A quick recap:
- God is the act of existence necessitated by the improbability/impossibility of non-existence
- God is naturally motivated to progress and preserve existence

God is like a river of existence. Both are actively flowing, by their very natures carving out paths to drive themselves forward. As the river erodes its way through land to reach the ocean, so God moves his own existence forward toward something greater.

So God's first act, if I may call it that, was to form two lesser existences within himself. The first I call the Spirit of the Word; the second I call the Spirit of Witness.

These two existences ("spirits") are co-equals, but they each have their own jobs to do.
The Spirit of the Word is the one who receives and possesses the Word of God (that is, God's "thoughts" that he communicates to him). Literally. Like God's closest friend whom he confides in, the Spirit of the Word is the one who "hears" God directly. Everything God tells him (which is everything), he keeps and never forgets - it becomes a part of his existence.
The Spirit of Witness is, as his name suggests, the witness to what God tells the Spirit of the Word. And when he witnesses it, he acts on it. Everything that God tells the Spirit of the Word is intended to be acted upon by the Spirit of Witness.
This is the dynamic that God forms between himself and his nearest creations. It is a Trinity, sure, but there are not three Gods or three persons in one God. There is one existing God and two lesser existences formed by him to co-relate with him and within him.

In Pt. 3, I will expand on their roles a lot more, and give historical details, but for now, I want to keep it focused on their formation and identities.

In 1 Peter 1:11, the Spirit of the Word is also called the Spirit of Christ, and John (in John 1:1f) refers to him poetically by the Word he possesses.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the Spirit of Witness is predominantly called the Spirit of Yahweh. In the Greek Scriptures, he is called the Holy Spirit, the Counselor/Comforter, and the Spirit of Truth.

(And from here on out I will refer to God as the Spirit of Existence.)

a reply to: CLPrime
For a complete (biblically speaking) picture of the Holy Spirit, you need to bear in mind that the Spirit is not just about "truth", but also about power.
E.g. the Spirit falls upon someone in Judges and he goes off and fights the Amalekites.
The Spirit falls upon someone else and he begins to prophesy. Two different kinds of power.
So Paul associates them together; he did not speak to the Corinthians in plausible words of wisdom, "but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Corinthians ch2 v4).

a reply to: DISRAELI

The power of the Spirit of Witness (Holy Spirit) is something that I will get into in Pt. 3, for now his most fundamental nature is as a witness to the Word of God as received by the Spirit of the Word (the Spirit of Christ).

And I would add that, generally, the power of the Spirit of Witness serves as an evidence of the Truth he is a witness to.

originally posted by: CLPrime
In 1 Peter 1:11, the Spirit of the Word is also called the Spirit of Christ, and John (in John 1:1f) refers to him poetically by the Word he possesses.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the Spirit of Witness is predominantly called the Spirit of Yahweh. In the Greek Scriptures, he is called the Holy Spirit, the Counselor/Comforter, and the Spirit of Truth.

I disagree with this distinction.
The Spirit of Christ is another name for what you are calling the Spirit of Witness.
This becomes clear from two other passages.
In Romans ch8 v9, the same Spirit is labelled in two successive sentences as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. They are the same thing.
While the discourse in John chs14-16 explains the double labelling. Jesus says at different places "I will ask the Father to send the Spirit" and "The Father will send the Spirit in my name" and "I will send the Spirit". In other words, the Father and the Son combine together to send the Spirit, and so the action can be described in all these different ways.

So then what is your take on the branches of Zechariah? And the messengers of Malachi? Taken together it would seem the Lord has two "personal assistants" that are present to do his bidding. Is it possible the idea of a trinity came from them?

a reply to: DISRAELI

I would say that Paul is referring to the "Spirit of Christ" as in the Spirit from/sent by Christ, i.e. the Holy Spirit, whereas Peter is referring to the "Spirit of Christ" as in Christ's spirit, which John refers to as the Logos.

Regardless, John refers to the Logos as distinct from the Holy Spirit, so the Logos at least is the Spirit of the Word and the Holy Spirit/Spirit of God is the Spirit of Witness.

a reply to: CLPrime
It seems to me that "Spirit sent by Christ" would work for Peter's verse as well as in Paul.
He is talking about the Old Testament period when the one Holy Spirit is already acting on the prophets.

a reply to: DISRAELI

It would, yes, which is why I went on to the Logos of John.

a reply to: ntech

It seems to me that the prophecy of the Branch in Zechariah refers twofold to Zerubbabel and to the Messiah (Yeshua).
The first messenger in Malachi 3 refers to John the Baptist, who prepared the way for the Messenger of the Covenant, the Messiah Yeshua.

According to my Systematic Theology as presented here so far, the Messenger of Preparation comes with the Spirit of Witness (the Holy Spirit, as Elijah had), and the Branch/Messenger of the Covenant is the Spirit of the Word in human form (Yeshua the Messiah).

a reply to: CLPrime

Who are the peers you would like to provide input? Theologians? Christians? Atheists? People in divinity school?

a reply to: icanteven

Anybody with an interest in the topic.

a reply to: CLPrime

So a greater being creates lesser beings and thats called love
Jesus while being God, sacrificed Himself for us because of Gods love, His love

How can love create inferior, love by its definition, its many Greek definitions, doesnt create inferior, perfect love is not even equality
Perfect love means creating or instilling in others more, making them more, not equals, exalting them

Take Jesus, God with us.
If Jesus was not God, God would not have sent Jesus to the cross, where Christ would receive all the glory.
Then Christ on the cross gave the Father all the glory
If I extrapolate that
God gave Christ all the glory of humanitys redemption on the cross, every eye on earth and in heaven was, will be on Jesus
Christ on the cross was exalted above the Father, that is no minor circumstance
On the cross Christ gave God the Father all the glory
If one part of the Trinity was inferior, then that could not happen

You recognise God is love and then infer God created lesser, thats not love in any shape or form

Anyway, thats how I understand it

originally posted by: Raggedyman
So a greater being creates lesser beings and thats called love
Jesus while being God, sacrificed Himself for us because of Gods love, His love

Jesus is not God, and the Spirit of the Word, which he was before his human birth, was not God. He was created by God just like we were.

God (the Spirit of Existence), Jesus/Yeshua (the Spirit of the Word), and the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of WItness) all love humans because they all had a hand in creating them. But that does not make them all God; only the Spirit of Existence is God.

By "lesser," I don't mean inferior. I mean within or secondary in existence, not secondary in rank.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
How can love create inferior, love by its definition, its many Greek definitions, doesnt create inferior, perfect love is not even equality
Perfect love means creating or instilling in others more, making them more, not equals, exalting them

No, love means raising a person up according to their worth, and worth is imparted entirely by being created by God. Every person has equal worth (nothing they do can change it), but not every person receives equal glory. On the other hand, every person receives equal love.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Take Jesus, God with us.
If Jesus was not God, God would not have sent Jesus to the cross, where Christ would receive all the glory.
Then Christ on the cross gave the Father all the glory
If I extrapolate that God gave Christ all the glory of humanitys redemption on the cross, every eye on earth and in heaven was, will be on Jesus
Christ on the cross was exalted above the Father, that is no minor circumstance
On the cross Christ gave God the Father all the glory
If one part of the Trinity was inferior, then that could not happen

God didn't cause Yeshua to live simply to die on the cross. God caused Yeshua to live so that, by his life (which he lived according to the Word he possessed) he would lead people into a relationship with God as Father.
The cross was the consummation of Yeshua's sacrifice, not the sacrifice itself. The sacrifice of Yeshua was his coming to Earth to live a human life.

And in no way was or will Yeshua ever be exalted above God, even for the purpose of exalting God. Yahweh is the name that is truly above every name; Yeshua is the name above all human names because it is by that name that we are led to God, but God himself, Yahweh, is the destination. The Way is in no way superior to the One it leads to.
Yeshua/Jesus was glorified only because he gave all glory to God; really it's the glory of God reflected in him because the nature of God was reflected in him. And when the Followers of Yeshua reflect the nature of God, then we/they too will reflect the glory of God - but that doesn't mean we're God.

a reply to: CLPrime

No, you can say you think Jesus is not God
You can't say Jesus is not God

In fact your whole argument is a demand
It's your theology and what you base your personal beliefs on is anyone's guess

Love is,raising someone up to their worth, come on, that's stupid

To you I may be worthless, to God I am worth dying for

You lost me with your arrogance

We are not Gods, I could give you a biblical, scriptual description of the promise for those in Christs god hood that is to come, but you would just say I am wrong
So,why would I do that? Rhetorical question

a reply to: Raggedyman

Actually, I'd say you're not wrong. John 10:33-36...

The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’ If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken), do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’

The Followers of Jesus will be made god-like, as Jesus was in his resurrection.
And, of course, John refers to the Word as "God" (or at least "god/divine").

But even as gods, Jesus and his Followers all defer to Yahweh as the One True God.


Concerning love...you'd be surprised how powerful it is to raise a person up to their worth. As we are, we don't understand our worth. We live according to lust; in most cases, we don't know what love is let alone feel it. But for God, who formed each of us as special creations for himself and his own purposes, we have great worth. It's that great worth that each of us has in God's eyes that motivates his love for us.
And it's an understanding of God's (basically infinite) worth that motivates our self-sacrificial love for him.

a reply to: CLPrime

Yes, the Pharisees wanted Christ dead, proclaiming oneself a son of God was the same as proclaiming yourself as God, Judaism understood the claim and the ramifications of the claim
It seems you possibly don't

Irrespective, I understand, Christ is the same as the Father, albeit, different

If God didn't understand what would come of Christ on the cross, the worship that Christ would receive, the Father would not have compromised Himself.
Jesus is God, though He doesn't ask for worship, He receives it from His church

God has created humanity to be as I assume, His equals, or possibly as close as it can be. Because love doesn't create lesser, love by Godly definition requires that the lesser is given the capacity to be the greater, true love, self sacrifice

You have a very JW.org theology

a reply to: Raggedyman

To some, how I live does seem rather JW-esque, but we have some rather major doctrinal differences (even on the nature of the pre-existence of Christ, though they may seem superficially similar), and I am completely unaffiliated.

I'm interested in your view on love and the glorification of Jesus. I would welcome you showing me to be wrong...anyone would be foolish to think they're right about everything, and I might miss a chance to learn if i don't ask. Do you have Scripture to support your view?

a reply to: CLPrime

I am going to guess that the bible is not a significant part of your theology?

a reply to: Raggedyman

There's no test of my theology that I rely on more than the Word of God as found in the Bible.

Jesus and God both have there own separate names, they are independent spirits, and one was created.
The Trinity is a false teaching inspired by demonic paganism, to stealthy get Christians to deny the ransom by accident.
Thus Satan accomplishes a goal for spiritually minded people, get them to follow Christ in a perpetual error so large it denies their personal salvation.

It is Satan's master stroke of deception, he has created an emotional attachment to false dogma, quite brilliant actually.