The transgender con ? Many transgender regret switch

a reply to: Sheye

Sheye -- I'm impressed. Good job writing the OP, good job tending your thread, good job expressing legitimate concerns as well as much appreciated compassion, and good job dealing with the outright hostility and insults.



This isn't an easy issue with easy answers for anyone. In fact, it seems one of those times where there are no good answers. And there are definitely not any one-size-fits-all answers because there isn't one root cause or reason for gender dysphoria. It could be mental, emotional, physical, perhaps even spiritual -- and certainly various combinations thereof.

If I get a chance tomorrow, I will add more. I share many of your concerns. It's long been a guiding principle that the best medical treatment for any condition is the one which is most effective but least invasive with the fewest possible adverse effects/outcomes. All surgeries have their risks; gender re-assignment surgeries are no exception. They are also fixing what ain't broken... (and by that I mean, body parts that are performing their function just fine)... with no guarantee of the desired outcome. Hence your OP.

Thanks for fighting the good fight!

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Sheye

Sheye -- I'm impressed. Good job writing the OP, good job tending your thread, good job expressing legitimate concerns as well as much appreciated compassion, and good job dealing with the outright hostility and insults.

This isn't an easy issue with easy answers for anyone. In fact, it seems one of those times where there are no good answers. And there are definitely not any one-size-fits-all answers because there isn't one root cause or reason for gender dysphoria. It could be mental, emotional, physical, perhaps even spiritual -- and certainly various combinations thereof.

If I get a chance tomorrow, I will add more. I share many of your concerns. It's long been a guiding principle that the best medical treatment for any condition is the one which is most effective but least invasive with the fewest possible adverse effects/outcomes. All surgeries have their risks; gender re-assignment surgeries are no exception. They are also fixing what ain't broken... (and by that I mean, body parts that are performing their function just fine)... with no guarantee of the desired outcome. Hence your OP.

Thanks for fighting the good fight!

Thank you Boadicia . That post meant alot to me.

Parents should wait until their children grow up to decide what they believe (religions, denominations or nonbelief).
Don't indoctrinate them or force them.

originally posted by: Sheye
The title of this thread is the title of this article
www.thenewamerican.com...

It has some interesting ,yet very sad insight into the transgender issue from transgendered who wished to de-transition.

“You fundamentally can't change sex…. Transsexualism was invented by psychiatrists.” These are not the words of a conservative organization or a fundamentalist preacher, but of former “transsexual” Alan Finch. Having decided to “transition from male to female” at age 19, the Australian man later regretted the life-rending move and chose to once again live as his true sex approximately 15 years later. And he’s not alone. A growing number of “transgender” people, though once sure they wanted to live as the opposite sex, now wish they'd never had their bodies surgically altered.

Morabito goes on to cite a poll showing that even 65 percent of people who’ve had cosmetic surgery — which is relatively minor body alteration — later regret the decision. As she writes, quoting Courtney Love on her lip enhancement procedure, “I just want the mouth God gave me back.” Yet many regretful “transsexuals” are afraid to open their mouths. Writing about how the scope of “transgender” de-transition desires is hidden, Morabito writes, “The transgender lobby actively polices and suppresses discussion of sex-change regret, and claims it’s rare (no more than “5 percent.”) [sic]. However, if you do decide to ‘de-transition’ to once again identify with the sex in your DNA, talking about it will get you targeted by trans activists.” This is reminiscent of how the homosexual lobby has viciously attacked grown children of same-sex couples all because these people now oppose same-sex child-rearing, which The New American reported on earlier this month.

So perhaps the reason many transgendered get so depressed is not so much to do with bullying and non acceptance but a regret they didn't accept their original bodies more.

I will quote more later, but I urge you to read it all , it's a short read

Is simply an imbalance of endocannabinoids—which is the body's regulatory system. It regulates mood/emotions/thoughts/behavior.

originally posted by: Sheye
It's always the same old on these threads with a few individuals.

Your sources are bogus crap... blah blah blah.. conservative think tap crap.

Then they expect you to read their bais crap and do a complete turnabout on your viewpoints.

My views are based on logic as well as reality. It's not natural to carve your body up ,to be something your not. That is the lie being told to transgendered ... and I think many suffer postsurgical depression, which is sad indeed.

It's been interesting coming back to this thread and reading the comments. Most of which have been fairly polite efforts by people to educate OP that her opinions being informed by right-wing anti-LGBT think-tanks are maybe based on very bias and inaccurate information.

And yet OP seems to disagree, despite being presented with evidence that her sources are indeed bogus crap.


I suppose in a sense this is a microcosm of the alt-right phenomena. People who are so insistent that they are RIGHT and everybody who disagrees with them is WRONG, that even when presented with endless examples of proof to the contrary, they just double down and go oh well no, I'm still right and you're all still wrong.


Just once it would be nice to see somebody express a bigotted view, and listen to the responses, and go hey, maybe you're right, maybe I should go and talk to some Trans people myself, instead of relying on transphobic hit-pieces by fundementalist nutjobs on the internet for my information, and get some first-hand evidence myself.


Anyway, congratulations to the Trans people and allies who devoted their time and thoughts to this thread, who did their best to get through to people.

I have not seen one valid argument proposed during the entire decade long trans debate that even attempts to explain how someone born one sex can validly think they are the other sex.

Also it seems no one's willing to admit sex change is impossible. It is just a form of mutilation.

Gender and sex are the same thing. This is a clear linguistic equivalent.

This isn't about religion or politics, it's about good science and bad science.

Psychologists, psychiatrists, and therapists are generally horrible scientists and this is yet another example of their devotion to money at the detriment of their patients.

I could list 100 major failures of their industry, like pushing poisons or actively attempting to diagnose anyone who questions gov't with disorders, etc, and this is just one example of how truly incorrect their professions are about almost everything. And how truly dangerous they are to your health as well.

And the pattern of "policing" anyone who questions this absurd unfounded ideology by immediately calling them a hater or bigot (ad hominem) shows they don't have a valid position to debate from to begin with.

The truth is our society has become insane. This issue is proof of that.

I don't care if people mutilate themselves but I refuse to share in their delusions. They are idiots. People do a lot of stupid things.

originally posted by: zosimov
As a "leftist" (I think) it is so disheartening to see any and all discussions on certain subjects reduced to add hominem attacks on any dissenting voices, labelling any attempt at discussing an alternate theory as "hate".

Please give me an example of Sheye's hate (ON THIS THREAD- as the accusations are being leveled on this thread).

Otherwise, what a sleezy tactic.

it sure feels like hate and personal attacks when someone who obviously has no idea what it's like to be you rails on about how they know better than you and a whole community of scientific and medical experts. All the big, reputable and major psych/medical organizations support the transition for individuals with GD and have documented success in doing so. That horse has been to beat to death and beat some more and more yet the same old turds come in and obstinately deny,deny and deny refusing to accept any narrative that does not align with their own prejudices.

That kind of brow beating is hateful and ignorant. It takes a toll as well. It is indicative of the kind of behavior that leads some Trans people to depression or worse, suicide. When a person is already emotionally vulnerable and afraid to be their authentic self this kind of brow beating serves no benevolent purpose. It is dangerous and just mean spirited.

Religion is a mental illness, prove your invisible sky man exists...oh wait you can't. Well you must be crazy because you worship an "entity" that you can not through scientific means prove exists. Furthermore you treat people like crap and as subhuman because your "skyman" says it's not only ok to do so but encourages such mean spirited narrow mindedness. Stop forcing your religion and all it's silly "rules" on the rest of us who want nothing to do with it. It should be removed from schools so that normal, healthy non religious kids don't have to be exposed to such dangerously delusional zealots. It should be removed from currency because having to see it forces me to accept your delusion. The difference between "the delusions" here is that one of them does not encourage people to judge and treat others like crap at the behest of an invisible sky man. I don't know about you but one of those sounds really crazy and bad for society as a whole. We coddle and cater to the loonies while they avoid paying taxes like the rest of us and even protect and hide sexual predators from justice but yeah I'm the insane villain here. I need a hug now and some ice cream or chocolate. I always feel emotionally drained after these threads.

a reply to: testingtesting

Have you never read the Bible?

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

Since when is disagreeing or showing concern , mean spirited ?

It is your community and like minded souls who have spewed the hatred because I dare to address the dangers of transitioning.

You insist on twisting the truth here , just as you insisted twisting your gender because you were unhappy about it.

You attack my God , with absolutely no care as to my feelings, so please don't get all depressed because someone is concerned and speaks out against transitioning.

I take all sorts of emotional hits for being Christian, but you have operations that change your sex, and you expect the whole world to applaud .
Guess what ? Many regretful transgendered are not applauding and this thread was to prove just that.
In fact some even counsel others to not have surgery.

Should I run off now and say I'm depressed now because my God has been spit on ? No , I shouldn't. I take it with a grain of salt and pray for people... like a big girl does. I suggest if you want to transition Phoenix , you put your big girl panties on and deal with disagreements like an adult, and not blame us for your depression.

Religion is a mental illness.

I take offence to that, you have insulted billions of people alive right now, and billions that have died believing at some point something better will happen to them.

One day it will be a fact that the transgender fad was a "mental illness" and it won't exist because Jesus will have cured all of you just like he cured leprosy when he was alive. Only then will people truly understand, after it's cured and gone.

FYI-nobody wanted to kill lepers, many people felt extreme pity for them, as did Jesus, but if a leper started trash talking religious Jews, you can be sure that would change in a hurry. This is a point the trans community needs to understand, there is natural empathetic human sympathy many Christians can have towards them, but tell them they are mentally ill for believing in God and you will have squandered any empathy that was left.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

By saying that "well all our institutions say so and so" is an argument from authority and a fallacy. It doesn't validate what they are saying.

The institutions used to say different, and may change their views in the future. The view itself must be substantiated properly on it's own merit to establish itself as true.

Consider the views of institutions historically. They were wrong very often.

Also consider that some institutions disagree on an issue. To say all of them support such and such is cherry picking and another fallacy. This is disingenuous.

To discredit some institutions while choosing not to discredit others (though we could discredit all of them on various grounds) is a fundamental error.

Also consider that each individual within those institutes does not fully agree on anything. These are serious problems.

This issue is controversial. Please acknowledge these fallacies and improve your argument form.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

it sure feels like hate and personal attacks when someone who obviously has no idea what it's like to be you...

Hmmm... isn't that pretty much the definition of a gender dysphoric individual? Someone who thinks they are someone who obviously has no idea what it's like to be that someone? As in a man thinking they are a woman and a woman thinking they are a man? Seems to me that you should understand that perfectly.

... rails on about how they know better than you and a whole community of scientific and medical experts.

Honest medical experts will outright state that they do not understand the causes -- much less cures -- for gender dysphoric individuals. Honest medical experts will be honest enough to tell all of us that there are no perfect answers, and that works for one individual will not work for another individual. They are also honest enough to tell us that even with their best efforts, transgender individuals with and without treatment are still suffering.

All the big, reputable and major psych/medical organizations support the transition for individuals with GD and have documented success in doing so.

And have documented failure as well.

More important, transgender persons themselves have stated their surgery was a failure to the extent that it did not fix what was broken.

That horse has been to beat to death and beat some more and more yet the same old turds come in and obstinately deny,deny and deny refusing to accept any narrative that does not align with their own prejudices.

Exactly. That gender reassignment surgery has been beat to death and beat some more and yet the same... um, folks come in and deny, deny, and deny that it is not only inappropriate and unsuccessful for many, but an absolute tragedy... because they refuse to accept any narrative that does not align with their own prejudices.

Others have said, and I will say it again, adults can do as they will to their own body, including this cosmetic surgery -- and yes, that is what it is. Cosmetic. It cannot and does not change gender, just body parts.

That kind of brow beating is hateful and ignorant. It takes a toll as well. It is indicative of the kind of behavior that leads some Trans people to depression or worse, suicide. When a person is already emotionally vulnerable and afraid to be their authentic self this kind of brow beating serves no benevolent purpose. It is dangerous and just mean spirited.

Emotional blackmail seldom ends well for the real and perceived victims. It also ignores the very real violence within and among the transgender community, including the high rates of intimate partner violence. Nor does it teach someone how to find their strength within themselves and deal with adversity of any kind. And it is exactly that lack of coping skills which leaves folks panicked, anxious and depressed.

Religion is a mental illness, prove your invisible sky man exists...oh wait you can't. Well you must be crazy because you worship an "entity" that you can not through scientific means prove exists. Furthermore you treat people like crap and as subhuman because your "skyman" says it's not only ok to do so but encourages such mean spirited narrow mindedness. Stop forcing your religion and all it's silly "rules" on the rest of us who want nothing to do with it. It should be removed from schools so that normal, healthy non religious kids don't have to be exposed to such dangerously delusional zealots. It should be removed from currency because having to see it forces me to accept your delusion. The difference between "the delusions" here is that one of them does not encourage people to judge and treat others like crap at the behest of an invisible sky man. I don't know about you but one of those sounds really crazy and bad for society as a whole. We coddle and cater to the loonies while they avoid paying taxes like the rest of us and even protect and hide sexual predators from justice but yeah I'm the insane villain here.

Wow! Don't mis-religion me!!!

More to the point, the OP has done an admirable job of being respectful and compassionate even in the face of these insults being hurled at her in this post, from threatening to report her and have her kids taken, to mocking and attacking her faith, to calling her a bigot, etc. She has shown true compassion and concern for those not helped by the almighty gender reassignment surgery -- which is VERY REAL -- and has been beaten and beaten like a dead horse by those who refuse to address their suffering beyond what they want to believe.

This OP isn't the problem... the problem are those who refuse to admit failure and find better answers than this one-size-fits-all crap.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

it sure feels like hate and personal attacks when someone who obviously has no idea what it's like to be you...

Hmmm... isn't that pretty much the definition of a gender dysphoric individual? Someone who thinks they are someone who obviously has no idea what it's like to be that someone? As in a man thinking they are a woman and a woman thinking they are a man? Seems to me that you should understand that perfectly.

... rails on about how they know better than you and a whole community of scientific and medical experts.

Honest medical experts will outright state that they do not understand the causes -- much less cures -- for gender dysphoric individuals. Honest medical experts will be honest enough to tell all of us that there are no perfect answers, and that works for one individual will not work for another individual. They are also honest enough to tell us that even with their best efforts, transgender individuals with and without treatment are still suffering.

All the big, reputable and major psych/medical organizations support the transition for individuals with GD and have documented success in doing so.

And have documented failure as well.

More important, transgender persons themselves have stated their surgery was a failure to the extent that it did not fix what was broken.

That horse has been to beat to death and beat some more and more yet the same old turds come in and obstinately deny,deny and deny refusing to accept any narrative that does not align with their own prejudices.

Exactly. That gender reassignment surgery has been beat to death and beat some more and yet the same... um, folks come in and deny, deny, and deny that it is not only inappropriate and unsuccessful for many, but an absolute tragedy... because they refuse to accept any narrative that does not align with their own prejudices.

Others have said, and I will say it again, adults can do as they will to their own body, including this cosmetic surgery -- and yes, that is what it is. Cosmetic. It cannot and does not change gender, just body parts.

That kind of brow beating is hateful and ignorant. It takes a toll as well. It is indicative of the kind of behavior that leads some Trans people to depression or worse, suicide. When a person is already emotionally vulnerable and afraid to be their authentic self this kind of brow beating serves no benevolent purpose. It is dangerous and just mean spirited.

Emotional blackmail seldom ends well for the real and perceived victims. It also ignores the very real violence within and among the transgender community, including the high rates of intimate partner violence. Nor does it teach someone how to find their strength within themselves and deal with adversity of any kind. And it is exactly that lack of coping skills which leaves folks panicked, anxious and depressed.

Religion is a mental illness, prove your invisible sky man exists...oh wait you can't. Well you must be crazy because you worship an "entity" that you can not through scientific means prove exists. Furthermore you treat people like crap and as subhuman because your "skyman" says it's not only ok to do so but encourages such mean spirited narrow mindedness. Stop forcing your religion and all it's silly "rules" on the rest of us who want nothing to do with it. It should be removed from schools so that normal, healthy non religious kids don't have to be exposed to such dangerously delusional zealots. It should be removed from currency because having to see it forces me to accept your delusion. The difference between "the delusions" here is that one of them does not encourage people to judge and treat others like crap at the behest of an invisible sky man. I don't know about you but one of those sounds really crazy and bad for society as a whole. We coddle and cater to the loonies while they avoid paying taxes like the rest of us and even protect and hide sexual predators from justice but yeah I'm the insane villain here.

Wow! Don't mis-religion me!!!

More to the point, the OP has done an admirable job of being respectful and compassionate even in the face of these insults being hurled at her in this post, from threatening to report her and have her kids taken, to mocking and attacking her faith, to calling her a bigot, etc. She has shown true compassion and concern for those not helped by the almighty gender reassignment surgery -- which is VERY REAL -- and has been beaten and beaten like a dead horse by those who refuse to address their suffering beyond what they want to believe.

This OP isn't the problem... the problem are those who refuse to admit failure and find better answers than this one-size-fits-all crap.

You do realize that your argument amounts to "I'm made of rubber and you're made of glue so whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" right?

What you people fail to understand is that when you say the things you do that you are openly questioning/attacking my sanity, intelligence, integrity, morality, indentity, individuality and I'm sure I could keep going. Then you stand back arms folded and say "we're only concerned for your well being" with a smug sense of self righteousness and wonder why we get pisssed. You mock, belittle and demean my very existence and accuse the community of some hive mind mentality which I promise we are not that unified. You preach fear of some sort of "Trans mafia" out to get your kids then sit back and act dumbfounded as to why we get irritated with your mental midgetry.

People like you are the exact opposite of allies to Trans people. Your views are hurtful and dangerous which makes you enemies in my eyes, no love lost as they say.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

Also I need to point out the flaw in the religious aspect of this.

Just because some dogmatic religious person says something does not have any bearing on truth. People say and think a lot of different things. This is generally irrelevant in terms of analyzing a claim and determining it's veracity.

So the fact this topic gets sucked into a religious dispute is a disservice to the quest for truth. This is first and foremost a discussion on biology, psychology, biochemistry, and neurology.

Do not allow religious spats or the question of if God is a viable concept interrupt this investigation.

There are a lot of religions that disagree on almost everything, each sect within each denomination tends to disagree on fundamental problems, and each individual within them cannot agree on everything.

We need to keep religion and morality as a whole out of the debate so that we can properly analyze the claims being made by each side in the dispute. This is called getting sidetracked into irrelevancies.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

You do realize that your argument amounts to "I'm made of rubber and you're made of glue so whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" right?

Big sad sigh here...

No, I don't "realize" that, because it said far more than just that. It's a crying shame that you cannot see beyond your own petty and childish games.

Especially when, as you keep pointing out, real people are hurting and need real help.

a reply to: muzzleflash
I have to agree with you.

Even if I was atheist , I would still have the same concerns in regards to transitioning, and would still guide my children away from the concept .

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33

Religion is a mental illness.

I take offence to that, you have insulted billions of people alive right now, and billions that have died believing at some point something better will happen to them.

One day it will be a fact that the transgender fad was a "mental illness" and it won't exist because Jesus will have cured all of you just like he cured leprosy when he was alive. Only then will people truly understand, after it's cured and gone.

FYI-nobody wanted to kill lepers, many people felt extreme pity for them, as did Jesus, but if a leper started trash talking religious Jews, you can be sure that would change in a hurry. This is a point the trans community needs to understand, there is natural empathetic human sympathy many Christians can have towards them, but tell them they are mentally ill for believing in God and you will have squandered any empathy that was left.

I don't want your empathy and I maintain that the condition of religion is s mental illness. Doesn't feel good to be repeatedly put down for "feelings" does it? You say you have faith in your religion well I gave faith in my indentity. We can agree to mutually respect each other's beliefs and be friends or we can fight and argue, it's up to you.

This is one of those instances where the debate is so absurdly out of control, off topic, and brimming with fallacious arguments where I think "I should write a thread on this so I can enforce the rules and control the thread".

ATS, you're a complete mess.

But the problem is I'm an extremely busy person lately and I've got so much on my plate already that I doubt I have time to really argue this issue properly in a committed fashion.

Just read my last two posts if you want to understand what I'm referring to.

It's unbelievably time consuming and challenging to lead a high class debate in a community where everyone's on a different educational level. I don't have time to teach everyone everything. I'm also very consumed in my own scholastic pursuit.

I'll just put it this way::
ATS you're a complete mess and every one of you needs to study way more, think more deeply, and critically analyze yourselves more often.

As it is currently - this is a madhouse.

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix


Religion is a mental illness, prove your invisible sky man exists...oh wait you can't. Well you must be crazy because you worship an "entity" that you can not through scientific means prove exists. Furthermore you treat people like crap and as subhuman because your "skyman" says it's not only ok to do so but encourages such mean spirited narrow mindedness. Stop forcing your religion and all it's silly "rules" on the rest of us who want nothing to do with it. It should be removed from schools so that normal, healthy non religious kids don't have to be exposed to such dangerously delusional zealots. It should be removed from currency because having to see it forces me to accept your delusion. The difference between "the delusions" here is that one of them does not encourage people to judge and treat others like crap at the behest of an invisible sky man. I don't know about you but one of those sounds really crazy and bad for society as a whole. We coddle and cater to the loonies while they avoid paying taxes like the rest of us and even protect and hide sexual predators from justice but yeah I'm the insane villain here. I need a hug now and some ice cream or chocolate. I always feel emotionally drained after these threads.

The only kind of bigotry that is guaranteed to get you some "cool points"- bigotry against the religious. PS I had read your post keenly up until this paragraph because I thought it might be worth something. My bad.

originally posted by: muzzleflash
a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

Also I need to point out the flaw in the religious aspect of this.

Just because some dogmatic religious person says something does not have any bearing on truth. People say and think a lot of different things. This is generally irrelevant in terms of analyzing a claim and determining it's veracity.

So the fact this topic gets sucked into a religious dispute is a disservice to the quest for truth. This is first and foremost a discussion on biology, psychology, biochemistry, and neurology.

Do not allow religious spats or the question of if God is a viable concept interrupt this investigation.

There are a lot of religions that disagree on almost everything, each sect within each denomination tends to disagree on fundamental problems, and each individual within them cannot agree on everything.

We need to keep religion and morality as a whole out of the debate so that we can properly analyze the claims being made by each side in the dispute. This is called getting sidetracked into irrelevancies.

Religion is simply the most common source of resistance cited against the Trans community. I merely threw it out there as a point of comparison to how one form of behavior/belief can in modern times be made to seem very delusional while the other has wide support in the medical community. People used to think the "gods" were angry when a volcanoes erupted but we now know better.