France and Germany to develop new European fighter jet

a reply to: Flanker86

So will you ever back up anything you say or are you just a one hit wonder?

Things that make you go hmmm.

www.janes.com...

a reply to: Zaphod58

Curiously, I see a lot of T-50 features on Airbus' released artwork, with the front fuselage of the BAE Replica. Early days.

a reply to: waynos

That was my first reaction too.

a reply to: waynos

Ditto Waynos.....turn it upside down and stick it on a pole by the fence :-)

France and Germany are open to others joining the new fighter project:

www.reuters.com... ype=RSS&feedName=worldNews

originally posted by: anzha

France and Germany are open to others joining the new fighter project:

www.reuters.com... ype=RSS&feedName=worldNews

And this will where it will end:

France’s Dassault Aviation

I like the idea of a commercial, successful multi- 'European' sans internal politics type of model.

The problem over here seems to be that to live on the continent of Europe you need to be in the EU according to France and Germany. Its reminds of those manager at work who empire build, when a dotted line is fine, but they demand to be in control and in charge of someone else budget.

Im pretty sure that a Typhoon/Rafale combination would have has more sales and more revenue and more performance than the French take your toys home type of agreement which would have cost the french less too.

Unless they learn from that, the minute Germany and France put pen to paper will be a nightmare fight of political arrogance.

Sweden are pretty cool, we signed up to export their Grippen, an amazing aircraft built by an amazing defence company, with Sweden, UK, Italy, France and Germany (still not sure what the spanish bring to the party but they are invited) and with a clear and fair goal in sight, we could work on awesome 6th Gen 'systems'

However, I dont trust Germany or France, from what I have seen in politics, both countries are untrustworthy with empire building desires. I would much rather let them get on with their ideologies and work with the Americans, providing May and Trump make up in Vegas.

originally posted by: anzha
France and Germany are open to others joining the new fighter project:

I hope the UK don't join this programme if it's led by Airbus and Dassault. The UK would be very helpful in pump priming and giving the tech to make it work, but ultimately it would be a French show. Better for the UK to find other defence alliances if the EU want to make the UK subservient in this way.

They have even nicked the names "Future Combat Air System" from the Brits. The French are laughing into their foie gras at the thought of finally being the centre of attention.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: anzha
France and Germany are open to others joining the new fighter project:

I hope the UK don't join this programme if it's led by Airbus and Dassault. The UK would be very helpful in pump priming and giving the tech to make it work, but ultimately it would be a French show. Better for the UK to find other defence alliances if the EU want to make the UK subservient in this way.

They have even nicked the names "Future Combat Air System" from the Brits. The French are laughing into their foie gras at the thought of finally being the centre of attention.

Whilst I agree with you your sentiment, i wont put words in your mouth so I will say that I dislike and mistrust the French, not in a general way, ie. every French person, but in terms of what i deems as disrespectful and arrogant with their political class. Not saying the UK politicos are any better, but at least they are ours!

Ive said before, I worked at Warton during FOAS which was a UK/Franco project called Future Offensive Air System. Rumour at the time was the Americans wouldnt do any business with us with the French in the room so the French were placed in a temporary (now 25 years old temporary) building on the edge of the airfield. I dont recall any UK/US partnerships that would drive this except Replica did come out some time after FOAS so must have been in Development.

I suppose i dont really believe it as much now, there is a wide spread dislike of the French in many areas of the UK and and at the time they were seen as leaking Conocorde plans to the Russians and stealing EFA ides to make Rafale whereby we in the aircraft industry could really take that stereotype to the next level and we did.

The largest problem with FOAS at the time (non tech) was that it was politically incorrect to have an Offensive system, it all had to be about defence, I dont recall FOAS being renamed FCAS directly, as I remember it, FOAS went away for a while, Typhoon was coming into service and who knows what was happening with Replica and the F-35 which seemed to fit the FOAS bit.

UK industry then joined together to look at Taranis amongst many other UAVs to show the UK what industry can do.

I suppose at some point post Taranis and Neuron, FCAS came back on the radar but I couldnt pin the two as an direct follow on from FOAS.

What does interest me though is why we continue this 'European' dream, the biggest wars in 200 years have been internal to Europe and the USA and Commonwealth have won these for others to start again, apologise, forget, forgive.....apart from location, I have no idea why the US, Canada, UK, NZ, Aus and perhaps some others create the CUJDA - Commonwealth, US and Japan Defence Agency, we can also invite Sweden.

I would let those Europeans sort their own sh1t out, we dont need mexican walls, we just get a defence force that can work with immigration and the police to turf them back to france or republic of ireland.

a reply to: Forensick

I do not distrust the French per se, but previous collaborations and attempts at collaboration demonstrate that their expectation is that you give the money, and they do what they want and get all the benefit. Two points:

1. The EU industrial strategy will be roped into this future arrangement, so we can see players like BAE being pushed out because they are a competitor. The interesting high value stuff will sit in France or Germany. The UK will supply the rubber for the tyres, or the wing mirrors.
2. Are the French and German defence requirements similar? Germany may want a local interceptor, while France wants multi-tasking and naval.

The F35 is an interesting example of a collaborative programme. Yes its hugely expensive and all that, but the UK as the only level 1 partner has benefited quite well from a work-share perspective. I doubt the French would be so generous.

Def journal and Britishness of the F35

a reply to: Flanker86

There will need to be a lot of collaboration on 6th gen, simply because of costs and the fact that the US will be unlikely to share some of the real big breakthroughs with everyone else. I realise that the old saying "Too many cooks spoil the broth" applies more to aerospace than the cullinary arts, but maybe there can be collaboration of things like engines, material science, manufacturing technology, weapons commonality, radar and ECM tech, and leave leeway for each nation to design its own airframe and do final systems integration?

Either way, a broad EU collaboration that can then persuade Japan and perhaps South Korea to join in would be the way to go, if the project management side can be structured the right way. That said...something like this can easily end up spending tens of billion of euros in cost overruns and end up with something rather mediocre, not matter how smart and capable the team is. But one lives in hope...

Turkey?Iran?

a reply to: paraphi

I also heard it will have A.I..When it Senses an Enemy Target , it goes in the Opposite Direction,.,,,,

A new jet, from the guys who built the Concorde but then weren't able to develop a follow-up ?

That's definitely not gonna happen. Just neo-feudalist teasing young kids into believing there's going to be progress in EUrope. These people can't put together Legos anymore.

a reply to: Flanker86

Do you ever get tired of posting BS?

a reply to: Flanker86
Oh yeah...Airbus....

a reply to: Flanker86

Anyone know the guys who made a somewhat successful supersonic airliner - the ultimate supercruiser - and are now the biggest manufacturer of commercial aircraft in the world? Let's call this country or union "A".

Anyone knows the guys who tried to copy Concorde, but ended up with a lemon which fell apart for no reason at an airshow despite Concorde flying more passenger flights in one week, than it ever flew? And now they have essentially none of the commercial market, from a country with a declining population, rampant alcoholism issues, low life expectancy, poor education, ran by someone who controls the media, who meddle in other countries elections, and who pay trolls to disrupt conversations online (like this one)?

Right.

Now there's even a 6th-generation jet. I mean ... a 3d model of it ... If they are as fast as with EF-2000 development, maybe it will be operational before it's obsolete