Ice Director Says There Could Be More Than 12 MILLION ILLEGALS In US

a reply to: marg6043


They were all invited and entered through the front door. There was no welfare state, everyone had to stand on their own or be supported by their local community. Many like to call early immigrants invaders. They were also called pioneers, settlers, explorers, etc..

Illegals put billions more into the tax system than they cost. Literally billions annually in just property taxes.

How about the politicians, employers, and law enforcement breaking the law and exploiting get deported, defamed, and have their bank accounts confiscated to pay for the illegals to become naturalized.

a reply to: luthier

Illegals put billions more into the tax system than they cost. Literally billions annually in just property taxes.

Please, elaborate on this, if you don't mind.

Why would someone who can afford to own a home legally in the US have to risk life and limb to get here in the desert?

Being paid under the table because you are not a citizen is dodging tax dollars, at least the last time I checked. Other than paying taxes on their food, their sangria, their cigarettes, their hydraulic controllable vehicles, they don't pay taxes on income.

And I'll bet you, of the illegal ones, almost all of them receive food stamps and a majority (in the west coast) receive welfare. And don't forget that by offering to do jobs for less than someone who would be on the books (that includes any entry level service job) they are actually undercutting the labor force and driving wages down.

I know you're a smart guy, we've spoken on many of issues that we've agreed upon. I'm just asking that you go into a little more detail as per your claims.

originally posted by: EternalShadow
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Please reread my post. I said NOTHING about random or stopping people.

Let me clarify.

If it comes to your attention by whatever means, and it is COMPLETELY confirmed that an individual is illegal, do you have a civic duty to turn them in?

See? No witch hunt or round ups.

Do you have a civic duty to detain and/or turn in people you can confirm are using illegal substances such as weed, assuming it's illegal in your city? I mean, they are committing a crime in your neighborhood after all. if you do for one, you do for all crimes/criminals, right? Need a cape and mask?

a reply to: ColdWisdom

Sure.

It's very simple.

Most illegals are in a class where savings is not used. So what happens is they spend all there income on rent, cars, sometimes insurance, they get buyers and buy homes after they have been carpenters for several years in the us. A portion goes home to families as well.

They come here because it's very easy to get a job from the real cheaters. The employers. In a state like Texas it's nearly impossible to have a residential construction crew on the books completely because your competitors are using cheaper labor. Rick Perry himself became rich using illegals in building projects.

The people making a killing are their employers who find ways of dodging billions collectively in workman's comp, taxes, etc then reinvest the scammed money they saved,...and it's actually states like Texas who have right to work philosophies that have the most illegals.

Lots of economic journals have studied the input vs output of illegal workers.

Haven't even gotten to the savings you get at the grocery store or Sq footage in a new home, in just about any state close to the boarder.

The illegal boogeyman is a hoax. It would instantly be mitigated with work visa programs. They would also effect Consumer prices and the cpi however.

The illegals are a foundation of a fake market. It's a sad fact of keeping the cpi in check since inflation is completely decided by central banks now.

a reply to: marg6043
Wrong.

Citizenship is not a test of the 14th Amendment. Even tourists have these same rights when visiting America. IF someone from South Africa is charged with a crime while in America, he or she gets the exact same 14th Amendment rights as a citizen living down the street. Doesn't matter if that person is here on a visa, expired visa, tourist card, expired tourist card, work program, or anything else.

You do understand that immigration courts are a real thing, and they are doing quite the business. Every illegal immigrant detained has his or her day in court prior to a determination is made to deport or not. The dockets are backlogged for months.

a reply to: marg6043
Wrong.

Citizenship is not a test of the 14th Amendment. Even tourists have these same rights when visiting America. IF someone from South Africa is charged with a crime while in America, he or she gets the exact same 14th Amendment rights as a citizen living down the street. Doesn't matter if that person is here on a visa, expired visa, tourist card, expired tourist card, work program, or anything else.

You do understand that immigration courts are a real thing, and they are doing quite the business. Every illegal immigrant detained has his or her day in court prior to a determination is made to deport or not. The dockets are backlogged for months.

originally posted by: usernameconspiracy

originally posted by: EternalShadow
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Please reread my post. I said NOTHING about random or stopping people.

Let me clarify.

If it comes to your attention by whatever means, and it is COMPLETELY confirmed that an individual is illegal, do you have a civic duty to turn them in?

See? No witch hunt or round ups.

Do you have a civic duty to detain and/or turn in people you can confirm are using illegal substances such as weed, assuming it's illegal in your city? I mean, they are committing a crime in your neighborhood after all. if you do for one, you do for all crimes/criminals, right? Need a cape and mask?

Perhaps we all do! A government for the People by the People is only secured by the vigilance of the People.

Apathy is a MAJOR reason for why things are the way that they are.

The whole "There are enough people that are aware of the problem that personally I don't need to do anything about it" attitude is what continually keeps us divided.

Time to stand together or we're going to lose it all.

I care not for the laws of men.
Someone from another country have never hurt me.
They have never hurt anyone I love.
I have never lost a job because of an illegal.

I will not be a part of any action that harms
people who have never harmed me.
That is my moral code. To do otherwise
would be evil.

a reply to: EternalShadow

Apathy, but also critical thinking skills...what are you turning in? Migel who has been here 15 years working as a concrete supervisor or his boss dodgin a crew of hundreds taxes, or the consumer for demanding prices require slave labor or illegals?

I wonder why they never made a work visa program for 12 million Mexican workers?

Hmm wonder why we don't ask the right questions sometimes?

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: EternalShadow

Apathy, but also critical thinking skills...what are you turning in? Migel who has been here 15 years working as a concrete supervisor or his boss dodgin a crew of hundreds taxes, or the consumer for demanding prices require slave labor or illegals?

I wonder why they never made a work visa program for 12 million Mexican workers?

Hmm wonder why we don't ask the right questions sometimes?

The market would have adjusted accordingly if the dam was corked in the first place. That's the excuse for "well, it's too late now", which can be applied to your "Migel" scenario as well.

What is it that makes folks excuse or empathize with criminality?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: EternalShadow
ETA: What about a citizens arrest? Since illegals have no rights, is it fair to say you could detain individuals until ICE or local law enforcement arrives?
What if local law enforcement chooses not do anything about it? What's the recourse and remedy for that?

You don't want to go around trying to citizens arrest random people you come across, you will end up getting your ass handed to you in a civil suit if the police, once they arrive, deicide not to arrest the person you wrongfully detained. And even if they do arrest them and they are subsequently not charged you are still screwed.

Maybe a 'no fault' clause amendment or exclusion from suits

originally posted by: Plotus
Maybe a 'no fault' clause amendment or exclusion from suits

No thanks. I don't want to enable a bunch of yahoos into thinking they are cops when they haven't even taken a criminal justice course.

a reply to: EternalShadow

Which criminality? The market did not adjust which is why there was a labor void.

The building booms in Texas required labor that did not exist and the market needed solutions so there was a literal conspiracy by the US government and industry to allow it for the sake of the cpi.


So no I don't blame the guys and gals who came to work and we're allowed to do so for decades. It is completely immoral to not have created a visa program. So I happen to believe they should be allowed to naturalize if they learn English and are assimilated into America.

We can also get rid of graduating not speaking English.

The government is at fault here and probably needs to address that and realize it's far cheaper and a better financial decision to naturalized those willing and close the boarder off and deport those unwilling.

By the way do you think 12 million people could come to a us that wouldn't employ them?

Why are the employers not going to jail and having their assets seized everyday? As a carpenter from the south there are 10's of thousands of employers who evade taxes employing illegals.

Do you source your produce? Of not your most likely tacitly supporting the whole system.

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
I care not for the laws of men.
Someone from another country have never hurt me.
They have never hurt anyone I love.
I have never lost a job because of an illegal.

I will not be a part of any action that harms
people who have never harmed me.
That is my moral code. To do otherwise
would be evil.

Any and all Americans who would share your sentiment need to get off their moral high horses and realize that your own government harms people that don't harm you directly therefore making you personally complicit.

You don't get off that easy , sorry.

a reply to: EternalShadow

Not trying to "get off" of anything. I know I have blood on my hands.

It sounds like your saying because my government has hurt innocent people I should just go along with it
every time?

Have Western Union tell us how much money is being sent to Mexico and not spent in the US.

There are many patriotic, rah rah American business men illegally employing these people. Pay them a visit.

Of course it's been illegal for a long time and the hiring is probably more abused today then in the past. Just more broken laws.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Plotus
Maybe a 'no fault' clause amendment or exclusion from suits

No thanks. I don't want to enable a bunch of yahoos into thinking they are cops when they haven't even taken a criminal justice course.

Those so called yahoo's would very likely get the job done.

originally posted by: Plotus
Those so called yahoo's would very likely get the job done.

Doubtful since they have a minimal grasp of the law and if we cant even get all police officers to respect our rights how can we expect a bunch cowboys to accomplish this.

trump promised to solve this the morning after, yet another failed promise.