The Vertical Plane by Ken Webster - Is this proof of Time manipulation and travel or just a story?

I have now tweet Ken, Spammed his work web master contact email, and submitted requests to his publisher. As well I have just left a post at the forum where they last posted. Here are all my fingers and toes crossed.

If by some crazy chance you end up here reading this guys, I hope you can see my intentions are pure and honest. Please contact me, I again promise I will not do any of the things you have had to deal with in the past from crazy people like me. I am simply asking for a yes or no, that is all.

originally posted by: sputniksteve
Anyone live near Brasenose College Oxford? I know we have a few UK folks watching. That was Thomas school. I will call them first thing in the morning UK time and see if I can speak to someone in the Library or History department. If anyone is close they could possibly go there with the book description and make better head way thank I can.

I don't know why I never thought of this until right now. You guys are geniuses.

You guys are never going to believe this. I am struggling with it myself at the moment.

This screen name that I have used since 2007, is after my deceased cat.

My plans for sleeping are done, I'm gonna walk till I can't. Then we will just see what happens tomorrow.

Sleep well guys.

a reply to: sputniksteve

I think instead of focusing on Lukas's computer, the focus should be directed on Lukas himself.

Oh, if only you had listened. At present you have two lukases running around your house, if at any time the two are to meet we cannot explain the devastation that will errupt within the time continum. We must stop communication with Lukas one, but we cannot interfere with the other, while we decide what can be done to rectify the problem. You must help by giving us every word uttered by Thomas Hawardine from the second you received his true name. You must also state how much information you have on this man-everything! Word for word. Avoid any other communication you may have with him. Desperation. Be quick!.

Thomas is a person living in the 16th century, but, unknown to him, he is not quite what he seems to be.

(Now I know it's possible 2109 are outright lying about everything, but at first we should just assume they are telliing, albeit cryptic, truth. And lets look at their motive, what were they trying to accomplish?)

So there isn't just Lukas. There are 2 Lukas's(or "Thomas's). And he isn't what he seems to be. Could this mean one Lukas is the material, flesh and blood version, and the other version is just consciousness, which has for whatever reason duplicated itself from Lukas's body.
I think 2109 were there to solve a problem, and make sure things run smoothly. Like their talk of "coincidences" the last one happening in 1941. So imagine, every so and so years at certain locations the Dimensions/Realities/Time folds on itself or fractures; causing strange effects. One strange effect could be Lukas's consciousness fracturing/duplicating itself, along with all the paranormal entities and other strange communications. And 2109 over watch each "coincidence", making sure nothing disastrous happens.
If the two Lukas's met, the consequences would be disastrous(apparently).
So maybe setting up a comunication with Ken and one Lukas would help 2109 keep track of him, making sure the two never met each other., until the "coincidence" was over, or until they somehow destroyed the second consciousness of Lukas.
But how the being named "One" fits into this little scenario...hmm... Maybe he was another faction, from another dimension from 2109 and was also there to oversee it, make sure no disasters happened?

As for the group speaking cryptically. Imagine them in their dimension, looking over at the chaotic human race, with its inferior understandings of science and their sociopathic, deceitful, parasitic leaders, you would be extremely careful what knowledge you grant them. So, speaking very cryptically to an insignificant person, and instructing them to write an obscure book would be the best way to give humans knowledge. Because this way, the information 2109 wants humans to know goes only to a select few. A very small number who read between the lines and were open minded and objective enough to work out their messages.

Anyway, it would be almost impossible to NOT speak cryptically if the beings you are talking about have 5% understanding of the way the universe really is. You could only throw them some seeds; little bits of information to open the mind, which spawn ideas and gradually lead to the truth.

So,yeah. Anyone else got any thoughts on the whole "2 Lukas's" fiasco?

a reply to: CromCruachh

So,yeah. Anyone else got any thoughts on the whole "2 Lukas's" fiasco?

We have been provided a link to the German site where the cover art for the book can be viewed.

If you value and pursue the computer links for 1985 you might think the computer is an apple or is that peach fuzz in the artwork?
Peachtree software was more geared to accounting than word processing so maybe no link there.

Why in 1985 did Bjarne Stroustrup name his programming language C++ with two plus signs?

The 1990's web site for the movie "Hackers" suggested buying the book "learn C++ in 21 days".
Successfully navigation of that site led to a CIA sponsored info-site for kids but that was Steves link.

There just aren't any more sharable links that aren't a result of cherry picking personal choice that branch the logic.

Back at this and I can say it's heartily discouraging.

Gary Rowe isn't talking.
The principals Ken & Deb aren't talking.

Does anyone besides me think it's odd they have a smaller footprint on the internet than, well, most?

Gary Rowe "seems" to have been genuinely spooked by something. His scare is apparently long lasting which I find odd after all these years. It also seems to be a bit much to be afraid of 2109 since it was basically a disembodied entity using a computer, alto I'm gathering some other sleights of hand were attributed to them.

Methods of investigation were very different than what we have now, which is why I'm so puzzled. Some of his fear should have lessened by now. Not remained the same.

I'm not being dismissive of what the three experienced, just perplexed about their reactions long term to this. I can see how ken and Deb would be inclined to walk away, but I haven't picked up the fear out of them like Rowe.

Over here in what I call "Caver Land" my tiny bubble if you will, is it possible Rowe discovered "the who" of Vallee's control system? I mean I know 1985/86 was awhile ago but surely SOMEONE informed 2109 there's a bunch of other entities masquerading about humanity trying to be the "One big kahuna"? So why haven't they cleaned up that mess?

Not to mention 2109 by interfering is violating our free will so how on earth does that make them any better than any other entity with a messianic attitude? I didn't get the impression this was any sort of equal quid-pro-quo so? Why would we care what they say? Other than as a window into their own schtick?

Like the OP I'm just spit-balling and seeing what sticks.

Communicating in riddles only works if both parties have a common framework, which I haven't seen evidenced. I'm just not seeing a point to their riddles other than to NOT truthfully answer a question but more to confound the receivers and any others who get involved. You can literally read whatever you want into them but I see it as a diversion. At least until proven otherwise.

In fact, and I've thought about this if you needed to send a message back in time that wouldn't alter the time line but equally be truthful it would have been easy to allude to the stock market crash of 2008 and merely mention having all your assets in one basket would be unwise.

Or which volcano would spout off and make air travel difficult.

There actually are MANY innocuous ways to prove you're legit without blowing up our timeline. More concrete ones. Pointing out that vacationing in Thailand might be a mistake for instance? Things like that are generic enough.

I can't but help from my perspective see this as a type of con, but maybe cause I'm jaded. NOT a con by the human participants, but by 2109?

a reply to: sputniksteve

Well, that post was rather enigmatic and has me a bit worried about you!!

I don't understand the connection between the phone call to the college and your screen name, but something about it has you freaked out, so I hope you will share the details at some point..

It actually really concerns me to think of you out walking in the middle of the night 'carrying' such disturbing knowledge (whatever it may be)..

a reply to: lostgirl

"Ken, Deb, Peter, True are the nightmares of those that fear. What you fear wil be your reality if you let it, believe in yourselves. Safe are the bodies of the silent world. As long as your kind cannot penetrate our world we are safe. Turn pretty flower turn towards the sun, for you shall grow and sow but the flower reaches too high and withers in the burning light. Knowledge will be your progress but your kind are coming close to getting their fingers burnt...indirectly, you may prevent this! Get out your bricks. Get ready to build (write the book!). Pussy cat, Pussy cat went to London to Seek fame and fortune. The cat went to visit the queen, but instead frightened a little mouse under the chair, ultimately, London will be a significant place, stick to your main aims, it doesn’t matter how hard they seem to get, do not be distracted by that tiny mouse that has a deceiving charm. Faith must not be lost….! You all rely on each others faith. There is another person to come, they will be the help we need. You will know them when they come. Thomas did eventually write his book and soon died, shortley after, he placed it in a secure place, it shouldn’t take too many years to find it, though he wrote it in Latin with the help of a friend that he met in Oxford, the inscription reads “me wryts this in the hope that myne felaws will one day find this boke, then may ower lands be not soe distant”. We will finnish now you have alot of work to do!! There is no need for you to write back as we will have gone. Thank you for your cooperation. - 2109"

Final message from 2109. Read carefully. See if you can look through my authored threads where I tell the story of SputnikSteve. It was damn near a decade ago here now.

I am cool I promise, just an exciting night. I am going to cool it on this thread for a minute until I can figure out my next step. Everything kind of changed. Ill be back tomorrow or Monday.

Crunch I will reply to you tomorrow concerning your post, just need a day off from thinking about this.

This is sooooooooooo exciting, go go go SputnickSteve!

a reply to: lostgirl

I'm not sure what I would have said had I been aboard 2109's mystery ship.
I've felt the cold wind.
A fear response doesn't make sense though, a flower turns to face the sun.

a reply to: Caver78

Imo, their keeping a low profile doesn't surprise me. The events described are mind bending, and it could be hard for them to deal with. I'm skeptical of the info from 2109. Once Mr. Rowe was involved, he was hopefully able to make better sense of what happened in Dodleston. He may have shared in private with them and enabled everyone to move forward with their lives.

Reading over the comments from the blog, I got the impression he was supportive of others reviewing the book to look for answers...

a reply to: sputniksteve

Your thread has had me thinking about the nature of causality.The verses about the cat have me thinking about cats and my cat too.I thought it was out of left field, but am encouraged by you mentioning your own cat...

I'm looking to quote the cat verses by 2109, it's a little ambiguous how often they brought this up.I'll quote this part of your post for context:

Get out your bricks. Get ready to build (write the book!). Pussy cat, Pussy cat went to London to Seek fame and fortune. The cat went to visit the queen, but instead frightened a little mouse under the chair, ultimately, London will be a significant place, stick to your main aims, it doesn’t matter how hard they seem to get, do not be distracted by that tiny mouse that has a deceiving charm. Faith must not be lost….! You all rely on each others faith.

This may not make much sense, though I wanted to bring it up due to the odd nature of the story recounted in The Vertical Plane.I don't have the book, but am confident the info you shared is enough to start connecting the dots.

Reading the quote mentioning the cat in the earlier part of the thread, I couldn't help get the impression of the story of Puss in Boots.I looked into trying to form a connection there, having not been familiar with the original tale.The story and the versions I varied.I didn't really now all that much about the story, and was hoping to find something to do with London.Looking at the wikipedia page (wiki, i know) I noticed the page referencing the oldest written record of Puss in Boots originates in around roughly Thomas era. Idk, if I was getting any hotter with that, but that's ok.

Puss in Boots can be considered french, but has roots in different cultures.The story is about involves a king, and France.Eh, now a days, non binary and globalism are issues so I was intrigued about London.In 1941, I believe our neighbours across the pond were going through hell during WW2 (German attack via the Luftwaffe). Perhaps, someone back then was experimenting with time, looking for answers?

While reflecting on the thread the other day, and thought I saw my cat.I was on my way walking over to a field I like to sit in, and noticed it. It looked like my cat.This really intrigued me, because my cat went missing and we had assumed it passed away. 17 years was a good run, my old lady had given me her as a Valentine's day present.I loved Boots, and seeing a similar cat while thinking about all this was really interesting.

I had noticed the cat before me was younger, and nose was a little different.No matter, I smiled inside Boots is with me in my heart and that will never change.


I felt like mentioning something about Puss in Boots earlier, but was reluctant because it didn't seem to make any sense.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

We don't need no education / We don't need no thought control / No dark sarcasm in the classroom / Teachers leave them kids alone

Pink Floyd were founded in 1965 in London not sure about the theme for the song though.

I don't want to put anything in anyone's ear, you can build shelters or prisons with bricks.

a reply to: Cauliflower

True, and I feel my reluctance to contribute has been due to the nature of 2109's syntax.It's paradoxical, I am not afraid.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

Sweet story about your walk and your cat.


I read what Mr.Rowe had to say on that blog and he does indeed seem encouraging. When he isn't warning people off of trying to contact 2109. I looked at Chaldean Numerology a little bit, but the fascination with it escapes me.

It's been difficult reconciling his fear of 2109 with his encouragement for people to keep plugging at solving this. Quite a dichotomy. One part of me wants to take it at face value, and the other reminds me that overtime someone gets a genuine response (from whatever weird) that they have this type of response because it's bourne out of inexperience.

I'm not saying Mr.Rowe in his time with SRI was it? Wasn't a great investigator, on the contrary, it's just if you haven't had repeated contact with some of the oddities in our world, from what I've seen this is typical response. It takes many
experiences before you finally get gutsy and start pushing back.

It's difficult to determine with him which it is.
Genuine logical fear, or more of an instant recoiling because 2109 dug around in his head for material and shocked him with it, passing it off as "knowing the future/past".

Plus you're taking roughly 32 years ago. We aren't as naive as we were and after BEK's, Mothman,UFO's, Grey Aliens, and all the information we've now gotten under our belt whatever 2109 showed him in those envelopes would probably be tame in comparison.

This is where I'm a little stuck. I truly can't tell if this is worthy of the response I'm seeing out of him or not.

If he is correct than I fear opening up the 2109 can of worms might not be a great idea, if it just spooked him then I have to ask how would this be different from any other channeled entity? Most of which seem to just be playing around with humans for the attention.

Catch my drift?

Reviewing the thread yesterday, some more ideas came to mind.I mentioned my skepticism of the info from 2109, earlier.I usually consider information sources like 2109 "intelligence" of some sort.I imagine them as a hybrid intelligence. CromCruachh and dingdongdoodah ideas make a lot of sense to me in that context.I'll save exploring that angle for another post.

Attempting to give everyone in the story the benefit of the doubt, this is what came to mind...

I liked the concept skynet2015 mentioned about consciousness and ME. CromCruachh then brought the idea of serialism to the table.I hadn't heard of the term before, and I spent some time mulling over the idea in the context of timelines/timezones or whatever you would like to call your local space/time paradigm.

originally posted by: CromCruachh
Snippet of Serialism theory copied from Wiki;
The theory resolves the issue by proposing a higher dimension of Time, t2, in which our consciousness experiences its travelling along the timeline in t1. The physical brain itself inhabits only t1, requiring a second level of mind to inhabit t2 and it is at this level that the observer experiences consciousness.

But Dunne found that his logic led to a similar difficulty with t2 in that the passage between successive events in t2 was not included in the model. This led to an even higher t3 in which a third-level observer could experience not just the mass of events in t2 but the passage of those experiences in t2, and so on in the infinite regress of time dimensions and observers which gives the theory its name.

Things that make you go hmm...

Idk, semantics is an issue when it comes to describing our ideas about how we perceive reality, but the serialism idea felt like something constructive to work with, and made sense to me but not necessarily in those words.

From what I gather, the different dimensions of time noted as t1,t2,t3,t(ect) could be used as a description of the various levels that time is experienced by perception in their awareness.

Imo, looking at the events recounted in the story from the perspective of the participants in separate time-zones, may be worthwhile to help garner meaning from what happened.

So we have those in the distant past.Thomas/Lucas and the Sheriff.I think their perception of time would most likely be more heavily weighted in a linear sense.The river, so to speak.

Those back in England circa mid 80's looking at time in a more cyclical/vertical sense.The scene from recent movie "Arrival" where the explorers started walking on the walls was evoked for me, thinking about the steps on the wall.The experiences in Dodleston would have no doubt been a catalyst for this kind of thinking on one level or another. After all, the name of Ken's book is "The Vertical Plane."I guess the take away is that those looking at events in 80's probably saw time more as range of future possibilities rather then something etched in stone.

2109 in their zone, may be more weighted towards a vertical/cyclical sense of time, and working towards a fractal understanding.I think they are not entirely human, so I don't know exactly where they are.I feel they may have been motivated to reach back for a good reason though.Perhaps their hardware was failing?

I get the impression One has a deeper understanding, perhaps more heavily weighed in a fractal form of perception, refining towards the infinite.

So I think that everyone met on the vertical plane, for this story.The events served as a heads up and were necessary for 2109 to remember something or execute a program of some sort.They alluded to humans being special in a way, hopefully they found what they were looking for.By the way, I don't think 2109 was necessarily from 2109, rather it may be a reference to an address or perhaps the year Thomas book may be found?

Basically, what I am contemplating is that each of the individuals involved were learning to resolve the nature of time for themselves, in a way that they could understand.Not as distinct categories per se, rather as a range.

I appreciate everyone's contributions to the thread, I have no doubt I would have been able unable to think of this on my own.Hopefully, this perspective sheds some more light on what may have happened...

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

Free associating is always good exercise and is often a therapeutic catharsis.
Pink Floyd wrote another song about "Lucifer Sam, siam cat" which kind of explains "alien hand" syndrome.

Thank you Caver78.I was typing out my next post before seeing response.Hopefully it fills in some blanks for the way I am currently looking at this thread.

originally posted by: Caver78
I read what Mr.Rowe had to say on that blog and he does indeed seem encouraging. When he isn't warning people off of trying to contact 2109. I looked at Chaldean Numerology a little bit, but the fascination with it escapes me.

It's been difficult reconciling his fear of 2109 with his encouragement for people to keep plugging at solving this. Quite a dichotomy. One part of me wants to take it at face value, and the other reminds me that overtime someone gets a genuine response (from whatever weird) that they have this type of response because it's bourne out of inexperience.

I'm not saying Mr.Rowe in his time with SRI was it? Wasn't a great investigator, on the contrary, it's just if you haven't had repeated contact with some of the oddities in our world, from what I've seen this is typical response. It takes many
experiences before you finally get gutsy and start pushing back.

I feel his reluctance may stem from not wanting anyone to lose their sanity thinking about the nature of space/time too much.This is a valid concern, and I've been there.The old burning the candles at both ends and the middle.

originally posted by: Caver78
It's difficult to determine with him which it is.
Genuine logical fear, or more of an instant recoiling because 2109 dug around in his head for material and shocked him with it, passing it off as "knowing the future/past".

I have my doubts that 2109 knows the past in any accurate sense.I don't think they are from 2109, though I could be wrong about that.They mentioned echos bouncing through the mountains in a specific fashion to be able to communicate through time.This gave me the impression that this was no easy feat, by any means.At face value, time is non linear for wherever they are from.

originally posted by: Caver78
Plus you're taking roughly 32 years ago. We aren't as naive as we were and after BEK's, Mothman,UFO's, Grey Aliens, and all the information we've now gotten under our belt whatever 2109 showed him in those envelopes would probably be tame in comparison.

This is where I'm a little stuck. I truly can't tell if this is worthy of the response I'm seeing out of him or not.

I think that 2109 needed something from the past, and this is what may have initiated their contact.In my last post, I outlined my slant on the way individuals perceive time.I think we would be selling ourselves short if we weren't open to the possibility that any of the players from the past could have a greater or equal understanding to 2109's.

They did mention experiments with time have been ongoing.We have heard of accounts of this in literature, and people still do, but not in the way most people imagine.

originally posted by: Caver78
If he is correct than I fear opening up the 2109 can of worms might not be a great idea, if it just spooked him then I have to ask how would this be different from any other channeled entity? Most of which seem to just be playing around with humans for the attention.

Catch my drift?

I think I do.I don't know what good it would do, though ATS has surprised before.My reluctance to go down that route is rooted in the dsytopian future I imagine them in.I don't believe in conspiracy theories all that much, but feel that it's important my voice is heard.A part of me laments the fears that are brought up in our community, but if I just stand by and watch, I'm not helping the situation...

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

Right now, I sort of see group 2109 as technicians. Like they're watching all of time throughout the dimensions, and when ever there is a problem (Coincidence) they come in and fix it up. It seems their main point of interest was not Ken, Debbie and Peter, but Tomas. or, the "two Tomas's" (What ever the hell that means...?)

2109 state;Our own communication with you has little importance therefor we shall be around for the next two dayes only to ansewer any more of your questions then shall awaite TH’s return
and;
. What is a greater problem than placing an unbalanced card on a card tower and watch it collapse with devastating consequences, even though you may save the ace you will have lost the pack, what use is a single card for the game?

Their explanation of consciousness travelling back in time comes to mind after I read ^that. You know, keeping both dimensions equal, like pebbles on a scale. Maybe in one of their experiments or whatever, Tomas's consciousness duplicated itself in the same dimension and tipped the scales out of balance. Then 2109 come and rectify the problem.

However, the problem with that whole "Dimension Technicians" theory is they refer to this event, numerous times, as an "Experiment".

I agree with you that the person called "One" seems to have a deeper understanding. Perhaps he initiated the experiment and handed Tomas the computer, then 2109 got involved later and tried to figure out what the hell was going on. Then backed off once "One" explained himself to them.

a reply to: Caver78

I don't think he's spooked or scared. When he first started his communications with 2109 he gave them his word that he wouldn't tell anyone the messages in the envelopes they exchanged. Most likely, Gary knows as much as Ken and us. He just won't speak because he honors his promise;2109 would have known this.

a reply to: Cauliflower

I don't really understand what you're asking there? Why do you speak so cryptically?

If your asking why I posted that link, it's because there were TWO printings of TVP. one in english, 89 which no one can really get ahold of. And the other in 1993 which has dozen copies selling on amazon for 50-200$. So i figured if someone really wants to read TVP just buy the German copy, its not a hard language to learn.
And the artwork on the German copy has no significance, i don't think Ernst Meckelburg thinks that's exactly what Tomas's Leems Boyste looked like.