The Vertical Plane by Ken Webster - Is this proof of Time manipulation and travel or just a story?

a reply to: sputniksteve

fun read thanks

a reply to: interupt42

My pleasure.

www.youtube.com...

I was looking through the Mysterious Universe podcast for a couple specific ones when I ran across an intriguing sounding book title. I looked at it and saw an episode of a different show on youtube and decided to just listen while I laid down for bed. Granted this guys story could easily be fabricated, and through coincidence he could have even read TVP and based it off of that, but it resonates with the story. A lot

At the very least, even if he is fabricating some of it, at least part of it is definitely not fabricated. In my humble personal experience. Literally.

Goose, please make my day and tell me a story about what happened to you in bed one night.

Thanks to everyone for your welcomes.
Cheers sputniksteve for that other communique.

I agree with others that the misspellings are probably due to the use of a text-to-speech or thought-to-speech translation system. But that's just conjecture. The spelling isn't so important really, it's still very readable and the message is clear.

I remember the reason why I thought the Clwyd Technics thing was worth following up. The way the BBC Micro worked was that many programs required the installation of a specific chip. There was an Edword 2.0 chip. I'm not suggesting that this is all the result of some incredibly early modem-tomfoolery or automated trickery, but it seems important to find out everything about that program, the company that made it and especially the chip.

Just to at least get it out of the way, surely?

I mean, if they brought a means-of-communication to Lukas / Tomas in the past then it makes sense that they may have had to modify equipment in 1985?

What d'y'all think?

I had two bookmarked links to the segments that covered the Dodleston messages in a paranormal show on BBC. The pages have disappeared some time in the last two months. Noone can find copies of the show (Out of This World) anyway. I guess BBC has copies but apparently it was pretty frivolous in its approach.

Cauliflower, I hope your odd message that referenced chess and swim trunks wasn't pointing to this page that mentions Dodleston and 'Computer Chess'. That would be chilling:
eclectariumshuker.blogspot.com.au...

a reply to: TrueGoose

Here's a link to a page in which both Debbie and John (from the book) posted:

www.unexplained-mysteries.com...

I'm confused by the passage that is quoted by 'Dancin' Hamster' at the top of the page. It's by Ken Webster but it's not from the book. Does anyone know the source?

a reply to: TrueGoose

That passage looks familiar. It may be on jacket or foreword let me check in an hour.

a reply to: TrueGoose

I am about half with you on the spelling mistakes from 2109 being just mistakes. A lot of them are made over and over again though, and certain words are never spelled correctly but always the same way incorrectly. Some could be mistakes from publisher according to Ken, as well. However like Debbie mentioned in one post I lean more towards it being a version of "twitter" speak. Realistically a lot of the young people who now use "u","4 u" "tho" on a very regular basis are just not paying as much attention to any spelling they do because it doesn't matter as much to them and they have spell check.

Our languages always change a little over time, and I think it is as likely that people who grow up like the ones I mentioned above may eventually want to start using full words as adults but may choose to spell things more phonetically since they never really studied the spelling like we did before computers. We even see this today with some modern words that have odd spellings whos adaption or common misspelling is accepted to be the modern spelling and use.

At this point I think they are both equally valid, and I change my mind I don't lean one way or the other. I just don't know.

As to the computers, I agree it cannot hurt to learn everything possible about them and their manufacturers. While it and the "light box" are certainly important aspects they aren't the only way to communicate, so i am not entirely sure they will ever be a smoking gun.

Things are changing aren't they guys? These types of weird events and phenomena have always happened, we just didn't all have the internet to talk to each other and a less judgmental society so people are as afraid to tell the stories. You can go on reddit and read stories of weird glitches till your eyes bleed and not cover all of them.

Cauliflower, you sly little devil. Have you been giving hints and clues in your cryptic messages the whole time and I just didn't realize it? That chess story was creepy Goose. Sure makes you think.

Did anyone listen to that link I posted last night? I'm not sure I buy all of it, but damn if some of it isn't compelling. I had some interesting experiences myself last night while doing my breathing thing and listening to it.

When I get home from boys swim lesson I'm going to tell a couple stories.

Ok guys I am gearing up to go to work today (this story) and I just had a thought that I wanted to share, which I will come back and explain.

As babies we almost exclusively all sleep on our backs. Anyone that has a child knows this, as it is pretty much the only safe way to have them lay since they can't roll themselves over and can suffocate on their bellies.

So we are all trained from the very first time we go to sleep outside the womb to sleep on our backs, and I would imagine we are experts at breathing properly. I am not capable of sleeping on my back now at 37 but I did sleep on my back until I was around my teens.

Maybe someone will see where I am going with this. Brb gotta super charge my brain quick.

Exciting day folks. I hope you all feel like a million dollars and have the rest of your lives in your palm as well. Every day I wake up is the best day to be alive in the history of days.

It's 2017 and we are all adults now talking on the internet about time travel!! Lets celebrate the absolute mind F that reality is!

I want to discuss a few things just to see if this jogs anyones memory or if they can relate.

When I was young, up until sometime in my early teens I used to have strange reoccurring experiences or "dreams" when I laid down for bed. One of them in particular would start with a noise that sounded like a light "whooshing" or the sound of walking on thick carpet barefoot and be assisted by a feeling or physical sensation that is very hard to explain, and I really can't even try. Along with that sensation I would feel like my perspective was really really small, and other objects and people were really really big. But in a incomprehensible way. Sometimes the sensation and perspective would be followed by a sort of vision of looking out ahead of me and seeing an old person on a bike riding perpendicular to my position. The person on the bike and the bike itself would be moving very slowly and robotically while staring at me, and their head would turn in order to keep looking at me while everything else around was happening equally really really fast. . It really creeped me out.

Eventually I stopped sleeping on my back and spent the next 25 or so years sleeping on my side. I never remembered making a conscious decision to do that, but I do remember that I didn't like those experiences I would have because I didn't understand them and I didn't want them to happen anymore.

Until about a year ago when I was laying down in bed one night next to my son with the dog in between us leaning against my leg. For some reason that evening I was laying on my back, breathing deeply through my diaphragm and completely relaxed listening to a podcast. I was using plant that in edible form that is legal in some states. I was very comfortable. In any case I was just chilling when I started hearing a noise that I was familiar with, and a feeling of nostalgia that I had felt all of this before, followed by a feeling that the bottom half of my body was floating toward the ceiling while my head felt like it was stuck to the pillow. The next thing I know, without any kind of change or indication that something had happened I was in a non dark room that I didn't recognize that was very nice looking, laying in the same position on a bed with the dog and boy next to me and I had my eyes open. I was fully aware of what was going on and didn't have any ideas that anything was out of the ordinary. All of a sudden my body started violently floating back and forth between the bed and ceiling of this room in quick succession around 4 or 5 times. I freaked out and started yelling "OK Grandmas I get it! You are scaring me please stop!".

I sat up right like I was shot out of a cannon. My heart was beating 1000 miles an hour, and in the brief instant between leaving that place and returning to my place I had an understanding that the dog was very concerned about what just happened, as she was touching me and it freaked her out. Adrenaline had flooded my system completely, I was shaking and frantic. I had never experienced anything like this that I could ever remember. I both felt like a dream and realer than real.

I believe I may have mentioned this at one point in this thread, but I am certain I have mentioned it before on ATS. Immediately after the event while it was still fresh in my mind I wrote the entire experience down as much as I could vocalize. Almost every night since then I have been practicing this, often with spectacular results. Nothing like that first night in intensity, and nothing like what the gentlemen in my last youtube link claims to be able to achieve. The experiences I have had and insight into different things I have gained in them though has far surpassed anything I may have gotten out of that first experience.

The reason I believe I blamed my grandmothers in that experience has some roots in logic, but I can't be certain they were responsible for that event or even participating. In any case though before my paternal Grandmother died a few years ago her and I became very close. We both acknowledge that she was not long for this world, and neither of us were afraid to discuss that fact. She was quite a religious woman and always had been, I was a literal and metaphorical heathen that had been agnostic borderline athiest my whole life, although I always wanted to believe and have a reason to believe. One afternoon at her kitchen table I told her that I struggled with any kind of faith in God and asked her of a favor. I asked her to show me a Green Feather if she went to heaven after she died so that I could know she was where we had agreed we assumed she would be and maybe I could get some solace out of it.

My beautiful, kind, and loving grandmother passed away a couple years later, and unfortunately I was not able to arrive in town before she passed. However my aunt pulled me to the side and told me that grandma asked her to give me a message that she still remembered her promise and that she would do her best. Some of my family have pretty sick sense of humor and all knew about this promise because I was never shy about it and neither was she. My cousin sneaked out to my car at one point that evening and put some green feathers from a prop boa in my cup holder. I nearly had a heart attach upon finding them and rushed into the house to drag my poor 94 year old grandpa into his bedroom to tell him the good news. He was confused and had no idea what I was talking about, when my cousin told me what she did.

I didn't think a whole lot about it after that, and just went back to my normal life. As time went on I started to notice feathers of every color except green everywhere I went. Blue, Red, White, Black, Grey, Purple. I would walk the dog, and they would line the side walks and yards on my route. I would go to a bank and there would be one sitting on a counter, etc. Logic and common sense would dictate that I was just seeing something I never did before because I am now paying attention. My gut tells me something else though. It tells me that Grandma has been doing her best to tell me something. My gut tells me she is explaining that she is there, she just isn't where or what we had agreed upon to warrant a green feather.

All of this relates back to my post earlier. From birth most if not all of us are taught to sleep on our backs and probably carry on doing it through out our childhood. Many of us probably had weird experiences during that time, bad dreams we didn't understand, scary visions or "hallucinations", etc. When we are children we have no context for those events, they scare us and we probably want them to stop. We are dealing with all the normal hardships of learning to be a human in the world, fitting in at school, making friends. We don't want to have freaky night time experiences, we want to fit in and be normal like we assume everyone else is.

Continued...

The truth is none of us are normal, or all of us are normal though. We all grow up not knowing what we are doing or where we are going, assuming that everyone else does. We all walk around pretending the things that happen to us don't happen to us because we don't want to deal with the criticism and ridicule it brings, or any myriad of reasons. I think though that we all have these weird stories whether we want to admit it or not. We all know that this isn't quite right and that something is missing or extra but we can't quite put our finger on it. It is much easier to just pretend those things aren't happening so we can get on with work and paying bills.

I know for a fact things are possible in the state I have described. I have had experiences from that state that are mind blowing and impossible to put into words or describe. I don't think I am special in this ability what so ever. In fact I have talked to many people online that have similar experiences. It was someone online that explained to me what was happening. The way I understand it is that it is some kind of or draws from the practice of Kundalini meditation. In any case I believe everyone is capable of this, if not most. I also can't believe it is somehow unrelated to our story and Debbie visiting Thomas in his home, the CIA paper linked, or the explanation I posted yesterday by the unknown entity.

These are threads we can pull right now, all of us. Never know what might unravel.

P.S. I love you guys and I hope you have a fantastic day.

Good afternoon all. After a great nights sleep and one of the funnest and most exciting dreams I have ever had I am going back to work. I didn't get much done yesterday after my big post, it kind of drained me and I was caught up in all of the political drama. Today I buckle down.

Still early in my second read through while making notes. If I have anything to add to the story I most certainly will. I am still looking forward to what you guys have to say about the "Heeeeeere we go" post describing how time travel happens.

In six days I am going to be offline for a week or so and I plan to have something very substantial released prior to that. Lots of things in the works right now.

Today is my best day ever. I hope it is yours too.

Love you guys be safe.

I ran into an interesting passage that I think can shed a lot of light and may help you out Cauliflower.

In one message Ken is asking Lukas what he does for fun (merry making), how he manages to work the "light box" and a few benign questions about routes he takes to market.

Lukas gives an interesting reply. The gist of his reply is "Why are you asking me these questions? The writing machine is a wonderful thing although unnatural. I don't know what it is but I have seen you make lights on the box and I am cunning". I take this to me he watched Ken work on the BBC micro computer and then copied him to some degree in order to do copy some functions.

Lukas later goes on to tell Ken that to make merry he gets drunk, and tells Ken that their merry making (playing music) is quite loud and he isn't fond, except for the flute that Deb plays that he loves.

So Lukas seems to be able to be able to exist in the 1986 house to some degree in order to see all of these things. I am guessing it is through him sleeping and manifesting there as Deb does but I can't be sure. It would seem though that he should have been spotted, because he can see Deb when she manifests in 1546, they have even communicated. Could Lukas be the cause of the PG activity instead of 2109 like they claimed? Could that have just been a lie from them?

It seems that it could be this practice is common and not worth mentioning from Lukas perspective, because it is taken for granted. Or it could be he tried to explain it but 2109 intercepted and changed or removed the message. In any case it sheds some light on how Lukas is operating and what he has access to.

Not really worthy of a new post, but I just read a page where Ken is finally reading about PG's and runs across the case of Mathew Manning which was mentioned earlier in this thread, by Baddogma I believe. At this point he is almost convinced this whole thing is a hoax and starts to have concerns that Deb is the culprit. In any case he seems to think Manning is full of it at this point. Self deception is strong lol. Not that I am saying Manning was telling the truth, but here Ken is having a conversation with a guy in 1546 while PG are happening all around them and he thinks this other guy is BS.

In one particular passage after a week or more of no communication Ken brings home the computer again and has an interesting conversation that may be insightful.

Lukas is upset and asks if he has not been a gracious enough host. He exclaims that even though he doesn't know who Ken and Deb are or where they are from he has allowed them in his house anyway. Lukas then complains that "I am having some trouble with your hidden device that sometimes doesn't record my words".

At this point Ken does NOT know that Lukas has his own device, he doesn't receive a full explanation on how Lukas received the Light Box until almost the end of the book, although he does learn he has one long before that when Lukas is going to be put to death. He notes that his Micro Computer is most certainly not hidden, as it takes up his entire Kitchen table almost. He starts to wonder if maybe Lukas doesn't have his own device somewhere in his house as well.

While "your" may just be due to translation, I find it interesting that Lukas may believe that his Light Box is from Ken, or a group Ken belongs to. We can probably also assume Lukas is feeling much like Ken that this may all be a hoax, but then again maybe not. It does make me wonder though how similar his Light Box may be to Kens, he obviously must recognize they are the same thing or at least have the same function. We do know Lukas's can dictate his speech but is that the only difference? I really wish we knew if he had something we would consider modern or if it was just a modified version of the BBC. I always pictured something like an older Apple that was a combined tower and monitor, but maybe it is just a BBC MC, it certainly had a screen with lights on it and was technically a box.

If I may go way out on a limb, it makes me wonder of the possibility that the entity who delivered Lukas device was Ken, or looked like Ken. It is conceivable that unbeknownst to Ken even today in 2017, he will travel through some portal and deliver the device himself and 2109 manipulated any messages that may have enforced that narrative. I understand this supposition has no ground to stand on really, just throwing it out there.

Ok, big realization here. I don't know how in the hell we all managed to miss this.

Ken's computer obviously needs electricity to work. Thomas computer couldn't possibly have an outlet to plug into. We would then have to assume that it is a computer that is so much more advanced than our current day modern that it has a 2 year battery life; Or it draws power from a source that we can't understand. Point is it almost has to be something that we would probably recognize as a computer, but it could be vastly different. I don't think we even know how big it is.

I can think of other scenarios but they don't seem very rational to me. What do you guys think? Assuming of course that the story is real and there must be a conclusion that can be reached.

Hi Steve an everyone!
Special welcome to TrueGoose, I enjoyed your posts!

Understandably it took me quite a bit of time to read thru the thread and all the side-links to additional information. One thing also overlooked and I'd be remiss in not bringing it up, is WHY the "yee olde english"?

Had Lucas's device been transmitting, whether in a Siri type fashion or another, spell-check AND an auto correct into the programming language would have been automatic? So the messages would have been received in 1985 english and not so much the version from the 1500's?

Or it would have been rent with so many oddities as to be virtually painful to read.

Obviously both devices were connected in a weird way, but this wouldn't over ride each devices OS, if you're catching my drift?

Having used my laptop and google translate to dig thru other than english material I can assure you some of the reading is shockingly painful to read. I'd love some more techie's to weigh in on Ken's device and it's capabilities. I think it would clear up some things.

Now please don't infer by this observation that I think this is a hoax. I don't, but the messages received equally had to have left a "footprint" same as this post leaves one for ATS admins to reference, same as a photo has imbedded info from it's original device.

We can't reach back to contact the messages authors, so that leaves us with the device forensics to gain clues. Obviously not from the device used, but as mentioned previously, the processors manual at least? I'm thinking that the tech company being so close to Ken & Deb's place is suspicious to say the least and it's not out of blue to think back in the day transmissions "bled over" to be picked up by Ken's device. I would think that THAT is who the 2109 are, just stumbling onto the original material from Ken & Lucas/tomas and having a bit of "sport". Probably not realizing the import of the original material.

I think by focusing on the 2109 stuff it detracts from the experience and muddies the water.

a reply to: sputniksteve

Yeah Daisy chaining, which would make all parallel realities invaild. Its impossible one distant future was able to send back in time something so advance, it would actually mess up reality as if some half butterfly half quarter exists.

That's ripping more than 200 years of tech and advancements through space and giving it back in time as a FedEx package straight to the guys room.


Or it means time is without substance and therefore we future advanced humans found a way to do it.

a reply to: sputniksteve

Well, I think you've hit on a very important and sadly, not likely 'discoverable' point with regard to power source..

...although, considering how far technology is currently - what with smart phones, voice recognition software, and all - I would say that it's possible that Thomas' device was much more 'tech advanced' than Ken's computer...

...which, actually makes sense when you consider that whoever would have brought Thomas' device was from 'somewhere' much more advanced than we currently are.

--also, just want to apologize for not contributing much - I'm 54 and not in the best health, so dealing with varying degrees of 'brain fog' most of the time -

- but, I want you to know that I really appreciate all the hard work, and your enthusiasm and dedication to this thread!!!

Oh and one other thing -
- regarding your thoughts on 'sleeping children' and "weird experiences":

Being almost 15 yrs older than you, I can attest that - putting babies to sleep on their backs is actually a relatively 'new' thing...

...Prior to the late 80's/early 90's, it was customary to put babies on their tummies to sleep, so there wouldn't be any danger of them choking if they spit up..
..it was only when SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) became a big 'thing' that doctors started advising people to put babies on their backs to sleep.

I don't want you to think I'm just playing 'know-it-all' in the above...I wanted to point it out for a reason:

It is a good example of how quickly something can change from being 'the new way' to being an assumption of 'the way it's always been' -

- and it's only because I appreciate the effort you put into your thinking, that I wanted to show you an example of how easy it is to base a theory on a bit of 'assumed' information..

I hope I've written that in a way that makes sense and isn't offensive..

originally posted by: Caver78
Hi Steve an everyone!
Special welcome to TrueGoose, I enjoyed your posts!

Understandably it took me quite a bit of time to read thru the thread and all the side-links to additional information. One thing also overlooked and I'd be remiss in not bringing it up, is WHY the "yee olde english"?

Had Lucas's device been transmitting, whether in a Siri type fashion or another, spell-check AND an auto correct into the programming language would have been automatic? So the messages would have been received in 1985 english and not so much the version from the 1500's?

Or it would have been rent with so many oddities as to be virtually painful to read.

Obviously both devices were connected in a weird way, but this wouldn't over ride each devices OS, if you're catching my drift?

Having used my laptop and google translate to dig thru other than english material I can assure you some of the reading is shockingly painful to read. I'd love some more techie's to weigh in on Ken's device and it's capabilities. I think it would clear up some things.

Now please don't infer by this observation that I think this is a hoax. I don't, but the messages received equally had to have left a "footprint" same as this post leaves one for ATS admins to reference, same as a photo has imbedded info from it's original device.

We can't reach back to contact the messages authors, so that leaves us with the device forensics to gain clues. Obviously not from the device used, but as mentioned previously, the processors manual at least? I'm thinking that the tech company being so close to Ken & Deb's place is suspicious to say the least and it's not out of blue to think back in the day transmissions "bled over" to be picked up by Ken's device. I would think that THAT is who the 2109 are, just stumbling onto the original material from Ken & Lucas/tomas and having a bit of "sport". Probably not realizing the import of the original material.

I think by focusing on the 2109 stuff it detracts from the experience and muddies the water.

Hey welcome to the conversation! You have brought up some great points, and please don't worry you haven't offended. In fact it is quite the opposite, I know there are things that I haven't thought of and don't see and I greatly appreciate you bringing them up.

As to the first question, I will give my opinion and retort with what I just realized is an equally important question.

If Thomas was dictating to the "light box" and it was instantly translating into modern English he may not be able to proof read his work or understand what is being typed. Which leads to the obvious question, how is it that he is able to read modern English and make sense of it? If these "computers" are capable of doing these things why couldn't they translate internally and only present the modern version? Would Ken and Deb every have believed Thomas was actually in 1546 if he was speaking modern English instead of his version? Would Thomas have believed Ken and Deb were from 1986 if they were communicating in his version of English instead of a Modern version?

Maybe it was beyond the capabilities of the system to do this, which seems hard to swallow doesn't it considering? Or maybe it had to be this way in order to establish bone fides and convince each other of what was happening? Fantastic question either way Caver.

As to the possibility that they are the Hoax and Thomas is real. It seems a little too convenient for me honestly. The likely hood that they really were communicating with Thomas 500 years past as well as a modern person happening to stumble upon the conversation and playing pranks seems very unlikely. It seems to me an all or nothing is easier to understand. That is just my personal view.

I think we should also consider though that 2109 was able to discuss topics that in 1986 were not yet known to the general public, and possibly to anyone. If in fact 2109 was the only "hoax" aspect, they were God tier trolls in their ability to investigate and understand while explaining extremely difficult concepts. As well we have to take into account their secret communications with Gary Rowe and SPR, which a clever troll at the computer manufacturer most certainly would not have been able to pull off.

Concerning my own fascination and narrow focus on 2109, frankly the things Thomas talks about are just not exciting. I mean it is cool to hear where he went fishing, how he made his shoes, and what his farm was like but it doesn't do all that much for me. I am specifically interested in the story because of the time travel aspect, and the only place we can possibly get any insight or information on that and these esoteric topics is from the dialogue from 2109. That is not to say that there isn't important information in Thomas's messages though. In fact it may hold clues to the specifics of the location of his hidden book. He was very fond of his University, different writers and characters of the time, etc. Those could be very good locations to look for his book.

I hope you don't see any of this as dismissing your concerns or observations, I truly am not, I am only trying to give my opinion and perspective. I am very happy to have a new set of eyes here though, and am very impressed with your ability to jump right into the meat and potatoes of the matter! Bravo man. Excellent observations and questions dude. I really hope you dig and stay part of the mystery.

This truly is not a 1 man job. I cannot do this alone guys, I am desperately asking for your help here. I don't care about credit or recognition, I simply want to quench this thirst I never knew I had. My dream and goal is to get as many people as possible to hear about this story and start thinking and looking. This damn book of Lukas' is just sitting there waiting to be found and I know for a fact I am not going to be the one to pick it up out of it's hole and present it to the world. I am just trying to be a motivator and antagonist. Someone has seen this book and knows where it is, they just don't know that we are all looking for it.

Imagine if ATS was the site to break the news! You see me Amigos!? I sent you an email.

Anyone live near Brasenose College Oxford? I know we have a few UK folks watching. That was Thomas school. I will call them first thing in the morning UK time and see if I can speak to someone in the Library or History department. If anyone is close they could possibly go there with the book description and make better head way thank I can.

I don't know why I never thought of this until right now. You guys are geniuses.

a reply to: lostgirl

I agree with you that it is most likely Thomas computer is way more advanced than what we have and therefor the power source could be many things. It could pull electricity from the "ether" or some convoluted thing, some kind of super advanced Solar battery, etc. For that matter it could just be super small and efficient and simply has a battery that is better than ours that can easily last 2 years.

As to the babies on back, no worries you won't hurt my feelings. Maybe your correction and point is more important and profound than we realize on the surface if you know what I mean. In any case this is exactly why I share these off the wall and off topic ideas here instead of keeping them to myself. I don't expect they are all correct, I do want people to question and correct me if I am wrong. I am not looking to "look smart" as much as I am trying to actually learn. So thank you much.

I am all about not saying anything unless you have something to say. Please don't feel any need to placate me by replying nonsense, you are doing precisely what you should be doing. I am just happy I still have you guys with me and haven't scared anyone away. Keep watching and correcting any opportunity you have please.