Let's Talk About Collusion/Conspiracy as it Applies to Trump Jr.

There are probably better places for this thread than the mud pit but oh well.

There seems to be some confusion out there about what collusion is, whether Trump Jr colluded, whether it's illegal, whether it's unethical, and what have you. I'm going to try to cover that and Conspiracy (which is illegal) as best I can.

Illegal Collusion:
Yes, it exists! For this type of collusion to occur, two parties must come to an agreement which defrauds or deprives a third party of their rights (also known as an evil purpose). This type of collusion typically occurs between parties who have seemingly conflicting interests (e.g. competing businesses, attorneys, divorcees, etc).

More broadly, non-criminal collusion is an agreement between two or more parties for a harmful purpose. If I know you want the snickers bar out of the vending machine and get together with my coworkers to buy all of them so you can't have one, that's non-criminal collusion. You don't have a right to the snickers bar.

So what did Trump Jr. do?
The facts: He received an email from a friend claiming to have access to damaging information on Hillary. This friend aksed to set up a meeting between Jr. and the Russian lawyer who was supposed to spill the beans. Jr. said sure, sounds like a good time and proceeded to meet with this Russian lawyer.

This does not equal collusion, this doesn't even meet the standard of non-criminal collusion. Agreeing to have a meeting is not an agreement between two or more parties for a harmful purpose. Further, criminal collusion doesn't exist in a political campaign as there isn't a third party to deprive of their rights or to defraud.

The reason everyone is saying collusion isn't illegal in the trump-russia case is because they were not colluding to deprive anyone of their rights nor were they trying to defraud anyone. They're correct on that front, but they're letting things progress a step past where they should be progressing. Not only was collusion not illegal, there is still no evidence of collusion.

Now, what the real narrative out there is, the real contention of the Russian narrative, is that there was a conspiracy between Trump (or his campaign) and Russia, against Hillary. They don't want to use that term because it LITERALLY turns the whole thing into a conspiracy theory. They would be endlessly mocked about their conspiracy theory nonsense. But let's look at it from a legal perspective since there can certainly be a criminal conspiracy in the political realm.

Here's what is needed to prove conspiracy:
1) You need a time frame, during which an agreement was made to commit a crime.
2) The guilty party must have been aware of the goal of the conspiracy AND intended to help accomplish it.
3) The guilty party must have committed at least one overt act for the purpose of carrying out the conspiracy.
*an overt act is an act that can be clearly proved through evidence and criminal intent can be inferred.

As even the most anti-trump lawyers have ceded, there's no evidence for this with the Trump Jr. meeting. That's why they've moved on to campaign finance laws.

If you think I didn't address something fully or missed something, let me know and I'll try to fix it.

I'm sure that the title will rope in some lefty's thinking they're going to get told collusion isn't illegal and therefore they'll run down and comment before reading the OP, it will be some fun entertainment.

a reply to: Dfairlite

Not only was nothing illegal done...nothing even remotely unethical was done.

However, let us make a big deal out of it because Trump.

a reply to: Dfairlite


I think "collusion" is an easier concept to grock and/or stomach. Wrapping one's head around the idea of "collusion" is not as "crazy" as aligning oneself with "conspiracy"!

The situation hasn't changed, but, the public's perception has. It's easier now, folks are more comfortable "grocking" the idea of a "conspiracy" as the issue steams full speed ahead.

a reply to: Metallicus

Collusion didn't even happen.

Ethically you can make a case that in an election, going to foreign sources for help isn't ethical.
But you can also make the case that it would be unethical to not bring to light crimes committed by the other candidate, which was what was told to Trump Jr. would be disclosed in the meeting.

a reply to: windword

Full Steam ahead... a good description of the smoke some seem to believe they see...

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: Dfairlite

Not only was nothing illegal done...nothing even remotely unethical was done.

However, let us make a big deal out of it because Trump.

Why has Trump campaign denied and lied about meeting with Russians If its not illegal nor unethical ?

a reply to: Dfairlite

Pretty sure the MSM definition of collusion and the ACTUAL definition of collusion have been confused.

As of yet, the ACTUAL definition of collusion has not been compromised. The MSM definition has been raped thoroughly.

originally posted by: ErrorErrorError

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: Dfairlite

Not only was nothing illegal done...nothing even remotely unethical was done.

However, let us make a big deal out of it because Trump.

Why has Trump campaign denied and lied about meeting with Russians If its not illegal nor unethical ?

They haven't...anytime anything has come up they have provided the full context of what occurred.

Got anything to show they've lied or denied?

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: ErrorErrorError

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: Dfairlite

Not only was nothing illegal done...nothing even remotely unethical was done.

However, let us make a big deal out of it because Trump.

Why has Trump campaign denied and lied about meeting with Russians If its not illegal nor unethical ?

They haven't...anytime anything has come up they have provided the full context of what occurred.

Got anything to show they've lied or denied?

Lol

The Russia-Trump collusion story is a total hoax, when will this taxpayer funded charade end?” (Trump tweet, 5/8/2017)

“There is no collusion between me and my campaign and the Russians.” (Trump interview with Lester Holt, 5/11/2017)

“When James Clapper himself, and virtually everyone else with knowledge of the witch hunt, says there is no collusion, when does it end?” (Trump tweet, 5/12/2017)

“Again, the story that there was collusion between the Russians & Trump campaign was fabricated by Dems as an excuse for losing the election.” (Trump tweet, 5/12/2017)

“The entire thing has been a witch hunt. And there is no collusion between certainly myself and my campaign, but I can always speak for myself — and the Russians, zero.” (Trump news conference, 5/18/2017)

“No collusion, no obstruction. [James Comey's] a leaker.” (Trump news conference, 6/9/2017)

“They made up a phony collusion with the Russians story, found zero proof, so now they go for obstruction of justice on the phony story. Nice.” (Trump tweet, 6/15/2017)

After 7 months of investigations & committee hearings about my “collusion with the Russians,” nobody has been able to show any proof. Sad! (Trump tweet, 6/16/2017)

“Look, there has been no obstruction. There has been no collusion. There has been leaking by Comey. But there's been no collusion, no obstruction and virtually everybody agrees to that.” (Trump interview with Fox and Friends, 6/23/2017)

There is no collusion & no obstruction. I should be given apology! (Trump tweet, 6/26/2017)

originally posted by: ErrorErrorError

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: ErrorErrorError

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: Dfairlite

Not only was nothing illegal done...nothing even remotely unethical was done.

However, let us make a big deal out of it because Trump.

Why has Trump campaign denied and lied about meeting with Russians If its not illegal nor unethical ?

They haven't...anytime anything has come up they have provided the full context of what occurred.

Got anything to show they've lied or denied?

Lol

The Russia-Trump collusion story is a total hoax, when will this taxpayer funded charade end?” (Trump tweet, 5/8/2017)

“There is no collusion between me and my campaign and the Russians.” (Trump interview with Lester Holt, 5/11/2017)

“When James Clapper himself, and virtually everyone else with knowledge of the witch hunt, says there is no collusion, when does it end?” (Trump tweet, 5/12/2017)

“Again, the story that there was collusion between the Russians & Trump campaign was fabricated by Dems as an excuse for losing the election.” (Trump tweet, 5/12/2017)

“The entire thing has been a witch hunt. And there is no collusion between certainly myself and my campaign, but I can always speak for myself — and the Russians, zero.” (Trump news conference, 5/18/2017)

“No collusion, no obstruction. [James Comey's] a leaker.” (Trump news conference, 6/9/2017)

“They made up a phony collusion with the Russians story, found zero proof, so now they go for obstruction of justice on the phony story. Nice.” (Trump tweet, 6/15/2017)

After 7 months of investigations & committee hearings about my “collusion with the Russians,” nobody has been able to show any proof. Sad! (Trump tweet, 6/16/2017)

“Look, there has been no obstruction. There has been no collusion. There has been leaking by Comey. But there's been no collusion, no obstruction and virtually everybody agrees to that.” (Trump interview with Fox and Friends, 6/23/2017)

There is no collusion & no obstruction. I should be given apology! (Trump tweet, 6/26/2017)

So you're posting tweets from Trump saying there is no collusion to prove there is collusion?

Let me know when some collusion happens. At this point it's all delusion.

Ask Hillary and Bill Clinton what "illegal" and "unethical" collusion is. They pioneered and perfected it, for many nefarious purposes.

originally posted by: carewemust
Ask Hillary and Bill Clinton what "illegal" and "unethical" collusion is. They pioneered and perfected it, for many nefarious purposes.

Hey , leave Bill outta this. Obama and Clinton
Now

Trump, Conway, Pence, and Sessions deny CONTACT, not collusion, with Russia.

What a load of horse sh*t

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: carewemust
Ask Hillary and Bill Clinton what "illegal" and "unethical" collusion is. They pioneered and perfected it, for many nefarious purposes.

Hey , leave Bill outta this. Obama and Clinton
Now

Right.. Comey cleared them. I forgot!

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: ErrorErrorError

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: Dfairlite

Not only was nothing illegal done...nothing even remotely unethical was done.

However, let us make a big deal out of it because Trump.

Why has Trump campaign denied and lied about meeting with Russians If its not illegal nor unethical ?

They haven't...anytime anything has come up they have provided the full context of what occurred.

Got anything to show they've lied or denied?

Sure, that's why Kushner isn't facing 5 years in prison for lying on his SF86. 'Cause he told the truth and context of every meeting he had with the Russians at the time of filling out the form.

Oh wait...

a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog


Hillary didn't get punished, because Democrats were in charge of the White House and DOJ in 2016.

The same frame of mind applies now (and for the next 7.5 years) to Republicans accused of wrong doing.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: carewemust
Ask Hillary and Bill Clinton what "illegal" and "unethical" collusion is. They pioneered and perfected it, for many nefarious purposes.

Hey , leave Bill outta this. Obama and Clinton
Now

Right.. Comey cleared them. I forgot!

No , Bill was never into it...just Hillary.
Or , was he ?

a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog

Kushner has not been charged with anything.

Maybe in your delusional fantasy world he is "facing five years in prison" but not in the real world.

a reply to: Deny Arrogance

Nor will he be. He has a temporary clearance.

originally posted by: Deny Arrogance
a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog

Kushner has not been charged with anything.

Maybe in your delusional fantasy world he is "facing five years in prison" but not in the real world.

Kushner should be charged with something. I doubt Trump had no knowledge of this. This is not the beginning of the end, it is more like the ending of the end.

it is where mainstream Rebublicans just say 'Uncle', and give up.