Russia quietly moves border hundreds of yards into occupied Georgia

a reply to: Gothmog

Eh, this isn't the first time.

a reply to: nwtrucker

I already said that NATO expanding towards Russia could instigate them expanding outwards as well.

Saying that the alliance created to counter them getting close to their borders isn't relevant doesn't make sense.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: Gothmog

Eh, this isn't the first time.

No , they invaded back in 2008(?) . The 1st People's Army of Atlanta managed to drive em back....

Folks are too easy

a reply to: CriticalStinker


Could instigate? Therefore the wishes of the Ukraine, of Poland and others therefore should be ignored? They don't have the right to choose a group who would protect them from the very nation that oppressed them?

I don't see countries lining up to join Putin and Russia. Apparently the other way around IS the case.

Please tell me you can see that? You aren't blind to that desire to maintain freedom newly won, are you?


I do NOT hate Putin. I believe he can be worked with. The U.S. and Trump offer Russia a chance of freedom from any designs dictated by TPTB. Together. IF he thinks these little moves will work on Trump as they did on Obama it is his potentially fatal mistake.

Putin needs to back off. If he doesn't, there's no out left for him or Russia.

a reply to: nwtrucker

There have actually been democratic votes for some of those countries to be re-absorbed by Russia. (parts of Georgia, parts of Ukraine, maybe others)

Those countries sometimes react by fighting their own people.

Now, we have to assume those elections could have been tampered with. That being said, are you and I familiar with those regions?

You may be right. Maybe Putin is overstepping, I'm just humoring the other side. I'm trying to view half way around the world in their prospective.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Gosh horror, horror, horror the world will end tomorrow.

a reply to: CriticalStinker


I have some knowledge of the region being of both Russian and Ukrainian decent.( I have zero love for either, by the way) The Crimean effort was at near gun-point in the 'assembly' vote-check WikiLeaks on that one.

One poster pointed out that even a Russian publication said there was a 'vote' in Crimea that was a 50-50 split but in a region that was only 30% of the overall population...which disappeared quickly. Likely a region of high Russian population.

The Ukraine? Soros is messing that one up. (Not NATO if I have that one right.) The mantra of protecting 'Russians' has come up in all three nations. That positions Putin as 'righteous' and all NATO efforts as 'imperialistic'. This ,of course, pushes the remaining ex-Warsaw Pact nations even further into the NATO/EU camp.

Where the smoke starts and ends on both sides is beyond me. But territory is being grabbed. It is by Russia. 'Justified? Not justified? Semantics. It pisses off the west, forces the U.S. to stay in NATO far longer than they should, IMO.

I see it as dumb in the long run for Russia, JMO, though.

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: intrptr

Geo strategically speaking, if Georgia falls the way of Turkey and Ukraine (to NATO) then the Russians could be cut off from access to the Black Sea.

Poor little Georgia becomes a geo political chip on the game board, whatever Russia does there is overall, a defensive response to NATOs encroachment into Eastern Europe.

Not that anyone is noticing that.

What we're thinking is eastern Europe has a say in who they align with. That's what YOUR not talking about...

Romania is full house in NATO. Bulgaria is two pair in NATO and a deuce for Russia. Turkey is definitely the big NATO Ace on the Balkans. Slovakia is NATO, they had a big convoys of NATO tanks traveling to east in February or so... ex Yugoslavia region is complicated and less important, but I ain't expecting they do something against NATO. Ukraine is split. Poland is heavy NATO. Croatia as well. Hungary is like Bulgaria. Lithia/Lithuania/Greece/Slovenia are still wild cards in my mind, but definitely no one is brave enough in the region to admit Russian affection in public. NATO will blow them in a day(metaphorically said, in reality its gonna be heavy economic pressure from the rest of EU countries).

Argent

a reply to: nwtrucker

What we're thinking is eastern Europe has a say in who they align with. That's what YOUR not talking about...

Why should autonomous countries have to 'align' with any foreign occupying power?

You make it sound like the ordinary people have a choice that NATO armor is rolling thru Eastern Europe, threatening everyone.

a reply to: Argentbenign

What you describe has a past parallel: NATO armor occupying most of central and eastern Europe, just like the Warsaw Pact.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: intrptr

Geo strategically speaking, if Georgia falls the way of Turkey and Ukraine (to NATO) then the Russians could be cut off from access to the Black Sea.

How? Adler, Tuapse, Anapa, and Kavkaz are all inside Russia's borders and are Black Sea Ports. Combine that with the fact that Crimea isn't going anywhere anytime soon and I somehow don't think Georgia's lone port on the Black Sea matters much to Putin.

"I can read a map" --George C. Scott from, Patton

The Russians could be moving the border southward to find a defensible territory. They may also try to place the border closer to the main east-west highway, making it easier to cut this highway in case of war, and paralyze the entire South Caucasus. By moving the border southward, their artillery may also be able to hit strategic pipelines and railways.


Related

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Russia's shenanigans with their neighbors are only hurting Russia. By doing what they are doing, they are hurting relations with the few allies they have left, like Belarus. They are so skeptical of Russia and her intentions that military cooperation between the 2 has been on the decline.

The more Russia keeps trying to revive the USSR the more nations they will push towards the west / EU / NATO.

Putin is just too stupid to understand that his actions are causing the very actions he claims threaten russia.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Whoops, got that quote wrong. "I can read a map, George", correctly attributed to Omar Bradley, played by Karl Malden in response to deception on the part of General Patton.

originally posted by: Argentbenign

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: intrptr

Geo strategically speaking, if Georgia falls the way of Turkey and Ukraine (to NATO) then the Russians could be cut off from access to the Black Sea.

Poor little Georgia becomes a geo political chip on the game board, whatever Russia does there is overall, a defensive response to NATOs encroachment into Eastern Europe.

Not that anyone is noticing that.

What we're thinking is eastern Europe has a say in who they align with. That's what YOUR not talking about...

Romania is full house in NATO. Bulgaria is two pair in NATO and a deuce for Russia. Turkey is definitely the big NATO Ace on the Balkans. Slovakia is NATO, they had a big convoys of NATO tanks traveling to east in February or so... ex Yugoslavia region is complicated and less important, but I ain't expecting they do something against NATO. Ukraine is split. Poland is heavy NATO. Croatia as well. Hungary is like Bulgaria. Lithia/Lithuania/Greece/Slovenia are still wild cards in my mind, but definitely no one is brave enough in the region to admit Russian affection in public. NATO will blow them in a day(metaphorically said, in reality its gonna be heavy economic pressure from the rest of EU countries).

Argent

Seems you make my point. Their choice. Don't see many scurrying back to Mother Russia, do we? The reason I even mentioned it is the spin-comment that NATO is somehow responsible for the Russian counter-move by even accepting those nations in the first place.

a reply to: nwtrucker
Well the deal is South Ossetia did not want any part to do with Georgia. In fact they were offered full autonomy and it was turned down. They were very thankful when the Russians came to their rescue, just like the Kurds are very thankful to Donald Trump for their support in Rojava, especially in countering Turkish aggression. Much to Erdogan's angst of course.

Rojava had autonomy within Syria, but now that NATO FOB's are popping up there left and right, it is a no brainer that they will seek a right to self determination as it will be called.

It should also be considered that the people themselves do not necessarily seek to join NATO, but their politicians are being bribed when their public industries are sold off and promised stakes in the more lucrative private sector. That is precisely what is going down in Ukraine, and many of their citizens do not at all want that. Which is part of the reason the domestic media stopped talking about Ukraine.

It was also a big complaint in places like Estonia and Latvia in the nineties and early 2000's. But politicians and business rule the land in every nation on Earth not just the West, so tax paying citizens be damned!

wtf is with these double posts today??

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
a reply to: nwtrucker
Well the deal is South Ossetia did not want any part to do with Georgia. In fact they were offered full autonomy and it was turned down. They were very thankful when the Russians came to their rescue, just like the Kurds are very thankful to Donald Trump for their support in Rojava, especially in countering Turkish aggression. Much to Erdogan's angst of course.

Rojava had autonomy within Syria, but now that NATO FOB's are popping up there left and right, it is a no brainer that they will seek a right to self determination as it will be called.

It should also be considered that the people themselves do not necessarily seek to join NATO, but their politicians are being bribed when their public industries are sold off and promised stakes in the more lucrative private sector. That is precisely what is going down in Ukraine, and many of their citizens do not at all want that. Which is part of the reason the domestic media stopped talking about Ukraine.

It was also a big complaint in places like Estonia and Latvia in the nineties and early 2000's. But politicians and business rule the land in every nation on Earth not just the West, so tax paying citizens be damned!

A much better attempt than previous posters, sir.

I will rebut anyway.

First, comparing Trump and the Kurds with any Russian enclave in Georgia is poorly thought out, IMO. The Kurds never left the original homeland and found themselves basically split amongst three nations, Turkey, Iraq and Syria. (Well done Brits, instability assured!)

The 'Russians' in Georgia-and the Ukraine, for that matter,- chose to remain in a newly autonomous nation and became 'ex-pats'. By choice. Of course they didn't want autonomy, financially not viable. Far better to accept Russian financial backing to refuse autonomy and open the door for Russian reclamation. Ditto Crimea and the Ukraine CIA-like financing of groups designed to destabilize and open the door for Russian 'protection of their citizens'.

A built-in spy/insurgency opportunity for Russia to keep it's fingers in the pie, so to speak, in all three nations. With a weakened political position under Bush and the complete lack of leadership from Obama, the opportunity was perfect for Putin's moves.

All three suffer from a small minority of Russians with exaggerated coverage. The Ukrainians, for example, have a long and intense dislike of Russia. Always have. Yet they are as crooked as the Russians. Culturally, the same area code...

The woof and warp of it is, Russia reclaiming territories lost with the break-up of the Soviet Union. That is the bottom line, here. The rest? Justifications, accusations and gray areas.

As other posters on this thread have stated, the short-term gains by Putin will cost him more in the long run than is gained. He forces, his so-called adversary, NATO to strengthen even further when it was close to complete ineffectiveness due to a lack of leadership, both from the EU and the U.S..

He cannot compete with the combined financial and economic power of the west and therefore militarily. He should be reaching out to Trump and forming a relationship stronger than a mutual dislike of ISIS. He is not. He will lose out if it continues. Just my opinion , though.

a reply to: nwtrucker
He reaches out quite often, and usually gets sanctions in return. NATO is going to look somewhat different in a decade and so will the EU. Some upcoming economic issues and competition to our entire financial system by BRICS is going to take away quite a bit of the dollar domination in some of these border states. Anytime money is affected, so too will our positions with friendly reps in those lands.

Contrary to domestic media reports, many regional and other international opinions of Putin are held in quite a high regard. Either way, I only see Russia getting bigger, but why are we not adding land to our own?? PR wants to be a state, we should let it. Doing so gives us the ability to restructure the tax code and generate some great growth potential as well. I think we should at least consider adding more states to the union.

a reply to: worldstarcountry

I think we should at least consider adding more states to the union.

Aside from Puerto Rico (who overwhelmingly supported Rubio in the primaries), what other territories were you thinking we could inherit acquire?