Three Questions for Left Wing, Russian Collusion Believing ATSers:

a reply to: ColdWisdom

He had high praise for castro as well. He's a closet communist.

Well let's see.

1. Some people believe the intelligence community has released everything they know and we should base our determination on what is currently in the public domain. This is a naive and utterly sophomoric position but apparently very popular.

2. Despite the intelligence community's repeatedly stated concerns that 'something' nefarious has been going on --- an assertion that was initially made well before the current hubbub --- it's fake news. In which case shut-down the entire intelligence community. They clearly don't know what they are doing or collectively are agents of some anti-American agenda.

3. Somehow someone --- ostensibly the DNC/Hillary/Obama --- was able to compromise the integrity of the entire intelligence community in order to foist a fabricated plot on the American people. Yea... that seems possible.

4. They are continuing an ongoing investigation and we'll know the truth --- or at least what they are able to share with the public --- at some future date.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Dfairlite

No thanks. I'm going to let the professional investigators do their thing. Whatever conclusion they come to, I will accept. Will you?

Amen. Mueller has the goods and is hiring prosecutors - not investigators - prosecutors. Trump and Co are lawyering up Big League.

What the Trump supporters fail to see is that IF it is proven that they/Trump's campaign conspired and coordinated with Russia to win the election for, say, lifting certain sanctions

(and possibly More sanctions lifted in exchange for a huge payout now sitting in an offshore account courtesy of Putin's state run massive oil company),

then "conspiring with a foreign adversary to effect US elections" starts sounding a bit ominous, with treasonous overtones.

a reply to: jtma508

So basically you know nothing. Thanks. Really did a great job ignoring the questions.

a reply to: AboveBoard

And IF obama was proved to have been born in Africa, he would have been an illegitimate president and immediately relieved of his duties.

These sorts of statements make you no better than the birthers.

a reply to: Dfairlite

I know exactly as much as you and everyone else on this thread. Which is essentially nothing. We hear the speculation. We hear the spin. But we don't have any verifiable and factual information on which to base any worthwhile opinion. But at least I'm being honest.

a reply to: jtma508

Then I guess the OP wasn't meant for you, was it?

a reply to: AboveBoard

If you know there is an investigation happening and you think you may be a potential target, innocent or not, it's always a good idea to lawyer up. No one wants to be Scooter Libby who was run in over a procedural error.

Because if you follow these things, Mueller's in an investigation in search of a crime the same way the Plame Affair was, and Mueller will be under intense pressure to claim a scalp, any scalp, no matter whether or not the actual collusion exists.

a reply to: Dfairlite

This seems like a interesting thread to dive into as it seems to be I am exactly the kind of guy you are directing your questions at, so thanks for asking them, let me address each of them in turn.

1) What specifically do you believe transpired between the trump campaign and russia that was both illegal and unprecedented?

So this is kind of a question as i see it in two parts and it kind of overlaps with the others but I will try to keep it on-topic to the question.

I believe that the Russian state sought to exert influence over the election of 2016 though espionage and they succeeded in doing so. I believe that this has been a long term goal for the Russian state to take power away from the United states by taking control and influence at the very top. As such I believe the Russian government sanctioned a intelligence and propaganda operation to ensure that Trump got into power, they done this though a directed intelligence operation to undermine his opponent in the election (Clinton) through a mixture of hacking (ie emails), a massive soical media onslaught and though media manipulation. This was all in a effort to ensure that Trump won.

Now the question I guess can be fairly asked why did they want Trump to win.

I think that are a few possibilities.

1. The Russian government believed that Trump would have views that are in line with the interests of the Russian state and as such they believed that his rise to power would be hugely beneficial to them.

2. The Russian government believed that Trump would be massively damaging to the united states and thus weaken their old enemy from within with out Russia having to do any more than ensure he got into power.

3. There was a deal of some sorts, we will give you the dirt on the Democrats in return when or if you get into power we want you to do x, y and z for us

4. This one is most disturbing, I believe it is also possible that Russia may have compromising information on Trump and as such are able to exert blackmail over the President, thus essentially giving the Russian state control over the United States through a proxy. Essentially this would be a covert coup of America by Russia, they very worst case.

Now as for collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians, Mike Flyn already very close to Trump has had to quit office because of his dealings with the Russians, even just today we have heard that Trumps son-in-law met with a Russian lawyer who was discussing compromising information relating to Clinton. Russia has figure prints all over the 2016 election. I think what is critical to understand is that I believe that the collusion that took place was in the Russians providing information to the Trump campaign to weaken the Clinton camp and that the Russians deliberately targeted Clinton to boost support for Trump.

2) Why do you believe they (russia and trump) did it?

I have kind of set out Russians goals for this above, I think its obvious that Trump just wanted to get into power.

3) When do you believe it started?

I believe this has been the goal of the Russian state since the cold war but specifically when this operation to get Trump into power; I think its very hard to tell. I think that a operation like this would have to be developed over decades. I do know that during the Russian Georgian war the Russians learned the importance of hacking with ATPT28 basically bringing the country to its knees though hacking. I think at that point the Russians probably realised they could use cyberwarfare to bring other states to their knees. Then in 2013 its possible that the Russian state identified Trump as a possible future presidential candidate and at that time gathered the blackmail information required to manipulate him.

I want to be clear though, I dont think that Trump is really the bad guy in all of this, I believe its the Russians. Lets not forget ATS is a conspiracy website at its heart (or used to be) and this is a conspiracy just like 9/11, UFO's or anything else. The conspiracy theory hear is that Trump is under the influence of the Russian state.

What is worrying is that current investigations currently ongoing would suggest that this is possibly being treated as more than just a conspiracy theory and that Trump has had questionable connections with the Russian state that could (I stress could) compromise his ability to execute his duties as POTUS.

I hope that answers some of your questions OP

a reply to: Dfairlite

But did it never materialize because trump didn't want to drop sanctions, or because now it is a "household name" and dropping sanctions would make him look super guilty???

That said, I do think it's fair to say it is false, if trump never drops sanctions and does give Ukraine weapons..

We might actually find out semi soon..

The GOP senate has been pushing for trump to increase Russian sanctions. Assuming they are not just "for show" sanctions, then that's at least revealing..

If trump vetos then it looks shady, if he doesn't it makes him look innocent.. nothing definative either way but telling.


On Flynn: I don't buy that Flynn did that independently, which is trumps claim. Flynn hasn't even been actually hired yet, and took it upon himself to make that call?!?!

Sure it's possible, but I don't think it is likely.. I think assuming he just took it upon himself is the leap.. the most likely is trump told him to.

Logical fallacy: that's not a logical fallacy as I am not comparing the situation to something that doesn't apply at all.

My reasoning is not only based on that.. that's just one piece of the puzzle..

For example earlier I forgot to mention that roger stone knew about the leak early and wiki leaks swears it didn't come from them.

Then there is trumps only change to the GOP party platform being not giving Ukraine weapons.. he didn't address taxes or trade or
Immigration.. nor any of the far more relevant things he doesn't agree with the GOP.. why was Ukraine his only change???


There are a dozen little tidbits that I think point to that as the logical conclusion..


That said, as we both have previously mentioned, trump could be getting set up by Russia. I think that fits all the variables as well.. Russia makes it look like that is the case, drops some shady looking info to the intelligence agencies . Then calls and sets up some meetings that after the fact look shady.. then Russian intelligence sits back and laughs as the us intelligence agencies scramble..

Last part:

Manifort might as well have been fired.. he was asked to resign.. same difference. The reason I doubt the Flynn story is as I've mentioned, I don't think almost ANYONE would assume they could make that decision with out trumps ok.

And once again, he wasn't fired for going behind trumps back and lying about his(trumps) willingness to lift sanctions.. he was fired for lying to pence, about "lying" to the ambassador..

I find that super hard to believe..


I'm not married to any idea or ideology.. I don't think I actually know the truth and everyone else is wrong..


1) I think the conspiracy sounds reasonable, no aliens, big foots or mustache twirling villians required.. any cut throat buisness man offered the deal takes it if he thinks he can get away with it.. I know I would lol..

2) We have a visible quid pro quo trail that hasn't 100% manifested, but is obviously half way there and we get to track to completion one way or the other.


Now compare that to all the obama and Hillary conspiracy theories the exact same people who swear they know trump is innocent are pushing...

A) Hillary is secretly running an elite pedo ring out of a pizza shop and has had dozens of people killed!!

B) obama is a secret Muslim socialist Plante who is purposely trying to destroy the country...


Now what is more believable??

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: jtma508

Then I guess the OP wasn't meant for you, was it?

Once again, I really appreciate a legit conversation and debate.. for once.. lol

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: Konduit

I don't think Trump is any less qualified than a community organizer from Illinois who only served 300 days in session as a senator.

A person that taught constitutional law is far more qualified than a conman that suckers people into paying him to put his name on cheap crap.

A constitutional lawyer who constantly advocates for strict gun control and pushes policies like the NDAA. You people can't really be this stupid.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
As you all know, I don't believe much of the collusion hullabaloo, but I was thinking about the whole thing today and I'm having trouble understanding what the charge of Russian collusion is even supposed to mean.

1) What specifically do you believe transpired between the trump campaign and russia that was both illegal and unprecedented?
2) Why do you believe they (russia and trump) did it?
3) When do you believe it started?

1. I believe Donald Trump and members of his campaign spoke with/met with Putin and other Russian government officials on turning his low chance of winning and making it possible. Trump agreed to forward certain pro-russia initiatives when in office if Russian could help him away the American people and/or rug the election. Russia hacked the DNC with Trumps approval (illegal), they attempted hacking of voting machines and voter reels (unsuccessfully as far as we know, but it was still attempted and therefore illegal), and lastly flooding Facebook, Twitter, and message boards with fake news about Hillary and the DNC to sway the voting populace.

2. They did it because the deal benefited them mutually. Russia can get reduced sanctions as well as greater flexibility to operate their military in the eastern bloc and the middle East. Russia's end game is annexing the former countries in the USSR. In order to help fix their economy and population growth issues. Donald Trump gets to be president.

It started shortly before the primaries. Midway through the primaries Paul Ryan already knew about the Russian connection so it must be started a good deal earlier.

a reply to: Dfairlite

Communism , unions, capitalism, socialism monarchy, democracy, globalist, etc, etc, etc..

None are inherently good or evil as they are sold by both sides..

All depend 100% on the leadership , but instead have bee twisted into buzz words meant specifically to illicit a preprogrammed response..

" don't listen to that, its communism!! Hate it instantly and put no further thought into the actual variables of their point."


It is a cheap way out that screams..

" I have no counterpoint, but have been programmed to hate anything associated with that word"



Don't let propaganda impede your rational thinking..

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Do you think it is possible/likely that Russia is setting trump up???

I agree with most of your points, I just see that as a viable option that fits all the variables as well, but no one really ever mentions.

a reply to: Lucidparadox

Would have been preprimaries..

Or atleast the FBI, CIA and NSA all say they were helping him through the primary as well.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Do you think it is possible/likely that Russia is setting trump up???

I agree with most of your points, I just see that as a viable option that fits all the variables as well, but no one really ever mentions.

I think it is possible as i said one possible motivation for the Russians wanting Trump to win may have been because they believe the damage he will do could be so catastrophic that won't need to to much more to weaken America. By extension its probably also possible that the Russians could be setting Trump up, just biding their time to drop some bombshell. They leaked Hilary emails who is to say they won't leak some correspondence with Trump that sets him up for a huge fall.

I hate Trump, but like i said, really its the Russians who are the bad guys in all of this.

a reply to: Dfairlite


Personally I have never said that trump colluded with Russia. What I have said is why did the President DENY over and over that there was a Russia story, meaning they hacked our electoral process, and to be clear NOT the voting machines. It happened and trump did not want us to know. According to people with info on the investigation, the Russians used sophisticated methods.....I am sure when all is said and done, we will all know what these methods were.



Back to trump, why did he not want us to know we were hacked? Why, why, why? Even 2 months ago he said there was no Russia story. Uh, yeah there is, and it just makes him look worse by not wanting us to know about it.


The only non incriminating reason I can see trump not wanting us to know, is because he wants to think he won the election with no Russian influence. If that is the case he is truly one of the most narcissistic people on the planet!!


Just because Putin said something, does not make it true.

originally posted by: jtma508
a reply to: Dfairlite

I know exactly as much as you and everyone else on this thread. Which is essentially nothing. We hear the speculation. We hear the spin. But we don't have any verifiable and factual information on which to base any worthwhile opinion. But at least I'm being honest.

Well posted

My thoughts on this.

People deflect and point the blame else where when they know they did wrong.

The left media and their constant bashing of trump gave him exactly that. Media coverage. Bad coverage but coverage none the less.

Then you had the president of the United states bashing trump and in turn also bashing half the country.

Hillarys email thing was just smoke. Granted "sensitive" information was hacked but let's be serious. There was absolutely nothing in those emails that would put our lives at risk. Just a bad light on the political order.

You left. Ruined your own political party and got your opposition into office. It wasn't the Russians or some foreign government. It was you and your ignorance. Nothing more nothing less. Stop whining. Sort yourself out. Regroup. And get your # together. F'ing children.