Three Questions for Left Wing, Russian Collusion Believing ATSers:

originally posted by: trollz

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: trollz

I don't believe the full investigation is over yet.

But if you really want to know my prediction, I think there will be no evidence of criminal behavior, just unethical behavior - so no impeachment, but possibly a harder time being electable in 2020.

What unethical behavior do you think he may have partaken in?

See Joshysway's post above. That pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. Trump knows how to barely skirt the law so that he doesn't break it, but he's pretty scummy just the same.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Vector99

Where does turkey get all their military equipment and oil??

Really?

Not Russia.

Trump is the most unqualified POTUS ever.
Rex Tillerson is a joke of secretary of state with no experience.
If i was Russia, or any country or entity that was opposed to USA than Trump would be my pick over Hillary any day simply for the fact that Trump has no experience in politics.
Even Trump himself admitted that being POTUS is harder than he could have ever imagined.
Enough said.

a reply to: Dfairlite

1. I believe they conspired to hack the DNC in order too get Trump into office i.n order for sanctions and money laundering investigations to be dropped or Trump was blackmailed and now does Putin's bidding.
2. They want the hundreds of billions of dollars Exxon was supposed to invest in Russia's oil industry, but the Crimean sanctions(that trump has tried to lift since day one) are blocking that deal. Sanctions that are also weakening the Russian economy. They basically want to control our government. So they can free reign to annex as many countries as they wish.
3. Trump and co have been dealing with Russia for years, but I don't think Putin really made effort until after sanding

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Ok, I greatly appreciate this response. It is detailed and seems fairly coherent. But I have some questions about this theory. I'll try to be as specific as possible.

They (Russia) gets all the private staff emails of his political opponent and drops it on the eve of the election, too close to even know if they contain anything felonious.

Two questions, first which emails are we talking about, the DNC leak emails or the podesta emails?
If it's the DNC leak emails, they were released long before the election (sometime in July IIRC). These are the emails that proved collusion and election rigging against snaders.
If it's the podesta emails they began trickling out around october 8th and continued up until election day. These emails were not hacked (in the sense that most use the word hacked), podesta gave them away through a phishing scheme in march.

In exchange for dropping sanctions and maybe not interfere if with Ukraine..

But how do you square this with sanctions remaining in place and our continued interference in ukraine until the ceasefire was adopted?

Flynn being a foreign agent for turkey, a Russian puppet state..

Turkey is a NATO country and has been since 1952. As of april of this year Russia was threatening turkey with sanctions. How are they a puppet state for russia? This would be very alarming for NATO.

Flynn telling the Russian ambassador he would lift sanctions

Why is this concerning? He was the incoming Nat Sec advisor, he has the authority to talk to ambassador's and even make hypothetical deals with them. It's not as though flynn had the authority to lift sanctions himself.

The CIA, FBI and NSA all saying Russia hacked the dnc and helped trump win both the GOP primary and the presidential election..

Trump was who hillary wanted to run against. Did hillary collude with the russians? Don't forget, the prevailing wisdom was that trump would be easiest for hillary to beat.
observer.com...

Multiple people fired when stories of their connections to Russia surfaced..

Why wouldn't they be fired? Or more pointedly, if Trump views russia as friendly to him, why would he fire anyone who had ties to them?

because it is a great deal that benefits both parties.

The only beneficiary so far is Trump. Shouldn't Putin be angry?

I have a lot more questions, but I'll leave it at that for now. This is pretty long.

a reply to: ErrorErrorError

I don't think Trump is any less qualified than a community organizer from Illinois who only served 300 days in session as a senator.

Trump didn't get elected because he is a politician, he got elected because he wasn't. He is the blowback against a political establishment that had become too full of themselves and stopped serving the people they claimed to represent.

a reply to: Dfairlite

Who knows. Whatever it is, it's something. Robert Mueller just hired 15 new attorneys to help with the investigation.

Link

You can yell all day about how it's nothing, but the simple fact is that Mueller wouldn't be hiring all these new attorneys to help him if there was nothing there.

Add to that, that Mike Pence is courting major donors on the down low right now, and you can start to get an idea of what's going on behind the scenes.

Vice President Pence is spending considerable time cultivating big-money Republican donors at small, private events, including hedge fund managers and executives from brokerage houses, chemical giants and defense contractors, Kenneth P. Vogel reports at the New York Times. Many of these events, whose participants are kept secret from the media and are omitted from Pence’s public schedule, have been taking place at the vice-presidential residence at the Naval Observatory, as well as other nongovernment venues.

Link

It seems the only people still laughing like it's nothing are Trump cultists. Even the politicians surrounding Trump are getting ready for something.

a reply to: conscientiousobserver

Thank you for the response. A couple quick questions if you don't mind taking this a little further.

1. I believe they conspired to hack the DNC in order too get Trump into office i.n order for sanctions and money laundering investigations to be dropped

So you think Trump was in on the hacking scheme, that the whole thing was master planned?

or Trump was blackmailed and now does Putin's bidding.

What bidding has been done so far?

the Crimean sanctions(that trump has tried to lift since day one) are blocking that deal.

Trump can lift those sanctions with the stroke of a pen. He doesn't need anyone else' approval. So why hasn't he lifted these sanctions?
www.politico.com...

They basically want to control our government. So they can free reign to annex as many countries as they wish.

Are you just speculating here or do you have evidence of this?

Trump and co have been dealing with Russia for years, but I don't think Putin really made effort until after sanding

What effort did putin make now that he wasn't making before?

a reply to: underwerks

the simple fact is that Mueller wouldn't be hiring all these new attorneys to help him if there was nothing there.

Mueller has open season. Lord only knows what he's investigating. He could be investigating everything from russia to hillary and everything in between.

But if it was as cut and dry as some seem to believe, you wouldn't need a firm full of lawyers. I'm not sure what to make of mueller's lawyer hiring escapade.

Add to that, that Mike Pence is courting major donors on the down low right now, and you can start to get an idea of what's going on behind the scenes.

I'm pretty sure that's SoP. However, I think Trump is considering not running in 2020. Pence is the logical candidate.

Even the politicians surrounding Trump are getting ready for something.

A politician raising money is your evidence of this?

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: underwerks

the simple fact is that Mueller wouldn't be hiring all these new attorneys to help him if there was nothing there.

Mueller has open season. Lord only knows what he's investigating. He could be investigating everything from russia to hillary and everything in between.

But if it was as cut and dry as some seem to believe, you wouldn't need a firm full of lawyers. I'm not sure what to make of mueller's lawyer hiring escapade.

Add to that, that Mike Pence is courting major donors on the down low right now, and you can start to get an idea of what's going on behind the scenes.

I'm pretty sure that's SoP. However, I think Trump is considering not running in 2020. Pence is the logical candidate.

Even the politicians surrounding Trump are getting ready for something.

A politician raising money is your evidence of this?

That's not true. Mueller is tasked with taking over Comeys investigation into the current administration. Only in the minds of narrative-sucking Trumpers is this some super secret plan to get Hillary. Hillary only matters to you, and that isn't by accident.

It would help if you actually read the article beyond the small section I posted. I know for Trumpers that's asking a lot.

In May, Pence filed paperwork with the Federal Election Commission, forming his own political action committee, the Great America Committee, marking “the first time a sitting vice president has formed such a separate political arm,” NBC News reported at the time.

Pence filed the paperwork on May 17, eight days after Trump fired FBI Director James Comey, and the same day that Deputy Attorney General Rod J. Rosenstein appointed Robert S. Mueller III to be special counsel in the Russia investigation. Indeed, the two weeks before Pence filed the Great America papers were rife with some of the most explosive news stories about the Russia scandal to date.

I get that you're trying to troll leftists by having them list out what they believe Trump is being investigated for and then talking down every point and you can do that, because the truth is no one knows. It's all speculation at this point.

What people can do is look at the actions of the important people that surround Trump and the actions of the people tasked with investigating him. That'll give you your clearest view.

But this thread wasn't made with exploring options in mind, was it? It was made to get rid of them.

And there's your sign.

a reply to: Konduit

To even compare him to obama is laughable. Obama had never led anything in his whole life.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: JHumm

Your 100% right about most of that..

Hillary lost the election because everyone hates her and only almost everyone hates trump..

Russia would not be to blame for messing with our elections since we happily do that on a regular basis..


That said TRUMP would not be blameless as he would be working with a forien adversary to swing a presidential election.. which is basically the definition of treason..

So Russia not at fault for doing what's best for Russia..

Trump is at fault for not doing what is best for America.

Hypothetically assuming it is true..

I also think the reason this is a story . Is because the FBI, CIA and NSA think it is true..

They have been fighting Russia covertly for decades, and here comes this idiot making a deal to rig the election for the Russians..

So a bunch of them are pissed and want it to come out.

Another possibility I think is likely is that Russia has set trump up..


They hack the dnc and help him win 100% without his knowledge.. then set up a bunch of seemingly legit meetings with Russian officials , that end up looking shady later..

Then they watch the us intelligence agencies in competition with Moscow scramble like chickens with their heads cut off.

Imho the benefit trail is just too obvious to be 100% coincidence.

I believe you are drawing straws. I don't believe the allegations have any merit, but... if they DID, it would be damn near impossible to charge for treason. Hillary Clinton is not the United States.

Also, a legal defense would probably lay bare the fraud that is U.S. elections... The Constitution lays out general guidelines for elections and the Electoral College... but there is very little about how parties and elections are run in America that could stand the bright sunlight of truth.

If it WAS true... yeah, it might tank his chances in 2020... but then again... the Democrats, left and their media proxies, keep publicly committing political suicide.

Have you seen their new logo?

a reply to: underwerks

That's not true. Mueller is tasked with taking over Comeys investigation into the current administration.

Ken starr was tasked with investigating whitewater (which was mostly hillary). Instead he investigated bill clintons sexual life. Without a limited scope, an independent counsel has free reign. Hillary is not out of the sights (she may be far from them, but not out) as she was part of the election.

I get that you're trying to troll leftists by having them list out what they believe Trump is being investigated for and then talking down every point

That's not the point at all. I'm trying to see where they're coming from. How they rationalize their inconsistencies in their stories. I was very up front about my skepticism and the purpose of this entire thread.

It's all speculation at this point.

I agree, but many here treat it like it isn't and I want to understand why they are so convinced.

the Great America Committee

It seems like a bad name if the MAGA president is going down... Shouldn't he be trying to distance himself from that?

But this thread wasn't made with exploring options in mind, was it? It was made to get rid of them.

It was made to see if I've missed something because I truly don't understand the conviction some people have about this issue.

a reply to: Vector99

My bad it wasn't oil..

Here is what I read about it..

www.google.com...

a reply to: Dfairlite

A person actually wanting to discuss a topic is incredibly refreshing I have to say..

So many trolls parroting talking points rather than any legit independent thoughts and discussion..


On my phone so copy pasting is too much work lol, but here goes.

The CIA, FBI and NSA all said Putin was helping trump through the primaries as well as the election.. the question I would ask back is..

So are they all three in a vast conspiracy against him???

What are the logistics required to get all three groups to lie for you and keep lying.. even after you have a new boss???

The Intelligence agencies say Russia did both hacks, so why are they lying??

About turkey: www.google.com...

Russia's new leader has been dropping NATO and getting closer and closer to Russia.



The Flynn thing is concerning because that is the hypothetical payment for dropping the leaks.... done early.. and perfectly playing into the already in play narrative that trump had traded sanctions for the leaks..

Which seems crazy to me, since he already knew that was the conspiracy theory..

Also trump has claimed he never told Flynn he would lift sanctions.. so we are supposed to believe Flynn took it upon himself to lie to the ambassador without consulting his crazy alpha male boss.. he just assumed trump would be ok with that?!!

I doubt it..that means trump told him to call and tell the ambassador that.

Your part about Hillary is obviously a logical fallacy...

Just because Hillary thought trump was beatable , doesn't mean him and Russia didn't make a deal.. that wouldn't fly in even a high school debate..

The FBI , CIA and NSA say Russia hosted most of the fake news sites and pumped out most of the crazy Clinton conspiracy theories AND did al the hacking and leaking..

3 independent organizations, all with people looking out for number one (themselves) are all risking it all to take down trump?!?!

I doubt it..

The last part...

Trump didn't fire them when he found out about their connections.. he fired them because it became a news story.. he already knew it all and didn't fire them.. then the news finds out and he let them go..

Then went on a spree saying they all did nothing wrong.... but he still fired them...

Once again I really appreciate you wanting a legit conversation.

a reply to: dasman888

So hypothetically trump colluded with an adversary nation to leak the documents of government officials and employees on the eve of the election and you don't think that is a crime against America?!?!

And it is only a crime against Hillary?!?!

a reply to: Dfairlite

My take is ...

Putin absolutely detests Obama and Clinton,
he just wanted to make life difficult for the democrats generally
and Clinton in particular

To Putin, it was all about #'s 'n' giggles, not necessarily aiming to help Trump win as such

Akin to Bin Laden not believing the turn of events after the twin towers

However, (this is my deep down gut feeling here)
Trump's team, as deeply devious and unsavoury as they are, are still sharp movers
They latched on to the whole thing, probably under the aegis of Bannon
figured out that they could ratchet things up.

Enter Stone as a front to finance anti-hillary & pro-Trump splintergroups
enabling them to pay for ads (or even, yes 'propaganda') and more crucially
to fund help from Cambridge Analytica in key states (Wisconsin and what have you ..)

This 'propaganda' from Cambridge Analytica
was then made/came from Russian affiliates
Putin, although tenuously complicit, turned a blind eye to it all
It was still #'s 'n' giggles to him : Trump could'nt possibly win (!)

Amongst all of that,
Trump Jr took the bait of getting his hands on cheap dirt about Clinton
But there was nothing to be had

and is now embroiled in a tawdry 'affair' that has little substance
but still brings the focus back to Russia/Trump
and the desperate moves employed by his team
to win at any cost, dirty tricks or no

How's that for a conspiracy !?!

a reply to: Konduit

I don't think Trump is any less qualified than a community organizer from Illinois who only served 300 days in session as a senator.

A person that taught constitutional law is far more qualified than a conman that suckers people into paying him to put his name on cheap crap.

He is the blowback against a political establishment that had become too full of themselves and stopped serving the people they claimed to represent.

And the person you put into office is no different than those other politicians. Trump serves the same people that Bush and Obama served.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: RazorV66

Bernie sanders is a communist. What does that make him lol

No he's not.

No, he is a socialist. But he did have his honeymoon in what was then (communist) soviet Russia.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

The CIA, FBI and NSA all said Putin was helping trump through the primaries as well as the election.. the question I would ask back is.. So are they all three in a vast conspiracy against him???

A valid question. No, but that doesn't mean they're correct. They get things wrong all of the time. Like when they blamed north korea for the sony hack. Or when they claimed WMD's in iraq. To further complicate things, the whole narrative boils down to crowdstrike, who blamed russia for a ukrainian incident which the ukranian sepratists insist wasn't actually russia (the separatists have motive to want it to be russia, but they admit that it wasn't.) Crowdstrike is the only one to look at the DNC server that was supposedly hacked. The three agencies listed above are just taking crowdstrike's word for it. So if their information is bad, their conclusions will be bad.

The Intelligence agencies say Russia did both hacks, so why are they lying??

See the above segment. and here's a link that discusses some of the flaws with the crowdstrike report.
goo.gl...

About turkey...

That's from 2017.

The Flynn thing is concerning because that is the hypothetical payment for dropping the leaks.... done early.. and perfectly playing into the already in play narrative that trump had traded sanctions for the leaks..

The problem is that it never materialized. You could claim there was a quid pro quo if it materialized, but it hasn't.

Also trump has claimed he never told Flynn he would lift sanctions.. so we are supposed to believe Flynn took it upon himself to lie to the ambassador without consulting his crazy alpha male boss.. he just assumed trump would be ok with that?!!

No, we shouldn't jump to conclusions about flynn's motives for saying that. It is reasonable to believe that flynn thought he could influence Trump as his national security advisor. Or that flynn wasn't really that serious about it in the first place. I mean, I see where you're coming from but it's a leap too far, it doesn't make sense to assume the worst in this case.

The FBI, CIA, and NSA say Russia hosted most of the fake news sites and pumped out most of the crazy Clinton conspiracy theories AND did all the hacking and leaking..

3 independent organizations, all with people looking out for number one (themselves) are all risking it all to take down trump?!?!

Again, their starting point being flawed would have repercussions that rang deep. Also, you're operating under the false assumption that they're infallible which they're not.

Your part about Hillary is obviously a logical fallacy... Just because Hillary thought trump was beatable , doesn't mean him and Russia didn't make a deal.. that wouldn't fly in even a high school debate..

Your entire premise is a logical fallacy. Just because the Russians ran interference, or even preferred trump, doesn't mean Trump made a deal with them. But the point isn't to win a debate here, the point is to come up with a coherent time line of events that makes sense.

Trump didn't fire them when he found out about their connections.. he fired them because it became a news story.. he already knew it all and didn't fire them.. then the news finds out and he let them go..

Who? Each person was different. Flynn was fired after his conversation with the Russian ambassador was leaked. What reason do we have to doubt the official reason given (that Flynn lied about the conversation to pence). Manafort quit. Sessions is still AG. So who else was fired for their Russian ties becoming news?