The Fallacy of The War on Drugs and Ideas to End It

a reply to: skalla

That goes without saying, but making such a weird statement about "the war on crime" makes no sense and gave me a good chuckle.

originally posted by: ketsuko
You guys want them all legal?

Then I want no social safety net for those of you who get hooked and become junkies, not even for the "children."

With great freedom comes great responsibility, and when you are talking about substances like meth and opium and how addictive they can be, that's some of the greatest responsibility out there.

I also don't want to pay for your health care, so no socialized medicine.

So let's trade. Go full libertarian in the true sense of the word, and I will listen.

If all drugs were legalized, you would never have to foot the bill for healthcare or any other safety net for anyone. Including poor people on welfare who don't use drugs.

The money to be made from the legal sale dwarfs anything currently going into social programs. Not to mention the huge amount to be saved for the taxpayer by not incarcerating non violent people.

I get from your responses you believe that drug use would be huge if it was legalized, but that isn't the case. Everywhere around the world that has decriminalized harder drugs like meth and heroin have seen a drop in usage among all demographics, and with it a reduction in crime.

It seems that when you educate people and take the "taboo" part out of the equation less people overall choose to use drugs.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TinySickTears
.And laws for murder, rape, and theft haven't stopped those things either, so why not legalize them?

Because those are violent crimes that produce a victim. Drug use only physically harms the person using and it isn't the governments job to protect me from myself.

originally posted by: underwerks

If all drugs were legalized, you would never have to foot the bill for healthcare or any other safety net for anyone. Including poor people on welfare who don't use drugs.

The money to be made from the legal sale dwarfs anything currently going into social programs. Not to mention the huge amount to be saved for the taxpayer by not incarcerating non violent people.

I get from your responses you believe that drug use would be huge if it was legalized, but that isn't the case. Everywhere around the world that has decriminalized harder drugs like meth and heroin have seen a drop in usage among all demographics, and with it a reduction in crime.

It seems that when you educate people and take the "taboo" part out of the equation less people overall choose to use drugs.

more good points. i tried to make the point about revenue just from legal MJ. it would be insane how much money would roll in.
i mentioned things like military supplies and fixing our roads but hell yes...healthcare
there would be money for that. maybe people that cant afford it now would be able to have some cause it could be available.

good point about the harder drugs too.
those will never go away either but i dont think it would be the problem some think it would be.
if you could walk into a dispensary type store and pick out the strain you want in the delivery method you want. if you would pick up a bottle of .2 gram capsules of psylocybin capsules.
people(for the most part) would not be walking away from that stuff to pick up the meth and heroin.
its just not going to happen.
of course once youre addicted to h it is a different animal but most people get started with that because its cheap and it is available. depending on where you live and whats around a bit of meth is easier to come by than smoke.

i just dont think it would be the problem people think it would.
most people even now with drugs being illegal just want to work and be productive and catch a buzz. the addict living on skid row waiting for the next fix is not the norm. thats just the type you hear about.

when you crack the paper you hear about the 1 dude that friday night that did some stupid # with some drug involved

you dont read about the millions of productive people that go to work and function every day and get their buzz on.

there are far more responsible, recreational drug enjoyers out there than full blown down and out addicts.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TinySickTears
.And laws for murder, rape, and theft haven't stopped those things either, so why not legalize them?

Because those are violent crimes that produce a victim. Drug use only physically harms the person using and it isn't the governments job to protect me from myself.

i know. i get it
didnt really feel like arguing that seeing as it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
harming someone should always be a no no
what i do with my own body should never be a no no

start crossing the line and begin harming others then yeah, different set of rules.

as long as im taking care of my family. going to work. handling my # then it should not be anyones issue what i do

a reply to: underwerks

That doesn't address the reality that some of those drugs are addictive after only one use on some people.

People are educated on that now and it doesn't stop them. Cigarettes for example are perfectly legal and people are taught all about how nicotine is one of the most addictive substances out there, but it does not stop people from smoking and getting hooked on them or on from chewing.

Cigarettes are taxed heavily which abuses the poor the most, and it's a lovely racket because they're hooked on something that's extremely difficult to get off of and highly taxed and they can afford it the least.

This is the exact same situation you are advocating we set up with currently illegal drugs.

And you know that they'll keep raising the taxes on them and everyone who doesn't do them will feel like it's all right to keep taxing the backs of the nasty drug users, and they'll hook that revenue into things not related to the "sin" they are taxing, just like they do with tobacco use now. So if the tax works, they'll hook the rest of us with new taxes to cover lost revenue.

I just think you're not thinking this fully through and opening up all kinds of cans of worms. This isn't because I am necessarily against the idea, but because I I see how they handle the legal drug of tobacco now. These won't be any different.

a reply to: TinySickTears
Exactly. I agree with you on all those points. The majority of drug users ARE responsible drug users. I know people who have had opiate addictions going on 20 years that own businesses, have families, one is even doing pretty well in the stock market. I think a lot of people would be surprised just how many people around them are on some kind of drug at any given time.

Of course there will always be the people who are idiots and do idiotic things, as there is in everything.

When a person shoots himself with a gun, we don't criminalize guns and bullets and wage war on a segment of society in an effort to stop people from hurting themselves..

a reply to: ketsuko

you seem to think that a heavy tax on drugs are going to abuse the poor or the lower class.

i dont think you are thinking this through or you dont realize how many people, not just poor or lower class enjoy drugs for recreation.

originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: TinySickTears
Exactly. I agree with you on all those points. The majority of drug users ARE responsible drug users. I know people who have had opiate addictions going on 20 years that own businesses, have families, one is even doing pretty well in the stock market. I think a lot of people would be surprised just how many people around them are on some kind of drug at any given time.

Of course there will always be the people who are idiots and do idiotic things, as there is in everything.

When a person shoots himself with a gun, we don't criminalize guns and bullets and wage war on a segment of society in an effort to stop people from hurting themselves..

yup.
i think people have this misconception that people that take drugs are down and out or hardcore robbing addicts.
there is a spectrum to that too and most people that enjoy drugs are responsible about it.

ive talked about my opiate use in threads before. a couple weeks ago i estimated that i have probably taken 20,000 vicodin in the last 19 years. ive been prescribed them for that long.
i only take 2 10milligram pills a day now but i used to take 4. for years

am i addicted? i think to a point yes
i know what i am alloted to take and i do not take more. do i think about tomorrow when i can take my vicodin again? yup.
do i shake and twitch and steal and # so i can get more? nope

people can and are responsible about it. more people than who are total # ups with it..
like i said though you only hear about the bad #

i think people would be very surprised to learn just how many people they know enjoy some drug to some degree but have no idea.

just start with your house and radiate out to a few block radius. your neighbors. your co workers.
some of them people are smoking bowls at night or eating candy or popping a couple xanex a couple times a day and it never goes further than that.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: underwerks

That doesn't address the reality that some of those drugs are addictive after only one use on some people.

People are educated on that now and it doesn't stop them. Cigarettes for example are perfectly legal and people are taught all about how nicotine is one of the most addictive substances out there, but it does not stop people from smoking and getting hooked on them or on from chewing.

Cigarettes are taxed heavily which abuses the poor the most, and it's a lovely racket because they're hooked on something that's extremely difficult to get off of and highly taxed and they can afford it the least.

This is the exact same situation you are advocating we set up with currently illegal drugs.

And you know that they'll keep raising the taxes on them and everyone who doesn't do them will feel like it's all right to keep taxing the backs of the nasty drug users, and they'll hook that revenue into things not related to the "sin" they are taxing, just like they do with tobacco use now. So if the tax works, they'll hook the rest of us with new taxes to cover lost revenue.

I just think you're not thinking this fully through and opening up all kinds of cans of worms. This isn't because I am necessarily against the idea, but because I I see how they handle the legal drug of tobacco now. These won't be any different.

It's not mine or yours or the governments place to legislate morality to anyone.

If poor people want to smoke cigarettes knowing they're bad for them they should be able to. If someone wants to shoot heroin, they should be able to, and they should have a safe clean product that doesn't fund criminal activity and violence.

You can't really compare cigarettes and drug use in the manner you are. Any adulterants added to heroin or meth or whatever other substance isn't a good thing. One of the main reasons for legalization is to stop the adulterants that are currently in drugs, like the fentanyl epidemic sweeping the country and killing people as we speak.

People are going to shoot up whether you, me, or anyone likes it or not. 100 years of illegality later and the percentage of Americans that use drugs is almost the exact same. Almost the EXACT same.

The war on drugs doesn't work. Period. I believe it's about time we look at this like rational adults.

a reply to: TinySickTears

Oh, I am aware of that.

Also consider when thinking about tobacco ... until you abuse it enough that the inevitable health consequences start years down the road, it does not seriously impede your ability to conduct the daily business of your life. People who are addicted to tobacco can still hold down their jobs, have normal family life, all those good things all while still being chained to tobacco. It is a nasty, stinky, expensive habit, but that's about it.

Can you say the same if you are unlucky enough to get hooked on coc aine, or meth, or heroine?

Sure you might be able to remain just a recreational user, but some of those substances, like meth, are very, very risky to play with and unlike something like tobacco could cost you a whole lot of you get hooked.

and i want to say how is me doing that any worse than other productive people that drink a few beers every night or have a few shots?
1 is looked at as ok and even socially acceptable and the other is looked down upon.

people seem worried about the poor that will get taxed or having to foot the bill for addict programs..
i wonder what the stance is on the millions of total load out alcoholics across this country.
people that scrounge and collect cans to get enough for a pint of fortified wine then fall asleep pissing themselves on the side of the road.
holding up signs at wal mart cause they need food and god bless but really just want a drink.

those people are not the norm for people that drink. there are far more people that are responsible about how often and how much they drink.
making booze illegal is not even an option and we see how well that went when they tried it

drugs should be treated the same way

demonize people that take a few pills a day or smoke a joint at night but people that drink a few every night of their life is totally fine.
makes no sense

a reply to: underwerks

Yes, you can.

I am saying that the same issues you have with societal tobacco use, you will see with legalized hard drugs. Nicotine is addictive in the same way that many of them are, so I would expect that you will see the same or similar levels of usage in similar populations.

Now you need to consider the effects of hard drug addiction in the mix.

That's why I say we need to disentangle the social safety net from this if we do it. There are a lot of people who smoke tobacco or chew despite being thoroughly educated on all the risks. Despite all the taxes. Etc.

But unlike tobacco users, hard rugs addicts tend to lose their ability to cope with their habit rather quickly.

I would move to a prohibition restricted area with zero tolerance if I had a problem with recreational drugs.
Unfortunately these days that is usually a correctional facility with walls.

a reply to: ketsuko

i see what you are saying and i dont totally disagree.

the thing is i do not agree with being policed by your or others or the government under the guise of my health.
again though there is a spectrum

what is hooked?

just cause a person is 'hooked' on coke does not mean they are blasting 8 balls off the toilet at work every day.
maybe they come home and take a bump then play cornhole.
just saying

im 'hooked' on vicodin but im not searching for more and crushing them up and railing them.
varying degrees of hooked

a reply to: TinySickTears

Yep. You're preaching to the choir.

While I was prescribed oxy I worked 12 hours a day 6 days a week doing hard manual labor, for 5-6 years. And yes I was addicted.

Would I have been able to hold down a job and support myself and the others I was at the time if I didn't have a legal, monthly source?

Probably not. If I had been relegated to the streets to search for my next fix I would have probably ended up one of those dirty junkies that people talk about bringing society down. Or dead.

When everything is above board, life goes on for people addicted to drugs the same as everyone else. And this could be the way it is for most people that are out on the streets right now, if people could only get over this absurd notion that punishing drug users helps them in some way.

a reply to: ketsuko

you seem to be focused on the percentage of hardcore addicts that can not function.

i am focusing on the much larger percentage of people that are responsible about their habits.

and the people you are focusing on exist now. you seem to think it will be far worse if drugs are legalized but the fact is you dont know that.

i think it will be less severe but i admit i dont know for sure.

i just know what i see and what i have been around my entire life.
i also know the lack of success this war on drugs has had the past 100 years so i dont understand the rationale behind keeping it going.
it has not done anything to stifle drug use.
lots of money spent trying to fight it
lots of non violent people thrown in jail and lives ruined

the drugs remain

about time to give something else a shot i say

a reply to: underwerks

and how many people would never even be prescribed opiates if MJ was a legit, legal option?
even for minor #. get a tooth pulled? no need for a script for 10 percocet. go get some cbd candy

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: underwerks

Yes, you can.

I am saying that the same issues you have with societal tobacco use, you will see with legalized hard drugs. Nicotine is addictive in the same way that many of them are, so I would expect that you will see the same or similar levels of usage in similar populations.

Now you need to consider the effects of hard drug addiction in the mix.

That's why I say we need to disentangle the social safety net from this if we do it. There are a lot of people who smoke tobacco or chew despite being thoroughly educated on all the risks. Despite all the taxes. Etc.

But unlike tobacco users, hard rugs addicts tend to lose their ability to cope with their habit rather quickly.

Prescribed hard drug user here, and I have to say that isn't the truth.

The idea that addicts can't control themselves and start to do more and more is BS. Opiate users eventually level out at a certain dosage, and any more doesn't make you feel better, it can make you feel worse.

The idea of foaming at the mouth drug users who have no control over themselves is a drug war myth, and one anyone with any actual experience can recognize as BS.

a reply to: TinySickTears

I am not focused on those who can function.

I am focused on those who won't be able to. They're the ones we need to plan for because like it or not, they *will* exist and quite possibly in greater numbers than you think.

Any plan to legalize has to take that into account along with the unpleasant side effects of the harder drugs. How does society deal with the psychotic meth head, for example? Sure, it was legal for him to use, but now he's on a real bad trip and danger to himself and everyone around him. Is it legal for someone with a firearm to shoot him?