Would you dare...

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: chr0naut

I know as you can see from the more honest answer below yours:
It's learned behaviour.

...Umwelt-damage= social not psychological. Or socio-psychological would be more beneficial.

You don't seem to understand. I was not dishonest. I acknowledge that there are different cultures but really don't think I discriminate racially at all. Let me explain:

I am a mix of French and English (and possibly Scandinavian). I was born an Australian but reside in New Zealand. My wife is a Pakeha but her family adopted a Maori girl and so there are dark skinned Maori that I consider my family. I am also a bit Aspergers and so I am not able to read the emotions of other very well and I am simply unemotional about race.

My youngest brother is married to a beautiful Korean woman who is also incredibly talented musically.

When I was a newly-wed, a Samoan friend (who had severe heart issues and was debilitated by strokes, from contracting Rheumatic Fever as a teen), lived with us for over ten years during which he became totally integrated into our young family. He was like an adopted son that I loved like my own children. Sadly, he has now passed away.

When I was younger, I dated an Australian Aboriginal girl and a couple of Asian girls. I had a massive crush on a work colleague who was a dark skinned Mediterranean girl. I also had a crush on an Israeli girl but she was 'out of my league' and so I never got very far with her. Perhaps their differences, their 'otherness' was part of their attraction to me?

Some of my friends are Pacific Islanders, Philippinos and Maoris. I have also lived (back in Sydney) with Arabic Muslim people as neighbors on either side. They were wonderful people and we used to share meals with them on occasion.

We have opened our home here in NZ to international students who board with us while studying at a local college. We've had two Japanese students and a Chinese student so far and have tried to learn a little of their languages and culture while sharing our own. As a multicultural house parent, I have had to deal with teenagers who also have language barriers. It can be frustrating but is ultimately worth it because everyone you let into your life enriches it in different ways.

So, that's the number 3 issue explained.

I have slept in a graveyard, I had too much to drink. It was a warm summer Sydney night and seemed a quiet safe deserted place to sleep it off.

So, that's the number 2 issue sorted.

I lived in beside the Aussie bush (it was just over the road) and there were also cleared park lands everywhere. Since my youth, I have been interested in Astronomy, so I often walk through dark parks at night and spend time there. It's no big deal.

So, that's number 1 "done and dusted".

a reply to: chr0naut

You make a good argument. And I would be very hard pressed to think you a racist based on what I've learned about you in this thread and many, many others. But, if you'll indulge me for just a moment, I would like to play a quick round of Devil's Advocate...

Isn't your last comment basically the same as saying "I can't be racist! I have a black/latino/asian/whatever friend!"
Which, according to all the social indictments of subconscious racial bias I've seen lately from various useless professors and bloggers, is a tacit admission of racism no matter what the person saying it actually believes.

Now, that being said, my previous point about my belief in your sterling character still stands. I know we may not always, or sometimes even often, se eye to eye on a lot of things, but I respect you nonetheless.
The reason I went into the characterization of what you'd said about your obvious openmindedness is because there are legions of folks out there who would read that and see exactly the nonsense I described, and label you a bigot in their minds. And you don't deserve that.

IMO it's a mainly learned behavior, from traits taught and seen in elders, to environmental stimuli or lack of ethnicity wise. Have observed that living in different places and how people tolerate ethnicities.

1. ...to walk through a dark park at night?
I have numerous times, some safer areas, some not.

2. ....to sleep in a graveyard?
Ended up stuck in the cemetery that was way out while ghost hunting, decided to stick around till after the fog.

3. ...to invite a stranger, no matter what age, nationality or gender, into your home? (The first one "fortune" sends knocking on your door, not your choice)
Yes, some results positive, other not so much.

a reply to: dreamingawake

I would say that if no other racial bias has been taught to a child, growing up in an area with no real ethnic diversity may elicit feelings of unease and/Or curiosity when encountering a group of people from a different racial background for the first time. This is usually a peer group, in a school setting, I'd imagine. But, having no reason to distrust other races other than the initial wariness of a new experience, I would think they would quickly overcome any misgivings and see them as just other people.
Personally, I was raised by Irish Catholic grandparents from Chicago, who grew up during the Depression. I haerd every ethnic slur and insult you could imagine before I was 10, and I was taught that other races were inferior. Especially black people.

I actually grew up believing this was mostly true, until my early or mid teens. I was at the age and stage of mental development to have and truly embrace the major epiphany that my grandparents, despite all the good things about them, were simply racist a**holes, and their view of the world was NOT how things actually worked.
Yes, some people can be trash, and some can be solid gold. But their racial heritage has zero influence in making that determination. It's who a person is and how they live their life that defines them. Nothing more.

originally posted by: pfishy
a reply to: chr0naut

You make a good argument. And I would be very hard pressed to think you a racist based on what I've learned about you in this thread and many, many others. But, if you'll indulge me for just a moment, I would like to play a quick round of Devil's Advocate...

Isn't your last comment basically the same as saying "I can't be racist! I have a black/latino/asian/whatever friend!"
Which, according to all the social indictments of subconscious racial bias I've seen lately from various useless professors and bloggers, is a tacit admission of racism no matter what the person saying it actually believes.

Now, that being said, my previous point about my belief in your sterling character still stands. I know we may not always, or sometimes even often, se eye to eye on a lot of things, but I respect you nonetheless.
The reason I went into the characterization of what you'd said about your obvious openmindedness is because there are legions of folks out there who would read that and see exactly the nonsense I described, and label you a bigot in their minds. And you don't deserve that.

It is always possible to overlay one's own preferences upon others so I can see that others might "tar me with their brush".

But it makes no rational sense to me, to ascribe race as a criteria for value judgements of people.

And I'm fairly sure that I do judge and classify people. The fact that I clearly delineate some as family, some as friends and some as acquaintances shows that.

I probably classify people mostly by how much they interest me or by how much I value them. By their intellect or their artistic and musical abilities. By how much affinity I feel (commonality of experience and understanding based upon that). By my impressions of how they feel about me. By common goals, beliefs and expectations. In light of those, race is not a good criteria.

originally posted by: pfishy
a reply to: dreamingawake

I would say that if no other racial bias has been taught to a child, growing up in an area with no real ethnic diversity may elicit feelings of unease and/Or curiosity when encountering a group of people from a different racial background for the first time. This is usually a peer group, in a school setting, I'd imagine. But, having no reason to distrust other races other than the initial wariness of a new experience, I would think they would quickly overcome any misgivings and see them as just other people.

Exactly, environmental. I moved to a pretty remote place after growing up in one that was if not the most at the time, multicultural areas in the US. People were night in day when it came to race, and it was a normality for some how they directed themselves to those not of their race. It's not to say racism didn't exist in the multicultural areas, because it does.

Personally, I was raised by Irish Catholic grandparents from Chicago, who grew up during the Depression. I haerd every ethnic slur and insult you could imagine before I was 10, and I was taught that other races were inferior. Especially black people.

I actually grew up believing this was mostly true, until my early or mid teens. I was at the age and stage of mental development to have and truly embrace the major epiphany that my grandparents, despite all the good things about them, were simply racist a**holes, and their view of the world was NOT how things actually worked.
Yes, some people can be trash, and some can be solid gold. But their racial heritage has zero influence in making that determination. It's who a person is and how they live their life that defines them. Nothing more.

Sorry to hear. I heard, but dunno if true, that Irish Catholics started to be biased as such to fit in with majority ethnicities because that is how they were treated before a certain time. Sad if so that they would choose to be the bully when they were bullied. As mentioned dunno if true but one theory on that and not to dismiss any racists as well.

Yes, racism goes beyond racial heritage, no race is immune.

a reply to: dreamingawake

Irish Catholic immigrants were viewed in the same light as Blacks, Chinese, etc in the 19th century. But my family immigrated to the US in 1910. The view of racial bias was brought with them from Ireland, and strengthened in their children by the segregated neighborhoods. I.e. blacks aren't allowed past street A, Italians stay between C and E, Irish stayed between F and H, etc. It wasn't a legally structured segregation, mind you.
It was the different immigrant populations grouping together in individual areas, and enforcing it themselves.

originally posted by: pfishy
a reply to: dreamingawake

Irish Catholic immigrants were viewed in the same light as Blacks, Chinese, etc in the 19th century. But my family immigrated to the US in 1910. The view of racial bias was brought with them from Ireland, and strengthened in their children by the segregated neighborhoods. I.e. blacks aren't allowed past street A, Italians stay between C and E, Irish stayed between F and H, etc. It wasn't a legally structured segregation, mind you.
It was the different immigrant populations grouping together in individual areas, and enforcing it themselves.

Yeah, that makes more sense of them not used to being in a multi cultural area.

I'd assume then my Irish Catholic immigrant family grew up in some self segregation in White Harlem and Hell's Kitchen but was never aware of them being racist, would assume then they moved from that if ingrained, especially marrying into another ethnicities family.

Yup, until the 1940s or so Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans and even Germans were not considered white.

I'd assume then too not all immigrants wanted to self segregate, sure some did out of what they seen as necessity and as you mention brought that from where they lived before immigration. Half of my family changed their name and learned English, willingly, liking the new culture to them and likely as Anglicisation helped them obtain opportunities.

a reply to: dreamingawake

The immigration system was built around the premise of newcomers doing exactly what you described. Doing their best to become integrated members of their new nation and society.
Self segregation does lend itself to racial bias, among citizens and immigrants alike.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Taupin Desciple

"hate & intolerance"? Why do you "hate"? And what is "intolerable"?

You would have to ask the people who do that.

a reply to: pfishy

You are a trained & experienced fighter?

a reply to: pfishy & a reply to: dreamingawake

Hope you don't mind me weighing in...

originally posted by: pfishy
a reply to: dreamingawake

The immigration system was built around the premise of newcomers doing exactly what you described. Doing their best to become integrated members of their new nation and society.
Self segregation does lend itself to racial bias, among citizens and immigrants alike.

....but is totally understandable as the "tribe" promises safety in a strange & frightening new social "universe".

I have 3 kids so no stranger is entering my home without the correct reason and authentication, ill take sleeping in a graveyard over the park because ive got worse things to fear then ghosts in a park lol

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Peeple

I do it every night. I actually like walking around in the pitch black dark. Its thrilling to know that no one can see you. Last blackout when the whole east coast went out after 9/11, I spent the night running around.

I can sleep anywhere. Crowded side walk, formula 1 race, and yes a grave yard.

A couple months ago I let a whole family stay over because they didnt have a place to go. We got the phone call from a mutual acquantance, (person we knew from kids school loosely), a couple hours later they were using my daughters room, our bathroom and kitchen table.

The last one I have done plenty of times. More when I was younger and had more unstable people around me.

Edit to add:
People you dont know I treat the same. I greet them at the door. If they get in they are alright.
I have turned plenty down. Hasnt failed me ever.

Even the bad ones didnt let me down too much

Awesome approach. In that "string of you" we all can find something to hold at heart.
Like Jesus did, ey?(*Sorry I am mean that way)

a reply to: Peeple

I would do 1 and 2, 2 most definitely, as for 3 probably not. I am single mom and wouldn't want a stranger in my house. I am pretty cautious about who I let in my home.