Did the holocaust contribute to Hitlers defeat.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

You're ignoring the fact the invasion of the USSR was a war of extermination. They wanted to kill the majority of the local population, enslave the rest and set up Reichskonmissariats for Germans to rule them.

Without the ethnic and racial policies of Hitler, there would be no invasion of the USSR. There was no plan where a "Heroic Hitler" shows up to "liberate" the Soviets from the "evil Stalin".

It doesn't even make sense historically. It sounds like some weird Neo-Nazi fan fiction about an alternate WW2

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Ohanka


From what I've heard everywhere (roughly ) west of Moscow hated Stalin.

Excellent point Many Jewish people in Poland, USSR actually welcomed the Germans as saviours from the Soviets. Only twenty years had passed since the Great War and during that time the German Empire actually was considred by eastern european Jews as a godsend and indeed relations were very good between the German invaders (who won that war in the east) and local Jews who had been terrorised by Slavs for a century, forced to live in a massive concentration camp called the Pale and indeed had forced half of them already before WW1 to escape the Russian Empire and head for the Americas, western europe and South Africa. Ashkenaz Jews daft as it sounds had very fond memories of Germans in 1939 eastern Europe

a reply to: crazyewok

As you know it is a very complex subject, Hitlers regime would have ran out of money long before the war ended but they stole the wealth of the Jews and also the wealth of the nation's they invaded, Hitler had a personal grudge which he tried to explain in his twisted fantasy autobiography but the truth itself may be more complex and he may simply have been an at heart hater of an entire people, a people that were NOT new immigrant's but had been in German and the rest of Europe for Hundreds of years, indeed some part's well over a thousand year's, a people whom had suffered because of twisting of religion by previous despots and whom had been massacred time and again even in country's were you may not expect, there was an expulsion of the Jews from medieval England for example and most were thrown over board by the ship's that were supposed to take them to France and robbed on the way there of what few possession's they had.

For a very long time they were victim's of Pogrom's, Religious massacre's and greed inspired expulsion's were the various rulers would seize there asset's time and again.

In Russia the Pogrom's continued up to the Soviet time's and indeed well into them.

What Hitler did was the latest of these massacres and of course the largest but perhaps not the last, even Jewish settlers in Palestine and Native middle eastern Jews suffered regular massacres by the Arab's (Surprise - surprise) and this of course was the fate of a people whom had no homeland, a people whom lived as outcast's and set themselves as much apart as did there host nation's, a people with unique tradition's and culture that was in many ways unlike the country's in which they dwelt.

Hitlers murder of the Jews (And of course he also planned the same fate for all Gypsy's and every Slavic person - sorry Ukrainian's that included you too) was one of the most evil act's of the twentieth century, the attempted annihilation of an entire race of people and in a quirk of horrible irony,.
This is a Telegraph article which explain's that Hitler's relative's have DNA showing they have both African and Ashkenazin ancestry?.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

And this is an Independant newspaper article claiming that Eva Braun from hair samples recovered may also have had Jewish ancestry.

www.independent.co.uk... enazi-9239784.html

Not sure how to fix those links' if they do not show up as ATS pages have a quirk were long Url's don't display properly or link properly, if so just use the Quote function to copy and past the full Urls into your browser as that is the only foolproof way I know of bypassing that quirk.

Personally I grew up absolutely hating the Nazi's as I myself have some Jewish ancestry AND like many of you I am British and used to play war as a kid using a stick as my imaginary rifle and the enemy was always the Nazi's when we played those game's so the Yank's can understand for us it was a little like there older cowboy's and injians.

Back to your main point though, likely it could have cost Germany the war but in reality part of the murderer of these people was to cover up the theft of there asset's which helped to fund the NAZI's war machine and propeganda system.

a reply to: crazyewok

In the beginning stages of WW2, Hitler seized all properties and moneys belonging to the Jewish Germans. These properties and moneys had a large value. They are partially what helped to fund the Nazi war machine, as well as contributing to the demise of the various classes of imprisoned citizens and former citizens.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: crazyewok

had been in German and the rest of Europe for Hundreds of years, indeed some part's well over a thousand year's

Good point There were Jews in Germany long before there were Christians. If you take it from a time perperspective Jews had been Germany long before German Christians emerged, especially in the western regions along the rhine where the Romans settled.

a reply to: Ohanka

No that was the OP.. at least from my understanding..

What if the holocaust (and I assumed other atrocities ) didn't happen..

I have said what you just stated repeatedly lol, but that BEFORE the invasion big chunks of the Soviet Union thought he was comming as a liberator, not as a genocidal monster...

From there, assuming he had not commuted a war of extermination, might he have gained half the USSR's military??

That's my thinking..

If he had come as a liberator, he prob wins...a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Quite simply put, all the people he murdered could of fought for him.... He killed what? 10 million civilians alone?

Dumbass... Just because those people butt hurt him.

1.I do not deny the holocaust I have seen Einsatzgruppen and camp footage however I cannot say just how large an operation it was it was June 24 1940 when the world Jewish congress claimed that 6 million Jews were doomed IF GERMANY WON THE WAR.
So the 6 million number seems to of been an invention which stuck.

a reply to: kef33890

Rather more complex than that through.

It was not just Hitler that implemented the Holocaust, plenty of other nefarious bastards wished to see racial purity come about.

Himmler for one, who had his own twisted esoteric agenda intertwined with the Nazis.

The Vatican also allegedly knew about what was transpiring.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
That's my thinking..

If he had come as a liberator, he prob wins...a reply to: ufoorbhunter

That was exactly the result 20 years previous. Jews were on Germany's side in WW1 when the army entered Poland, Ukraine, etc. Jews in the east even spoke to all intents Yiddish basically a simailar and understandable language as the German invaders. They won the First World War............... In the East. Russia gave up the fight and surrendered much of eastern europe. Had Hitler done the same and come as friend and liberator there was a very good chance he'd have succeeded in the east. The only serious oppostion capable of fighting back was USSR and they had just murdered their entire military leadership At this time of madness hitler should have cleaned up in the east.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Hitler and the Nazi party problem seems to be that he refused to listen to military advice.

The smart commander always listens to his generals, stands to reason, Hitler simply refused to listen to sense.

The again he was a speed freak operating on the brink of reality, rather surprising the genocidal bastard managed to achieve anything really, nefarious or otherwise.

Rather a few of them had an amphetamine dependency, it was rampant down to Pervitin.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: ufoorbhunter


The again he was a speed freak operating on the brink of reality, rather surprising the genocidal bastard managed to achieve anything really, nefarious or otherwise.

From what's been coming out recently it looks like the whole of Germany was on speed during that time. Be it the women doing the ironing or the man at the front the whole country was encouraged to take speed. No wonder things went tits up on the comedown No way could the German army survive against 10,000,000 Soviet troops hammered on Vodka. Game over, piss heads won that one not the druggies.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

U.S/U.K feed similar stuff to there own troops during the Vietnam conflict, special forces anyway, but i think that the troops were more interested in all the high quality Heroin and Ganja doing the rounds.

Methamphetamine is a hell of a drug i would not like to have seen the Nazi dentist bills for the time period. To be honest i'm surprised any of them had a tooth left in there mouths.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

U.S/U.K feed similar stuff to there own troops during the Vietnam conflict, special forces anyway, but i think that the troops were more interested in all the high quality Heroin and Ganja doing the rounds.

Good point. The Brits and Yanks were certainly dosed up in that period. To be frank about it I've always felt that the Foo Fighter phenomenon was caused by the phet use on the long distance bombing raids which 'helped' the air crews tune into a different visual frequency.

Don't US pilots still use phet on missions today?

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

"Don't US pilots still use phet on missions today?"

I don't know mate but i do know that speed is a hell of a drug and that any long term use brings about schizophrenic like episodes.

So if the pilots are still consuming the stuff in the same manner that the Luftwaffe did i would be very worried.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

"Don't US pilots still use phet on missions today?"

So if the pilots are still consuming the stuff in the same manner that the Luftwaffe did i would be very worried.

It may account for all the friendly fire incidents.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: ufoorbhunter


I don't know mate but i do know that speed is a hell of a drug and that any long term use brings about schizophrenic like episodes.

Where it gets really weird is with Hitlers god like doctor, think the name was Morell or something similar. Turned out he was Jewish like so many of the Nazis in power. Rather unfortunate but Hitler waived the pass card on so many of these individuals. Morell was the one who came up with Hitlers miracle cures and Adolf came to rely on this guy like no other. He wen tall the way and saved Morell right to the end. Hitler couldn't operate without his Jewish doctors increasingly powerful and fully loaded speed ball mixes with just about every known drug at that time being pumped into Hiters arteries. You couldn't make it up if you tried lol

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The hypocrisy is mind boggling, i mean Jewish doctors???

Maybe these doctors won the war by way of doping the guy up for 90% of the time?

Because that conflict could have played out a whole lot different should the crazy bastard have listened to military council, people like Karl Dönitz, Erwin Rommel, Rudolf Hess, even Albert Speer all tried to make the man see sense and failed miserable generally to there own downfall.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Just some thoughts I have been musing.

If you think about it ths Holocaust would of been a very expensive operation.

It would of required 10,000 of men, billions of dollors worth of material to build the camps, material deprately needed in a resource strapped Germany.....
Plus you needed guns, uniforms ect for the guards.....

According to Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz-Birkenau, he was not given a budget with which to build the camp, just a location and orders to do so. The building materials he requisitioned, plundered and stole. The labour was free and expendable. The Nazi guards were minimal, much of the enforcement being carried out by specific groups of "favoured" prisoners. Uniforms could be made by slave labour, even the fabric woven, since slave labour was doing all the hard work what else was there for pure Germans to do but oversee that work. Lots of women Nazis manning the camps in a variety of capacities. Guns and ammo only became short in supply towards the latter stages of the war, until that, in all things, if you were ethnically German, there was abundance. That attitude certainly helped them lose the war. Total war should have been instituted years before it was, "lucky" for the rest of us that it wasn't.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Then you got the trains and trucks wasted. Germany was also short of train carriages to carry needed logistical supplys to the Russian front and worse there was many instances where vital war material was delayed for days while the train line was used for transports to camps.

Logistically, regarding the overall movement of people, not just the death transports, they were insanely wasteful. They were running train loads of people back and forth and all over the place. The Auslander movement had promised German emigres aboard homes and land if they returned to Germany. The Auslanders returned and found that by Germany they meant Greater Germany and that their homes still had ethnic Poles living in them that required "relocating". The Poles deemed suitable for slavery, or Nazification, could find themselves transported East, then West then back again. Hitler identified problems and demanded solution without quibble or explanation. There were arguments, well documented, about who should take responsibility for such and such a group of people, people were bought and sold en masse, and slavery is, as it ever was, where life is cheap and expendable, hugely profitable for the SS and those companies who used it. The Holocaust, and the Reich Jews who were transported following the Wannsee Conference, were an economic issue and a health risk, they were pushed by one bureaucrat to another in a neighbouring region, until Hans Frank stomped his feet, and Heydrich was forced to implement the Final Solution. Cost was not a consideration, and by seizing the property of the Jews, denying them the right to work etc, they had created the situation themselves in 1934 when the Nuremberg Laws were cobbled together on Rudolf Hess's napkin at the last minute.

If you think about it, given that the Final Solution was decided and implemented at a time when it was understood by some in Germany that they might not, after all Hitler's claims of destiny and the thousand year Reich, not win the war, the Holocaust can be seen as a pre-post-war money saver. Had all those Jews survived the starvation and disease in the ghettos for the few years that the war had left to run, they may have wanted their property back. And not just the Jews.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Then you have the waste in human lives. 5 million jews and millions of more polish, gypsy, Russians ect. Why kill them? Why make enemys of people you could CONSCRIPT and use in your war ?

They killed them because they considered, believed them to be racially inferior, lesser to them, or a contaminate to humanity. All sorts of crazy #, but they weren't alone, such ideas of eugenics were widespread. The Germans did it to their own people first. Euthanised the disabled and the feeble minded. Sterilised others. They also locked up, and or killed, all opposition. They valued the lives of those who were like them and thought like them. They didn't plan mass genocide, they kind of talked themselves into it by taking to extremes the popular if elitist "science" of the day.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Is there any evidence out there on what the NAZIs odd obsession with genocide cost them?

I don't think that they had an "odd" obsession with genocide, or if they did, it was in that they acknowledged it's inferiority, that gentlemen would not lower themselves to such an act as to wipe out a whole race, did everything that they could to avoid it, but they promised that they would rid Germany of Jews, and they decided that the only way, having exhausted all other avenues, in their opinion, to do so, had to deport them. Having deported them they became Hans Franks problem, and Hans Frank was happy to commit others to genocide. Simply feeding them was never seriously debated, it was definately never given the level of consideration that modes of mass death were.

Financially, I am sure that the Jews, Slavs, Poles etc were all more profitable dead than alive. They were taken for everything. Not all that flowed into Nazi coffers though. There was much division of booty, as well as corruption, at all levels of society as well as at all levels of the party and SS.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Seems to me the NAZI shot themselves in the foot, wasting time and energy in a pointless endeavour while fighting a war with 3 supers powes.......

Hitler shot himself in the foot by invading Russia,for which, I suppose, we should all be grateful, especially those of us a little prone to feeble-mindedness. The war crimes are only crimes because they lost (except slavery, which was a crime and willful neglect of POWs), but in terms of gains, of plundering the Jews and slave labour of Jews and non-Jews, plenty of beneficiaries of that still going strong and thriving on the gains they made by cutting the wage element down. Not to mention what Bayer gained in cornering the drug market by being able to go through swathes of human test subjects without consequences.The second world war, given Hitler's clearly stated objectives outlined in Mein Kampf, enabled corporations to invest in Hitler, financially, on the basis of gaining the confiscated properties of those targeted groups. Hitler didn't plan to invade Russia anytime in the near future, but the Urals were part of Hitler's long time goal, why he chose to change that plan is an interesting study, but that he did is what lost him the war and as importantly, bought the Allies time. I think that the imminence and growing likelihood of losing the war precipitated the mass transports and the creation of the death camps, but that doesn't explain the actions of the Einsatzgruppen, annihilation of all dissent and opposition while masquerading as ethnic cleansing to create an atmosphere of duty and necessity, may do though but that is because they were motivated by very different reasons.