The employment process today BLOWS and I'm about to lose it.

originally posted by: southpaws

originally posted by: mblahnikluver
a reply to: southpaws

Maybe you should read a thread in its entirety before replying. I am not even going to read past your first line. Get a life.

Let me get this right. You're offended that someone took the time to try and help, so felt the need to lie and act like my doing so is somehow a wrong?

You have no further to wonder why it is you're in such a situation than to look at how you are reacting to people who want to help.

If you can't handle an honest assessment, then you have more difficulties in front of you than not being able to find a job.

I didn't see anything in your opening line about help.

Start a business? THAT is your advice. Sorry but it costs MONEY to start a damn business. I am a single mom with NO INCOME. I don't have money lying around to start a business. I don't have money lying around to buy food right now! I have $36 in my bank account. SO please tell me how you are helping me. All I see is rudeness.

Again if you READ my replies you would see i have a job now and you would also get a sense of who I am and who I am not. I have every right to complain and vent about a process that is utter crap now a days. Not everyone has it easy with finding work. Some have it harder than others. I didn't say I wanted sympathy either. I was venting MY personal frustration with a process I didn't understand. The last time I went through this process was almost 10 years ago and it was very different. So yea RANT.

ALSO this is the RANT FORUM. Do you know what a rant is??? If not maybe you need a dictionary.

originally posted by: [post=22385454]mblahnikluver]

I didn't see anything in your opening line about help.

Start a business? THAT is your advice. Sorry but it costs MONEY to start a damn business. I am a single mom with NO INCOME. I don't have money lying around to start a business. I don't have money lying around to buy food right now! I have $36 in my bank account. SO please tell me how you are helping me. All I see is rudeness.

I told you how. Liquefy your assets. You can replace "start your own business" with "join the gig economy" if only temporarily. The thought being, your main approach of endlessly applying at conventional jobs wasn't producing beneficial outcomes, so go a different route. I also mentioned moving to a better area. Both of my suggestions should have been common sense. I don't know why so many have issues leaving for better opportunities. I've done this a few times now.

Again if you READ my replies you would see i have a job now and you would also get a sense of who I am and who I am not. I have every right to complain and vent about a process that is utter crap now a days. Not everyone has it easy with finding work. Some have it harder than others. I didn't say I wanted sympathy either. I was venting MY personal frustration with a process I didn't understand. The last time I went through this process was almost 10 years ago and it was very different. So yea RANT.

That's fair enough, but you most certainly were looking for sympathy. You don't have to spell it out. I'm glad you found a job.

a reply to: tadaman

I debated on if it was best to bother replying a last time or not & decided it may be a good idea to inform whoever reads the post. Plenty of people think creating multiple accounts to game a site is easy. Not entirely.

Depending on the forum architecture and admin tools on the back-end, you may or may not have an easy time only going through so many measures to evade detection. If you're thinking this is as easy as getting a new email and making a new acct, you're wrong and will be found out swiftly without any further action outside of simply posting a response.

You're also wrong in thinking you can find a new acct through looking at their posting style. If only it were so easy.

Most modern software has the capacity to easily parse logs that track requests by IP address. For a forum, I imagine their would be the IP next to a members name when they post or register. Auto-flagging and sending a note to admin, or outright disallowing a new acct creation based on duplicate IP would be a fairly sane policy, but there's issues here.

If you could get to a stage where you're gaming the system for a period of time without duplicate IP detection, then you'd have to evade people finding you out by the basics you mentioned. Now think about that. Would someone who hasn't the skill to adequately evade, bother with this after going through the effort and being banned? No. That's why most people don't actually do this. They get caught. You know what it takes to NOT get caught? A lot of effort.

You would need to go as far as having a block of IP at a single physical location, and setting up a physical machine or VM for every account, on top of an email acct, and then use a different persona for each that would not be found out anytime soon. Very few people can do that, and even that isn't enough in many cases.

If an admin can look at the IP, they can use common sense and see a IP block from posters replying to each other. So you got to be even more clever, and use even more of your time to set the system up correctly. You'll need to use proxies from different IP block ranges, which you could try and go free and take the risk, but public proxies tend to be put on blacklists rather quickly. So you have to actually PAY to do this correctly, and you wouldn't use just 2 or 3 accounts, you're looking at paying for a dozen virtual private servers, and if that IP is found it may be a wasted invoice.

After you have setup your proxies, with different browser signatures on different physical or VM devices, you'll have to have master-level psychology skills to correctly game a forum. You don't go for direct hits. You don't "troll" in a way that people can feel is in any way obvious. You not only have to know, but often befriend your enemy, only to subtly influence their perspective and slowly shift narratives over time.

It makes no sense at all to assume a new account is a troll account, by pure numbers alone. A member who does this will be found out swiftly, and if they try it repeatedly surely the admin will be competent enough to make it not worth their while. It happens, but the patterns you have to look for are much more difficult to see, and not out in the open at all.

I know all of this, because I've setup systems which require gaming for other motives. Mostly cheap advertising. My business is IT related.

Gaming this site is a huge waste of my time. I do suspect it happens, and most are found out and quit, but I also think it would be in some people's interest to put in the true effort required to effectively influence and avoid detection for large periods of time.

@ southpaws,

The way that many companies, particularly stuffy, corporate US firms, go about hiring, totally sucks and they don't know what they are doing by failing to grasp that the individual is the most important element in their organization. They treat people like they are things, numbers, units, and just resumes.

They act like the structures they use define power, when structure should just be a tool for effective organizational behavior and productivity enhancement.

How they go about hiring and treat people at their gate says a whole heck of a lot about who they are and what their corporate culture is all about.

Further, they should well know that oftentimes, the very best candidates are unlikely to be found among the job seeking market, and so they err too on the idea and belief that on-line advertising is the way to find the best people, which it isn't.

Yes, that whole process can be frustrating for them as well, with 100's of applicants' resumes pouring in where it's not possible to receive everyone with a warm and welcoming hand when they attempt to go through the application process.

It's a generally ridiculous process. It wastes countless hours of valuable time, and certainly doesn't send a positive signal to the people who are attempting to offer their services.

There's a much better way to go about it, from both sides.

To simply say, that's just how it's done and if you don't like it, don't even bother trying to get a job with a company, is imho, insulting to the OP who was expressing valid concerns and frustrations with the traditional approach to job seeking.

What I tried to describe, last page, was a way for the individual to reclaim their value, while selectively sorting through and eliminating companies who's approach to hiring and to culture and the value of the individual, is #.

Many companies operate like mini-dictatorships, run by some arrogant SOB. They don't get it, and as such, they deserve to lose their best people to companies who care and who value each person's contribution no matter who they are or where they sit on the "pecking order".

I really need to get my seminar workshop going, because so many people deserve to be liberated from corporate slavery to find companies where they can realize their unique personal and professional goals and aspirations and be highly valued for who they are and what they bring, and by that I'm not simply referring to their credentials or their resume, but other precious gifts and capabilities which will enhance the culture and impact organizational productivity and overall employee satisfaction.

YUOR attitude, in particular, is a big part of the problem out there these days.

What are you, an HR Manager or admin within some uncaring corporate bureaucracy?

HA! It's you who have a thing or two to learn about the whole search and hiring process, because from what I can see, you're operating from the wrong paradigm.

originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
@ southpaws,

YUOR attitude, in particular, is a big part of the problem out there these days.

What are you, an HR Manager or admin within some uncaring corporate bureaucracy?

HA! It's you who have a thing or two to learn about the whole search and hiring process, because from what I can see, you've operating from the wrong paradigm.

You know, I agree with nearly everything you said up to this quoted text.

I own multiple companies, and hire the talent that you're referring to which slips through the corporate dictatorship you so well describe.

You really don't have a clue who I am, or what I do.

originally posted by: southpaws

You really don't have a clue who I am, or what I do.

That doesn't really matter.

In part, and out of fairness, I don't have all the info, but it's that idea of "I'm all that, I'm powerful, influential, don't criticize me, and tow the line" that in many ways forms the type of culture that people can easily be recruited away from.

Have you ever lost people for reasons that to you seemed inexplicable?

Maybe I'm wrong and you're totally caring and love your people and treat them almost like family, but I doubt that I'm wrong. Too much experience.

If I were to engage with you to offer highly targeted, strategic recruitment services to help you attract THE best people in your industry, but asked you to trust my judgement and evaluative skills on who you should meet based on my assessment of the individual's hard and soft skills with an aim at making the best possible corporate culture fit, you would I'm sure demand that I send you their resume first, then try to form a premature decision on the person and whether you'd be willing to meet them (based on a piece of paper), while treating me like one of your employees, then maybe wine about my fee at the end of the process, and hammer me throughout the process, the result of which, the wind would go out of my sails and I would move on to find a better client who really gets it.

Highly effective recruiting is very delicate business, particularly if/when you're dealing with the recruited candidate who isn't entirely unhappy where they are who also happen to be, generally, the very best among the competition.

And no, this isn't a pitch.

I know your type.

For you it's all business, nothing more. That's so out of date now though, and people are waking up to the fact that they can make a move to greener pastures.

One wonders how many of the people you employ spend a portion of their free time job searching, even if they're going about it all wrong by just combing the net for job postings when they should be making a list of the top five competitive firms in the area and then figuring out how to get connected with their hiring manager without jeopardizing their own confidentiality and getting fired for it, which is what a lot of companies do when they find out someone is looking around, instead of getting to the heart of the problem and working to resolve it whenever possible. Although a tiger doesn't tend to change it's stripes, and culture flows from the top down.

"A true gentleman is someone who never hurts another person's feelings unintentionally and unnecessarily."
~ Oscar Wilde, paraphrased

a reply to: southpaws

So all that just to say that you made this profile JUST to respond to this one thread /person?

Odd.

a reply to: tadaman

Not so odd. It's on the front page. People when they sign up have to start somewhere.

It caught his eye, he decided to sign up and post.

I say welcome to the forums.

We have to honor people's right to self expression even if their comment might be a little bit dickish.

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

I agree with that. He still has to hold water.

He can agree or not, be nice or not. The meat of it is his attacking the OP rather than offering constructive criticism as he later tried to sell it.

His advice was to open a business. Sell her house and everything. She has a kid....she could have it taken away if she did that.

Its not like she can sell her Camaro and live out of a backpack while she sleeps on the small counter of the store she just opened.

He called the OP a liar. How so?
He said she was reaching for sympathy. So? Also how?

I call BS.

It looks like a drive by trolling. Probably is. At best he is just stroking it right now.

a reply to: tadaman

But, but, he's (or she's) a very important businessperson with multiple businesses and numerous employees!!

Surely he's right that the OP should give up trying to find a job with a company, sell it all, and start up a business of his/her own? No?

a reply to: tadaman

Are you suggesting that he was nothing but an ill-intentioned troll who's desire was to screw up the OP's life, by selling everything they have to try a startup and isn't the OP raising a child at the same time?

I doubt that, but the internet is full of just such people, for them they think it's funny I guess, but that's not the impression I have regarding this poster.

And if they're an ATS oldtimer who was once banned, well hey doesn't everyone deserve a second chance?

The trolls can be trolled, and a double bind is always placed upon one's own self and by one's own hand.

I hope to have struck a chord myself, and what's funny is that I really do know what I am talking about, since I've made recruiting my livelihood (don't ask me how) as a professional recruiter for over 30 years now (I started when I was 18 with a little telemarketing experience).

It's actually comical, the degree to which so few GET IT, or understand the right paradigm that keeps the best interests of both parties in mind, and I am prepared to drive my clients and anyone who will listen to me, crazy, with the truth at the heart of the matter that sets people free for the sake of freedom, to be happier and more productive and to live and lead happier lives in ever greener pastures (maybe it's the Christian in me, as I'm a double PK, which only means that I'm the Prodigal Son attempting to make a return journey!).

I like when the bitchy receptionist answers the phone, and without even speaking to the VP or the Manager or the President, I can safely mark down an R (for raid) beside that companys name and be proven right. The poor dears work hard and they don't know any better, but it's kinda like an HR manager who tries to retain territory and power and prestige when she or he is the very one who's supposed to be in charge of things like organizational behavior modification and the like. It's hilarious!

Many will walk out of my future seminars or workshops, while others will lean forward in their seats taking notes! It'll be a riot, and since by then I'll be retired as an active duty Headhunter, it won't matter what they might think, unless they do the hard work of some very serious self reflection as to what the nature of organizational Civility might entail, and how powerful it could be, even as a recruiting tool in the midst of a war for talent.

I'll start it out at a reasonable price, but it's worthy a LOT of money to them, and freedom for the worker to work wherever he or she pleases, quite literally at the drop of their own employer's hat.

People need the tools to become their own best headhunters, perhaps even some among those who work for southpaws here.

The grip of corporate dictatorship, while still strong, is beginning to loosen and I'd sure like to do my part in helping that process along.

This doesn't mean that we all have to be perfect saints either. We have our flaws, but there's so little awareness for the human heart and soul in modern corporate culture. Losers. Lose all their best people is what they will and that's a severe loss and blow to any company, when whole batches of them do decide to sell everything they own to go out and form their own business with the aim of hiring likeminded people in a highly advanced corporate culture built on trust, not as a marketing tool, but as a first cause in everything they do.

The idea of working FOR "the man" is out, as is the idea of "these are MY workers, my slaves, my things" and their job is to make me money, and to get the lion's share of the glory in the process. Pathetic!

Who cares who someone thinks they are. If they are not fundamentally a Civilized gentleman, then where are they, and oh what a fall they had and will have, even if they end up with heaps of cash and lots of nice things.

They deserve to be mocked in the best possible way for the sake of one and all. Their paradigm sucks. It's built on a faulty premise, and no one enjoys working for those types of companies any more, who have no loyalty to the employee either, so they can move over to a better company, just like that, maybe even precipitate mass exoduses.

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

You sir.

You must be very good at what you do. I couldnt agree more with what you said.

What most rung true for me was the part about how people will dedicate energy to leaving instead of their job or company.

I will tell you that after leaving a job as a prized employee who was a top earner, top problem solver and comapny cool aid spokesperson, I left because of what you explained.

The job I accepted yesterday, I chose because they ranked as one of the top places to work in NYC.

The feel was right. Then I looked at possible earnings and benefits.

I also agree with what you said about being your own head hunter. I realistically shouldnt have gotten the job according to archaic hiring practices and standards.

I got it because they are a good team that knew what they wanted. I was also able to sell myself as a resource to that mission since a role was there for me to fill that was defined as being more than just another cog in a money machine.

They got me personally invested in their dream. All it took was them making room for mine. As a person, not a cliche corporate employee from the 80s.

Have a good one.
Hold it down.

a reply to: tadaman

I only read the first four paragraphs (reading the rest in a moment) and what struck me, was what an absolutely wonderful and valuable addition you will be with your new team, and, what a terrible loss and blow that was to your past employer and the people left behind. Pray for them, stay friends with them, and help some of them get up the courage to also move on, and when two or three end up leaving, there's the mass exodus, while your past employer commands HR to post jobs on the Internet, and they'll hire the best of what comes to them. The best of the unhappy, the best of the un or underemployed (not that that's always a bad thing) and the best of the pseudoqualified - while your new employer enjoys the almost priceless and incaculable benefit of being a growing magnet for people such as yourself.

It's both a triumphant celebration and a very tragic comedy.

All this said, I applaud the individual who knows that they can effect and realize change and transformation where they are and heroically remains there to take a stand for themselves and for their fellow colleagues and friends, and when they do that enough times, either change and transformation WILL happen, or, they'll be fired and another internet job posting placed! LOL!

It's almost like a type of human alchemy of sorts (I'm reminded of an hour glass).

The prevailing corporate power-structure nonsense paradigm is wearing very thin and its time is running out.


"Let my people GO!" (said like Moses to the Pharaoh)


It's also possible that your leaving will form the basis of the needed lessons learned by your past employer, when you're not there anymore at the cooler. How sad for them.

Congratulations on your new job, more of a collaborative effort in pursuit of a dream, filled and overflowing with passion, enthusiasm, and ever-increasing challenges and problems met head on with gusto, even a sense of fun! (who woulda thought?).

All the very best!

Ankh

For anyone who's interested, the methodology that I offered up on the last page is what many of us Headhunters, particularly those of us of the Lefkowitz, Burn (poor man died of a coc aine overdose after a training in Toronto) and Finkel schools of teaching, call

MPC Marketing. MPC for "most placeable candidate".

The only difference being is that the MPC is YOU, whoever you are, dear reader, who's talented, but constrained and unhappy and unfulfilled where you are with your present employer.

It lends itself well to anyone with a particular skillset that's in demand within any particular discipline and industry sector.

What's nice about the USA (I'm Canadian eh), is that, for those with the courage and the audacity, who aren't happy where they work or are living, is that you can use this method to also facilitate a paid relocation across the country.

Therefore, before executing your search and contacting people with companies in the same urban centre, you may want to talk to your wife and kids first with a map of the USA on the wall, and with Google at your fingertips to check out the scene in different settings, stick a pin in it, and start from there. One benefit of that is the ability to retain confidentiality in your current locale because most industries are rather tightly knit communities and it's possible for word to slip out while being your own headhunter. Therefore, ask everyone you speak with to retain the utmost confidentiality about you and your inquiry and not to make any reference checks without your prior approval.

Your present employer won't know what hit them until you tender your resignation - "What?! What do you MEAN you're 'moving to Miami Florida'"?!!!

Build your careers and make the world your oyster as it's pearl in formation.

How hard is it, after all, to speak to the key hiring managers in 10 or 20 firms?

Maybe check their website for their career postings, but don't let that stop you if you don't see the right opening.

Companies and hiring authorities can, for the most part, hire whoever they want, when that person shows up at their door as if by magic, no job posting or requisition needed.

And if they can only think in terms of filling boxes, then that's not the company you're wanting anyway!

I'm happy to have been of some help and to make use of my experience and knowledge base to liberate people as to the possibilities.

You are under no obligations whatsoever. It's a free exchange and you are free to work wherever and for whoever you choose.

YOU, not the Corporation, is King. You are the gold.

Some may try to hire you, and you will turn them down to their dismay, then they'll offer more and you'll turn that down too, and take perhaps even much less somewhere else.

F 'em! Be free!

But there's no need to quit until you've locked up your new job, may it be a dream job or springboard you in that direction.

Oh how I love the sense of irony and paradigm shifting potential in this kind of thought process and consideration.

I hope you're already smiling, even at the prospect of seeing your boss's face when you resign out of the blue, unexpectedly, your new job already signed, sealed and delivered in spades.

Last piece of advice. Never, ever take a counter offer. That's a mistake. You play that game, you're little more than a whore and a conman, don't let it happen. If on resigning, for all the right reasons, stop them from trying to lead you down that path however tempting it might be. And if you do take the counter offer to stay, you deserve that place, but you did sell out and had to take a figurative gun to your employer's head to get what you already deserved. Getting into that kind of discussion and then taking a counter offer after already accepting another job is a slimeball move, and it rarely works out for the best. Don't let fear of change for the comfort of the known dissuade you from honoring your own best interests, and don't sell out for money.

Happy hunting!

AnkhMorpork
Senior Recruitment Consultant aka Headhunter

a reply to: mblahnikluver

I haven't gone through the whole thread, but there does seem to be a lot of hate directed toward you. That's too bad, because in your OP, just about everything you said is true.

Anywayz, here is something that may help. The best way, if you're interested, is to get into some kind of Gov't job, or University job. Both of these types of jobs are high paying with tons of benefits, and I'm pretty sure with the strong unions, even if you shoot your boss, you can grieve it through the Union and win your job back.

So how do I get that damn job? This is how:

Fire off resumes to every branch of Gov't, (I would stick with State or Federal Gov't), and University in your area. Then follow up with a phone call asking for a meeting to discuss what you should be doing to get into government or the university for work in your field. People love giving advice, they just don't want to be asked, can I have a job? You will learn a thing or two that could result in some contract work, that might lead to a mat leave replacement and ultimately to be able to apply for a FT job. You see, once you're there, people get to know you and are more likely to think of you when more work, or full time work comes up. This may take some time to get in FT, but it does work. I know more than a few people who have done this, and it has worked out for them just fine. Some folks took over 2 years to get in FT,while at the same time working part time for the Gov't or university. Other folks got in in a few months after doing some part time or contract work. One woman I know took a job that was only 3 days a week. You see, not many people will take a job that is only 2 or 3 days a week so your competition is way down here, but that turned into a FT job after only 6 months.

Good luck to you.

a reply to: mblahnikluver

I understand completely. Crap jobs are hard to get and good jobs are nearly impossible to find.

a reply to: mblahnikluver

You may or may not remember me....but I saw your post and I feel for you. I know you don't, but don't listen to Schuyler and the other spazzes

Well I WAS going to give advice but here you are....with an offer

Good for you!