Baddogma's Other Meta Cafe- Polite Discussions About Scientific Mysticism and General Weirdness

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

I actually believe it's because the sun governs the day, you know taking care of house, garden, cooking, feeding etc, women-folk-stuff
And the men go out at night to raid and burn and "liberate" the livestock from the clan next door.

Just guessing.

[aside]

Weird. I have a very needy younger half sister who does not get the idea of time zones and work... uh.... what??

We are just starting to communicate. But it is good, even if we misinterpreted each other’s words. It keeps us honest (I cannot stop loving my sister! Even if we haven’t talked to each other directly in over a decade (she had a kid, me doing my first decade in a job in a city I had only visited and getting those friends that I needed then. Er, that are still my friends now! Kinda why I love this place!)

The reconnecting aspect is important to your relationships.

And I have changed yet again. Still quick to anger but a bit more forgiving to everyone else (unless the dumb bastid is close enough for me to kick him and does nothing to move away.... grrrrr).

A bit mellower and forgiving but a also a bit more less lenient on [your] excuses.

This is cool (except the babysitting a drunk sibling on the phone who only focuses on a way to not be accountable for their bad decisions and letting them drink too much...

Huh?

Oh, Happy Nee Year, you MetaCaferterians’n

🔭

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Happy New Year is what I typed...

Friggen autocorrect stuff (I could edit it but, who cares?)

Bastids...

a reply to: Peeple

That only fits a fairly modern paradigm though. Up to at least 10,000 years ago there is no evidence to suggest such confinement of gender roles. Women and men, childbirth excepted, did pretty much the same things. Men and women hunted. Men and women gathered. Keeping women segregated, even isolated, from the main group within the domicile in order to count the days (and preserve virginity to ensure paternity and maintain the woman's "value") is a thoroughly patriachal invention. But that given, you've probably guessed on the nose, the patriarchal structures of church and nobility drawing the Sun and the Moon into the conspiracy to keep women in the place men want them to be, helpless and dependent doing all the jobs that they don't want to do, or feel they are better than.



Silly men with their secret societies trying to pretend that what they are doing is all important and stuff, they've really #ed up the world good and proper.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

But the official story is it was a sun goddess "Sunna" who drove the shiny chariot and that's so obviously a Roman appropriation ... I keep mine.
It's not like we'll ever know what they thought 3 000 years ago so 10 000 is fair game for fantasy.

Also your picture with "segregated, ... virginity..." is very far from what I had in mind. The role was more a seer and ... a bit like it is today "Darling I want that cow Alwina in that village at the lake has, will you go get it for me?"
We know from the Romans they used their boobs as source of inspiration during battle for their warriors, so ... that's not something a virgin does.

a reply to: Peeple

No, the Goddess riding her chariot across the skies is pre-Roman, they appropriated it from the metal workers to some extent when they industrialised the process though. It was the Vestal Virgins who, to prove their chastity, brought her into Rome.

And there was much rejoicing.

Have you read what the Romans did to Vestal Virgins if they broke their vow of chastity? It was pretty brutal.



We don't really need to know what they thought to know what they did, what they ate and how that translates to skeletal development. The bones of women take a dramatic and almost crippling turn around the same time we got all domesticated and grinding one thing or another day in and day out, chained bare-foot and pregnant to the kitchen sink.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

It was all forests! Where would they've ever seen a chariot, let alone used one, there was no road no nothing before the Romans, just very dense woods, that would've been the most useless invention ever.
Where would they've gone with it? The "barbaric" Germans resisted trade and city building a long time even after the Romans. That doesn't make sense!
And I'm not arguing against that probably nothing sucked more than being the lowest end of the social stratification and female, but there was also nothing better than being on the upper end and a woman, before the Romans.
The fact that the female bones show less animal proteine isn't necessarily a sign of suppression but can also be read as "pure for spiritual practices"... before the Romans.
And the vestal virgins are an attempt at keeping them save from desecration but from the Roman males not that the same rules must have applied to intercourse with their own kin which was more likely "magical" a holy act of fertility worship before, the Romans.
...just speculatively based on the fact that all the most important deities were female, it seems absurd to assume they wouldn't have been mostly attended to by women and given them more "favours".

a reply to: Peeple

Haha...you're kidding me right? When were wheeled vehicles invented? You're too funny! The steppe, where wheeled vehicles were first developed are less wooded of course.

Female bones don't just show a lack of protein, they show deformities on the toes, back and shoulders, the kind of wear and tear that comes from kneeling while grinding grains with a quern or similar.

The goddess of the metal workers was attended to by castrated males, the Romans weren't too comfortable with that, but as you say, quite happy to marry their siblings. I was reading the other day that one in five marriages in Rome was between siblings - I think it explains the weakening of the chin. And the insanity generally. I mean, who thinks it's entertaining to watch people getting ripped apart by lions - only madmen. Incest, and probably lead poisoning, is probably want led to the fall of Rome more than anything else.

Probably.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

There's no chariot in Germany before the Romans. Just because it's all far in the past doesn't mean there weren't regional differences when what invention appeared where.
I'm sorry it's a German source but it describes how it was the women who got all the education, went to travel long ways, were responsible for technology transfer between settlements of large areas and were held in high regards and buried richly. While the men did the physical work.
So much so that archeologists aren't even sure anymore if it wasn't a more matriarchal society.
Between Bavaria and Prague, of course not implying it was the same everywhere else, but since we got here via die Sunna...

And I will come back to some Roman bashing after I read SPQR by Beard, I'm right now in India with Keay, then Marco Polo fiction with Gary Jennings, and then the Romans, so... give me a week or so

a reply to: Peeple

Awe totally was gone but.. Happy Birthday Peeps!

a reply to: Reverbs

It was cool, had a little party, all by myseee-eh-eeeelf. But it's already 11 days ago. Where've you been? What's happening in Reverbworld?

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

I gave you a star. Totally no human relationship expert, but I believe I heard it's okay to set boundaries especially if you want it to last.

a reply to: Peeple

Sorry, yes, I forgot that we were just talking about Germany. Wheeled vehicles, the Ox-driven cart for example, had been around for some time but the chariot was much later and you're probably right, didn't get to Germany until the Romans brought it. But, if I remember my Nazi mythology correctly, weren't the Romans repelled by the German "Teutons"? I thought that the Romans, with their sports-model carts, weren't able to penetrate the forests and it's guerilla fighters.

Either way, the cart is significant, symbolically, I presume because of the wheel representing the turning of the day/time. And since the Magna Marta is always flanked by two lions (morning and evening star?), then she is the day light hours...so there you go, you're right again.

I think a lot depends on who we're talking about. Elites behave differently. I think that matrilineal societies were the norm in many places, particularly the Celtic world, but we also know that there were "High" and "Low" Celts. Just because a woman was given a high status burial doesn't mean that all women were of high status (beyond the remits of their own domicile). I can't read the article though, your intelligence and learning once again far exceeds my own and that language barrier stumps me. I could read "4000 year" and "Frau". Is that 4,000 years ago or 4,000 BC - hmm, most likely the former - but either way, they are clearly Bronze workers. Recent findings suggest that like the Romans, the Bronze metal working "elite" married incestuously, keeping them genetically seperate from the worker-bees that they governed or supplied with metal-ware.

What was the basis of the economy circa 2000 BC (between Bavaria and Prague)? Aboriculture and maybe pig domestication?

I look forward to your Roman bashing.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Yes it is 4 000 years ago, not bc. And I don't know probably the secret ingredients for sausages...lol
I was quite sure you think I'm stupid and insane, so thank you for relieving me of my worries.

With regards to the status of women: is that an English thing? After WWII Germany was rebuilt by women and I grew up being used to women running the show, with stories of "Trümmerfrauen" and such, like the saying "behind every strong man stands a strong woman". So in my mind I never quite looked at it as suppression but just different focus of interest, men are more concerned with represantation, projection of status etc but women are and always have been what keeps the "machine" running.
Like I grew up in the alps, Chiemsee and it's mostly agricultural but traditionally medium sized farms and up they always had a multitude of "Knechte and Mägde" doing the work, the husband does the dirty work and politics and the Mrs mostly makes sure everybody else is working as they're supposed to, including the husband.
Is that different in England? More feudal, maybe?

Also Gary Jennings was a really great writer! He just sucks you in, not necessarily pc a few shocking moments, but just great adventures! Aztec was just awesome, I don't think the sequel was the right idea, but The Journeyer is also just wonderful.

a reply to: Peeple

Haha well.. work, beer, walk, home...
divinity 2 original sin
Pillars of eternity
Xcom2

Walk, work, put wood on the fire.. put too much wood on the fire ..pizza cooking too fast.. gay guys hitting on me. Boss drinks beers with me. Girl talk. walk, home, YouTube videos..

I dont have a lot of energy for creative thought or freewill or whatever.

I'm just tired.
Mentally.
I dont want to use energy to talk.
But I want to talk.
But yea.

In other words I'm boring af.

My mom didn't even talk to me from Thanksgiving to Christmas to this year now.. my dad's a hermit. My sister is in Chicago my brothers are in Greece and Japan or some #.

I'm the quiet one so if I'm trying to feel family and no one else does any thing.... what?

So I'm just blah. But then I've been having deep baddass conversations, and deep thought bonding interactions with lots of people I work with. And seeing people I'm teaching to cook getting better is kinda priceless. And something I'm proud of about me right now is something I've always thought was true about myself subjectively... people are saying I'm so non judgemental and then we discuss the truth of their lives and they actually.. I'm actually helping in a big way by being this character I am. I reject my own thoughts about it all the time.. that I'm so non judgemental and whatever umm thoughtful.. that I make people feel safe and help as kind of a shaman or older brother or something. I reject it because it's my ego vision of my ideal self. It feels fueled by hubris.
Especially since I'm such a flawed human being.

And yet people feel this way that I'm really a helpful wonderful person.
And meanwhile I'm feeling like I'm struggling to care about anything.

Its incongruent.

That's Revernsy Life at the moment.

a reply to: Reverbs

Thank you for sharing. Hugs! It will get better someday.
I was getting really frustrated and angry, had to force myself to some autogenous training and it was a small miracle.
You're there for people, that's lovely, no matter how you feel.
We're all struggling. But you totally got this!

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

...and I watched democracy now interview with Timothy Snyder (?) historian with focus on fascism, nothing we haven't talked about yet, which is what made it so weird, at the end he says: "they(Capitol mob) didn't look very well"
He meant health-wise. So we're totally not the only ones thinking there's a physical issue also playing a part.
And apparently I'm also not the only one who noticed it got a bit quiet in ATS, ... I don't know I keep thinking they can't be that stupid, but ... we'll see
2 days, signal had a spike in users...

a reply to: Peeple

In Britain during both world wars, the women picked up the slack, did all the jobs that men had done before they all went off to war and enjoyed all sorts of new freedoms as a result. When the men returned they were expected to just scuttle off back to the housework and child-care, but obviously not all the men came back and some came back the worse for wear. I suppose the major different during the war (second) between the UK and Germany, is that you had forced labour to utilise and therefore the women could stay in the home and be the domestic goddesses that Hitler envisioned, not get their hands dirty or indeed to know the freedom of earning a living wage, of not being dependent on a man for income and support, or only being able to work from home doing very badly paid piece work, such as weaving, lace or dress-making or the old fall-back, other people's laundry. It's more to do with social conventions and morality than it is status. A women's place was in the home, married and raising children. Which is great if that is what you want, and I suppose the majority did - until they didn't. And also sometimes it doesn't work out as you planned. It was hard to get out of that situation if things went bad and you were unlikely to gain custody of your children if you did.

I'm imagine you as a little "Heidi" now, skipping through the mountains picking eidlewiess (spelling?)...but I am sure that rurally it would have been much the same here, different but similar in terms of extended families with a strong matriarch holding it all together. My family were migrants of the industrial revolution, one quarter English farm workers and three-quarters Welsh miners and metal-workers all of whom converged on Birmingham leaving all ties to family behind by the mid 1800s. So not so much feudal as it was nuclear-familised. I know that the farm worker was illiterate, the metal-workers could probably read and write, the son of a miner might due to mission school but his parents probably would not. Hard to keep in touch from a distance without the written word. I think there are a lot of working class families like mine that just scattered to the four winds in the 19th century. My upbringing was very different, new estate - no grandparents to be seen usually. Just uniform blocks of Mum, Dad and two-point-four kids.

I haven't heard of Jennings. I'm off reading at the moment - book reading, I'm doing more news and current affairs, journals and the sort - just don't have the attention span for books.

I watched the interview Snyder did with Martin Bashir - I don't think it is the same one you are referring to though, it was recorded before whole storming-thing. It was uncomfortable listening, I hadn't thought of it as bluntly as he puts it - the whole election fraud as the "Big Lie" really helped draw things into perspective for me.

originally posted by: Reverbs
I reject it because it's my ego vision of my ideal self. It feels fueled by hubris.
Especially since I'm such a flawed human being.

It is okay to acknowledge, and feel pride for accomplishing something you set out to achieve - your ego vision of your ideal self. You can give yourself a pat on the back and wink when you look at yourself in the mirror - but then you have to acknowledge that being that "self" changes everything.



You just need a new vision of "self" to move towards, and that will come after you get over your case of imposter syndrome. You can be both wonderful and helpful while not really caring. I should know You're doing okay, just don't give it all away, leave some for yourself.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Standing on the shoulders of giants(-ettes) forever grateful.

Anyhoo another thing he said:

It is impossible to inherit from someone who is still around. Seizing Trump’s big lie might appear to be a gesture of support. In fact it expresses a wish for his political death. Transforming the myth from one about Trump to one about the nation will be easier when he is out of the way.

link
makes me almost kind of feel sorry for the Donnie, I really don't think he's the planing type. And with Q it's almost too obvious there's someone stirring the pot in the background. Someone like Bannon, but smarter and better organised and connected. Less apocalyptic more fascist.
Either way you can count on the Donnie not living longer than perhaps a year from now on.
And the next front-puppet will get installed, carefully guided this time but never introduced to the secret club of masters he serves.
Because that's the lesson they learned from Hitler. Never pin your success on the cover. You got more options if you keep the face exchangeable.
And that's I believe what we're seeing here.



I know "outrageous! what a horrible thing to say!" but think about it: the Democrats will want him to be out of the way, both sides of the Republicans will want him out of the way and whoever is behind Q will want him out of the way.

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.

a reply to: Peeple

I've already read my free-limit at the NY Times

I can't say I feel sorry for the soon to be ex-Mr President Trump. I don't think he is a planner but I do think he is a schemer, a chancer and an opportunist. He knows how to make a deal, he knows how to get things done through, as Snyder put it, by sheer stubbornness and in some cases coercive persistence.

Snyder thinks he "will be back" in some form or other, perhaps in the 2024 run, possibly as a contending third option - or in some other capacity, the mentor of a younger, fitter apprentice maybe, but he will be back. I think in stopping him more permanently they could risk martyring him for the "cause".

I don't know about the Q side of things. It's an odd scenario, someone who has publically be shown to believe that sexually assaulting women is okay being heralded as the messiah of the moral high-ground. Paedophila has a undeniable knee-jerk factor. It gets people all over-emotional and not thinking straight. That seems to be the whole point. It distracts. We see in the Epstein case, globally sex traffiking is a HUGE problem and HUGELY lucrative for those engaged in it. Epstein was a "high-end" receiver as well as the "middle-end" provider but fundamentally the crime that he was gulity of, was sex trafficking, that some of the girls he trafficked were underage is incidental - an additional charge on a list of trafficking charges. All the focus on him being a kiddie-fiddler removes attention from what seems to have been a pivotal role in international sex trafficking, turns it into something emotive and inconceivable. Which it is. Children are not trafficked in anywhere the same numbers as young, poor women are. Children remain much more likely to be abused within their own homes by someone they know. Thousands of young women on the otherhand are trafficked every year. So my guess is that Q has something to do with sex trafficking. Romania seems to be a hub of all that at the moment, but organised crime, or at the least, state sanctioned organised crime. And Trump has considerable experience of that too, construction in New York at the time he was constructing was owned by organised criminals, he wouldn't have got the Tower built without knowing who's palm needed crossing with silver - so...