The Resistance to Self- Relience

a reply to: Groot You need to change the country, mate. Ethiopia would be the best in my opinion, if you can fit. Or try some of the junctions of the Amazon. I know it sounds harsh, but the reality is that there is not many safe places anymore. I know some people with European out of grid experience, but it's not smart to stick around with the possible conflict coming. The one battle front is going to be exactly Turkey-Lithuania. For that reason, I advice you elsewhere. GL

a reply to: Groot

The Resistance to Self- Relience. - it will get snuffed out when the numbers of people who indepedant of the system grows to a point where the 'authorites' feel their control over the people is being threathened.

For as long as its only tiny group of nutcases, therefore potential terrorits, then they wont worry too much because with all their modern space based high tech suvileance gear, they are easy to find and round up and dissappear.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

What happens if you sell them enough to cover the $35 connection fee?

I was just thinking about that before I read your comment so I looked at my bill, the monthly charge is $32.21.

I'm not sure what I could sell a kilowatt hour to the electric company for, but I would think that it would be far less than how much they sell a KWh to me. If I add in the taxes and surcharges, a KWh costs me between 17 and 18 cents, but just the energy use fee it would be around 7 cents/KWh. That being the retail cost to me, I imagine they buy at a wholesale rate of less than 7 cents per KWh, but let's say it is 7 cents. Whatever it is though, I can't establish my own price for a KWh.

So if I'm forced to sell them any excess energy I produce at 7 cents per KWh, I'd need to produce an extra 460 KWh per month to cover the monthly fee. Last month I used 538 KWhs, so I need to produce around 1,000 KWhs to power my home and pay off the monthly fee. So not only does the local electric company get cheap extra energy from my system, but the monthly fee makes it cost free for them if I can over produce that much energy to feed back into the grid.

Based on all that I would assume that the best I could do is get a bill for the monthly charge of $32 or maybe a little less on a good month by subtracting any income from the buy back.

ETA: Because those greedy SOBs have made their customers use the new digital meters, they have an itchy finger on the shut-off command key down at the office. I can't get behind a month without them shutting me off and then charging a reconnect fee from pushing a button on a keyboard. Owing an outstanding bill would be the way to get them to shut off the connection and stop charging the monthly fee. But at that point the township could condemn the property as a residence for not having the hook-up, regardless of your ability to produce enough energy to power everything on your property. A recreational property would be different, but they limit the amount of time you can "camp out" on your own private recreational property (here it is two weeks per year, not enough time to do more than firearm deer season).

They got you at every turn if you obey the laws and force you to pay no matter what loop hole you try to use.

a reply to: Groot

To become free from the electrical grid,

Why not stay "On-Grid" or at least the electric grid, take advantage of Earth-Shelter practices, set up solar panels and sell the excess back to the grid? Should be enough savings to at least pay the electric bill and maybe some of your property tax as well. I've been studying the plans of Performance Building Systems LLC at www.earthshelter.com... They advertise framing kits for steel mesh reinforced concrete shells that anyone with a modicum of metal working skills can assemble.
Google's Sketchup autocad program has one of Performance Building System's plans in 3D format that has all the elements the company advertise. You can break up the plan and rearrange the building elements into any plan you want. When you're ready to build, the company will develop a kit from your plan. Tons more Earth Shelter companies out there;
Green Magic Homes, Tennessee (precast fiberglass elements) - www.greenmagichomes.com...

Here's an interesting design that doesn't require any additional heating equipment, designed for Montana' cold climate
www.goodshomedesign.com...

maintains a 66° to 74° temperature year-round ... In summer, solar heat radiates in, falls on internal surfaces, and is absorbed into the surrounding soil. The umbrella traps heat in the dry soil until winter, when it migrates back into the house. Adding convection-driven earth tubes would modify the internal temperature by conveying outside air in.

Here are plans to build Earthbag dome homes - www.ecosnippets.com...
...not sure I could get a permit for one of these...unless I go "off grid"...damn

My home state recently passed a new law where anyone with solar panels that provides energy back to the grid won't get paid for it.


Using the grid as a battery (provide extra power during the day and sell to the grid, use grid power at night) is no longer an option.
Such a shame.
I'd love to go off grid, but I'm still working on figuring out where to live- let alone how to live there.

Looking for ideas on how to store power for night/dark days lately, but I suspect I just need to work out needing less power.

I have a cabin in Michigan without power in a National Forest and every couple of years an electric questioner shows up in the mail. I always pitch it power lines are about 3 miles away and I don't expect them in my lifetime.

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

This is why I escaped the nanny state north/northeastern US with high tax, fees, permits, intrusive government, unecessary government rules and high percentage of rude nosy people jelous anyone not sharing the herd mentality.

Did that back in 79' IMO it's much deteriorated since then.

I've lived Texas, Georgia and Alabama and have experienced none of the issues described. One caveat is I've always purchased land/housing far outside any major metropolitan areas.

40 acres very rural at $260 annual property tax is absolutely low .gov footprint.

Only inspection is septic system for obvious public health reasons otherwise I am free to build anything I want, however I want to.

There are no requirements from government to hook up utilities nor taxes for not doing so.

One proviso is go completely off grid as grid tied solar is charged $10 mo.per/kw capacity for line-set cost recovery.

The work around is RV pad and cover with utility power while you build fully off grid permanent home then sell RV or keep for guest - here I have the freedom and choice to decide what's best for my needs rather than some beauracracy deciding what's best for them.

You know, if I wanted to get shut off, but not owe them any thing, I could let the bill go until it is shut off, then pay the bill but not a reconnect fee. Now I'd be square with their billing department, but disconnected.

At that point I would think that they could no longer charge a $32 monthly fee as it is not connected. Of course they'd take the meter out, or at least they used to do that. Not sure if they would report you to the officials for being shut off, they might be obligated to, who knows.

a reply to: Phoenix

Cool, sounds like that is the way to go, or just break the laws if you can.

a reply to: Groot

Check this out: Children Now Face Fines and Arrest If They Don't Get Permit to Mow Grass for Money

Local officials and area law services have reportedly warned area teens that without a business license issued by the city, which costs $110, they are in violation of a city ordinance, thus violating the law, if they attempt to cut grass without a license. Read more at thefreethoughtproject.com...

a reply to: Groot

1 thing to think about: Ive talked with many in the past that is "gonna buy some land far away and live where no one can find me". If you buy it...there will be some tax on it yearly, or even paid ahead for say 10 years even...there will be a record of you.

Head for the hills...prob deep into government land. DEEEEEEEP and far. But there still will be some cameras or people that saw you heading that way that will be a document of you heading out.

It is really hard to slip away into the night...be on foot, no gasoline to purchase so you cant be seen, or vehicle that can later be identified...pass no people, places, stores or outpost cameras that film you passing by. To just DISAPPEAR..

With all the above...all one can do is plan, take nothing, leave everything, purchase nothing along the way, leave no sign of yourself at any station, store, building road-rest stop....nothing. Nowhere.

Good luck....**

**There is a good free downloadable book by radical Abbie Hoffman from the '60's that really has a lot about disappearing in it called "STEAL THIS BOOK"....

*(Please DONT steal it though!!)

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

So it is possible to drop that down to $0.00. Sure they will buy the kwh at a lower price than they sell it but it is surplus anyway.

I just think the whole off-the-grid thing is a bit of a first world rebel without a cause thing.

Back during WWI , self-sustainability was encouraged.

Once President Wilson determined the United States would enter World War I, his administration launched a massive campaign promoting patriotism. Among other things, it encouraged Americans to help feed the troops by conserving food at home. Meat and white bread were among the foods targeted for reduced consumption via designated "meatless" and "wheatless" days. In addition, city residents were encouraged to raise gardens and chickens in their backyards.

In the U.S., some western states have counties that do not have building codes outside of incorporated towns. some only mandate a septic system that passes code inspection.

The easiest method to bypass regulations altogether here is when they do not apply to 'temporary/mobile' buildings. If you can pass off your site as a hunting lodge, you can sometimes escape from all requirements including electricity.

If you have looked at "tiny houses", you probably noticed that most of them are built on trailers. They are not travel trailers; no one can ride in them when they are being moved. But they can be moved every x number of days, and so avoid the "permanent abode" designation.

In fact, there are landlords that make extra income by allowing tiny homes to park "temporarily" on their property. Sometimes with or without a hookup to an electrical meter. There is a population of tiny house dwellers who putter around from one location to the next, staying outside the scope of bureaucracy. Some of them are probably even 'on the lam.'