Greatest Commandment

a reply to: infolurker

whether fatally or not

Why do you lie? He cursed them and was complicit along with the demiurge
Your 200 odd apologia is verbosity and adds no substance, the text is clear

2 Kings 2:24

He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: infolurker

whether fatally or not

Why do you lie? He cursed them and was complicit along with the demiurge
Your 200 odd apologia is verbosity and adds no substance, the text is clear

2 Kings 2:24

He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

the Hebrew word is Baqa`

Definition
to split, cleave, break open, divide, break through, rip up, break up, tear


You can assume what you wish but that is not what it says.

The same word is used in 2 kings 25:4

And the city was broken up (Baqa`) , and all the men of war fled by night by the way of the gate between two walls, which is by the king's garden: (now the Chaldees were against the city round about and the king went the way toward the plain.

Again in 2 Kings 3:26

26 And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through (Baqa`) even unto the king of Edom: but they could not.

You will believe what you wish but that doesn't make it so. The word used can also mean broke up, broke through, or ripped up on some youth there.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

just good advice...

love and praise me or burn forever, that's a threat

a reply to: randyvs

Originally posted by randyvs
But he does say, " if you've seen me you've seen the Father"

Originally posted by Joecroft
So do you believe in that verse, that Jesus was claiming to be God…?

Originally posted by randyvs
I believe that is exactly what he had in mind.
..
..

But we've come full circle, back to your original analogy…here below…

Originally posted by randyvs
My spirit and my son are both a part of me.
Yet I am one.

My Reply…


But your son wouldn't claim to be you…

And you wouldn't claim to be your son…

Bad analogy…




- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Alright I hope this helps, it's short.

a reply to: randyvs

Originally posted
Alright I hope this helps, it's short.

According to the Trinity God manifests as the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit, and all three are one…

But even if the Trinity is true for argument sake, what you stated in your analogy still doesn’t quite fit…because…

Although your son is a part of you; You’re not your son; I mean, you can’t magically manifest one minute as your son, and then back to yourself again…and claim that you are one, in a Trinitarian sense…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Okay it doesn't quite fit, but it was true.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: randyvs

Originally posted randyvs
I don't recall Jesus claiming to be his Father either.

Neither do I…

But Christians believe Jesus is God…

Go figure…

- JC

Even though clearly Jesus (pbuh) has a God, "The Lord OUR God IS ONE."

I was called primitive mentally for not "understanding" that this doesn't mean Jesus (pbuh) isn't God.

I know it does mean that.

"You have one Father in Heaven."

"OUR Father who is in Heaven."

Our God, his God. His 'Father' our 'Father.'

I will stay primitive if this is primitive!

Reason is the LEAST primitive thing I can think of as a concept.

And there is pure reason in my OP. IMO at least.

I guess it's a "Brave New World" and I am a ''savage."

a reply to: randyvs

Originally posted randyvs
Okay it doesn't quite fit, but it was true

Huh It doesn’t fit…

But oh by the way…it’s still true lol

WTH…???

What’s still true, your analogy or the Trinity…?


I have issue with both, but I was originally only addressing your analogy…


- JC

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Originally posted by Disturbinatti
Even though clearly Jesus (pbuh) has a God, "The Lord OUR God IS ONE."

I was called primitive mentally for not "understanding" that this doesn't mean Jesus (pbuh) isn't God.

That’s because they believe God can manifest from the Son in one sense and then back to the Father the next…

It’s full of loopholes…IMO

My overall view is that everyone is one with the father spiritually but no one person or individual, is God the Father…I believe Jesus had this same understanding….

The problem for myself in believing in the Trinity, is that although Jesus will be limited to some extent in human form, he would not be limited in his knowledge, if he was God the Father…For example, when he states, no one knows the hour, not the Son nor the angels etc…He (Jesus) is speaking from limited Knowledge, which shouldn’t be the case if he was God…

Plus, if Jesus just was the Father, he would have just stated it clearly and there would be no need for all these cryptic clues…

The other thing which Christians seems to overlook, is that Jesus asks us to trust in Himself AND to also trust in God…If Jesus was God, even in limited form, he would Just say “trust in me alone…”

Also in regards to the trinity, Jesus states that there are 2 witnesses…and that he testifies for himself! And for the God who sent him…

The obvious question is “where is the Holy Spirit in that equation”…And again if Jesus was God, he would just say there is One witness and not two…

Originally posted by Disturbinatti
I know it does mean that.

"You have one Father in Heaven."
"OUR Father who is in Heaven."

Our God, his God. His 'Father' our 'Father.'

Exactly! Jesus even said, call no man on Earth Father, for you have only One Father, and He is in Heaven…

Originally posted
I guess it's a "Brave New World" and I am a ''savage."

No, you are NOT a savage…you are thinking critically about the text and using logic and reason to discern the truth contained within it…

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Exactly! Jesus even said, call no man on Earth Father, for you have only One Father, and He is in Heaven…

Same premise is sighted in regards to Jesus not calling Mary mother.
He called her woman.

a reply to: randyvs

Originally posted randyvs
Same premise is sighted in regards to Jesus not calling Mary mother.
He called her woman.

No offense intended, but that’s another bad analogy again…

When Jesus said call no man Father, he didn’t mean it in a biological sense, as in call no one your father or mother etc…He meant it in a way that no man should be called GOD on earth…because Father means God in the context of Matthew 23:9

He wasn’t saying, for example, to a son don’t call your father, a father, or don’t call your mother a mother,…the parallel or analogy your drawing is just way off base…

Added to which Jesus said this in John 19:25…below…

John 19:25
25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

Jesus clearly isn’t objecting to referring to “the woman”, as also being “a mother”…

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

You seem to have an odd way with semantics.

a reply to: randyvs


You have an odd way with analogies…

Originally posted by
You seem to have an odd way with semantics.

Then you have understood nothing…


It’s not semantics at all…

The word “Father” in the context of my reply to disturbinati's post, was in relation to the verse Matthew 23:9

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

And Father in that context means God…

By his use of the word “Father”, Jesus was saying call no man on earth God…it had nothing to do with not calling someone your biological father or mother, as is evidenced by John 19:27…


- JC

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
Can Trinitarians say this, do you think?

3 is not 1 no matter how hard you try to make it.

Re trinity;
Religion
10 Bible Passages That Might Be Totally Bogus

listverse.com...

10 The Triune Formula


Known as the “Great Commission,” Matthew 28:19 describes Jesus sending his disciples out to preach the Gospel, instructing them, “Teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” In other words, the three persons in one God. This formula is an important piece of scriptural evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity.

However, the rest of the New Testament refers to baptism only in the name of Jesus. For example, in Acts 2:38, Peter preaches that believers should “repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” This has led some to suspect that the Triune baptismal formula was added later in order to shore up the doctrine of the Trinity, which was rejected by the Arians and other early Christian sects. The fourth-century Church historian Eusebius quotes the text thus: “Go ye into all the world and make disciples of all the Gentiles in My Name.”

However, it’s considered questionable whether Eusebius was quoting verbatim, since he was sometimes prone to paraphrasing. Eusebius also quoted the longer reading elsewhere. Additionally, the Didache, a Christian text believed to have been written in the first century, contains the long form, as do writings by many of the early Church fathers. In light of this evidence, it can’t be said with any certainty that the text was added later, although various Pentecostal groups continue to insist that it was.

1 The Johannine Comma

The highly nuanced doctrine of the Trinity is a bit hazy in the Bible, so some scholars think scribes might have resorted to fabricating the scriptural proof themselves. Notably, they might have added the famous Johannine Comma to I John 5:7, which reads: “And there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.” This is one passage where the case for inauthenticity is virtually a slam dunk.

Only eight extant Greek manuscripts from the 10th century onward contain the Comma. Four of these have the text only on the margin. All appear to be translations of the Latin Vulgate, itself a late text. No Church Father quotes it in debates with anti-Trinitarian heretics like the Arians. It is supposed that the Comma originated as a marginal note in certain Latin versions, eventually making its way into the Vulgate.

The few proponents of the Comma accuse the Arians of suppressing the text. They argue that Bishop Cyprian appears to reference the Comma around AD 250. In the late fourth century, St. Jerome was aware of copies with the Comma and raged against scribes who were deleting it, calling them “unfaithful translators . . . who have kept just the three words water, blood and spirit in this edition, omitting mention of Father, Word and Spirit.”

But is it really believable that the Arians could have expunged so many Greek manuscripts, even with their dominance of the Eastern Roman Empire for half a century? Textual critics think not. Modern critical versions of the Bible now usually omit the Comma. For example, the English Standard Version reads: “For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.”...

***********************************************

Jesus said that he can/will recognize his followers by their unconditional Love!
No vain 'beliefs' required, no 'religion' required!

All are/is ONE Universal) in unconditional Love!

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS recognized by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity ('Charity' is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

Wage Love! Practice Compassion!

tat tvam asi (en.wikipedia.org...)

originally posted by: Disturbinatti

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: randyvs

Originally posted randyvs
I don't recall Jesus claiming to be his Father either.

Neither do I…

But Christians believe Jesus is God…

Go figure…

- JC

Even though clearly Jesus (pbuh) has a God, "The Lord OUR God IS ONE."

I was called primitive mentally for not "understanding" that this doesn't mean Jesus (pbuh) isn't God.

I know it does mean that.

"You have one Father in Heaven."

"OUR Father who is in Heaven."

Our God, his God. His 'Father' our 'Father.'

I will stay primitive if this is primitive!

Reason is the LEAST primitive thing I can think of as a concept.

And there is pure reason in my OP. IMO at least.

I guess it's a "Brave New World" and I am a ''savage."

Stop being completely disillusioned. Islam is death. Plain and simple and I am sick of sugar coating it. Accept the gift you have been given with Yeshua Hamashiach and come out of the corruption.

Think about it.. . That idiot Prophet promises earthly pleasures.... really? seriously? How dense can humans be. Who promises earthly physical flesh powers and influence? Who's kingdom is of this world of corruption? Who promises physical pleasures and even entire kingdoms on earth?

Really?

C'mon the answer is obvious.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
Even though clearly Jesus (pbuh) has a God, "The Lord OUR God IS ONE."

I seriusly dont think He meant that as "He has a God." or "He has a Father"

Exodus 3:14 - God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’“

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

“I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” At this the Jews exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?” Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:49-58)

Notice how Jesus described "My Father" there?
The Jewish responded;

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

Jesus used Third person perspective, "My Father" as Himself instead of "I". WHY?
Because, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing..." He already said it earlier.

The Jewish clearly understand his meaning,"I and My Father are one." as "I am God"

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
( Again, Jesus used third person perspective conversation. Instead of "Me", He used "Father." Wow! It must be very hard for God to stay humble among humankind. He clearly doesnt want to glorify himself when He can be if He wanted it. I mean how hard can it be to make Himself the Emperor of Roman Empire and become arrogant like Constanstine? But Noo. He seriously wanted to be insignificant to the world and suffer! Yup the value of humbleness is what God want to teach us. But some priests dont want to accept that. They insist on their supremcy based on self proclaimed divination. What a joke! )

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.



Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)


PS: This was a message to Muhammad in Medina.
Revelation 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

a reply to: EasternShadow

Originally posted by EasternShadow
I speak for myself.

I am not atheist. I am agnostic in the sense that I am not sure, if God exist or not.

At some point of my life I do believe in Abrahamic God. But now I am not so sure.

I will continue searching tho. The scriptures and the history of religions have failed me. They left me completely devastated. My heart for faith is now empty. The only thing I still have with me is my mind. Science, Mathematic and logical thinking. It's the only thing that keep me from becoming mentally ill. The only thing that keep me alive. Religion would have kill me a long time ago.

If God exist I will thank Him for keeping me open to all religion but never embrace any of it.

You posted the above in another thread found here…

Why is someone who is an Agnostic, defending the Trinity with such fervour…???

- JC

a reply to: EasternShadow

Originally posted by EasternShadow
I seriusly dont think He meant that as "He has a God." or "He has a Father"

So when Jesus prayed to God, he didn’t believe he had a Father God…?

When Jesus said “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God…”, he didn’t believe he had a God…?

When Jesus said “by myself I can do nothing…”…he didn’t believe he had a God…?

And when Jesus said, “call No Man on earth Father” (meaning God) he wasn’t including himself in that equation…?

Originally posted by EasternShadow
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

Jesus used Third person perspective, "My Father" as Himself instead of "I". WHY?

Jesus didn’t use the phrase , "My Father" for himself…???

Plus, you’re missing the rest of the context of the verse…

John 8: 34-39
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

The Pharisees misunderstood what Jesus was really saying when he said “I and the Father are one”…They only thought Jesus was claiming to be God…but Jesus try's to correct their misunderstanding by pointing out that he was only claiming to be a “son of God”, and by quoting Psalm 82…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
Because, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing..." He already said it earlier.

But if Jesus was God there would be nothing wrong with Him glorifying Himself…The only reason he wouldn’t glorify himself, is if he wasn’t God…and if he knew that the Father was greater and above him etc…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

The phrase “I am” doesn’t denote God or Yahweh in every verse that you find it in.

It can just as well mean, I am such and such, or I exist or existed…

In regards to John 14:6-7…If you were the only one at that time promoting the one true God and the real truth…then you would use the phrase “I am the way”…because no one else would be following or promoting the true way at that time.

You would also make sure that people come to God through your message and teachings…and not claim that you are the Father God etc…

Originally posted by EasternShadow
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

Jesus was so close to the Father, that God was practically speaking through him in spirit…Which is why Jesus said “those who have seen me, have seen the Father” etc…which IMO meant they had come to know God, through Jesus teachings and words…

Jesus had the understanding that the Father (Spirit of God) lives in all of us…it’s just that most of us can’t see it…this is why Jesus was “the way” at that time….

This is also why Jesus said “I and the Father are one”…and why Jesus prayed for the disciples to become one, just as he was one with the Father…in John 17…

John 17:20-21
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Jesus was praying for them to become born of the spirit; which is described in John 14 and more specifically in John 14:20. On the day you become born again, you will come to know that the father is within you.

John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

Originally posted by EasternShadow
John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Think about it…if you had God speaking through you more than any other person at that time, then men would begin to think and believe you were God…

But we know from other verses, that Jesus prays to God, sees God as greater than himself, states that there are 2 witnesses etc etc…All of which have to be weighed up collectively…

- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: EasternShadow

Originally posted by EasternShadow
I speak for myself.

I am not atheist. I am agnostic in the sense that I am not sure, if God exist or not.

At some point of my life I do believe in Abrahamic God. But now I am not so sure.

I will continue searching tho. The scriptures and the history of religions have failed me. They left me completely devastated. My heart for faith is now empty. The only thing I still have with me is my mind. Science, Mathematic and logical thinking. It's the only thing that keep me from becoming mentally ill. The only thing that keep me alive. Religion would have kill me a long time ago.

If God exist I will thank Him for keeping me open to all religion but never embrace any of it.

You posted the above in another thread found here…

Why is someone who is an Agnostic, defending the Trinity with such fervour…???

- JC

Am I?

I'm familiar with Catholic church and bible literacy is my field of study. Just like Disturbinatti, I too question trinity before several Catholic priests. What I have post here is what I have come to learn from them. At first I wanted to ignore Disturbinatti, but then I think the guy is sincere and at least deserve some explaination.