Question's regarding "The Flood"

a reply to: Byrd

Well then I guess I got a map project this weekend

a reply to: Byrd
About the pyramid outer casings, in Mark Lehner's book the Mystery of the Pyramid:

The fact, that even in the 12th century most of the outer surface stones still existed (observed by Abd al-Latif) shows, how lasting and admirable the Egyptian architectures built. The beautiful outer stones were very popular and were removed from the pyramids bit by bit and used as building material for mosques and houses in Cairo. But even in 1639 the Oxford astronomy professor John Greaves wrote, that the whole face of Khafre's pyramid except the southern side was still entirely intact, but at that time the stones of the pyramid of Khufu had already been removed.

Are these mosques and houses in Cairo still exist and identified today? It'll be a cool tourist sidetrip.

Abd al-Latif et al could corroborate Albiruni's account... or disprove.

originally posted by: MaxTamesSiva
a reply to: Harte
You're right, it's not from Herodotus but from the medieval Arab historian Al Biruni, writing in his treatise The Chronology of Ancient Nations. My apologies. To quote from the notes of Sir Henry Rawlinson on Herodotus' accounts of The Great Pyramids; "It doesn't matter who tells you, you have still been told." No, I'm not trying to wriggle out of my mistake and make excuses, I appreciate it for pointing that out... yeah, I'm too lazy to fact check.

A few more interesting facts:
H. P. Blavatsky in one of her books of Hermes describes the pyramids as standing upon the sea-shore, "the waves of which dashed in powerless fury against its base." This implies that the geographical features of the country have been changed, and may indicate that we must accord to [the pyramids] . . . an origin antedating the upheaval of the Sahara and other deserts. -- Isis Unveiled 1:520.

The salt encrustation discovered in the Queen's Chamber when it was first opened... One of the greatest mysteries of this chamber has been the salt encrustation on the walls. It was up to one-half-inch thick in places, and Petrie took it into account when he made measurements of the chamber. The salt also was found along the Horizontal Passage and in the lower portion of the Grand Gallery. How did salt come to build up on the walls?

Those who have seen some significance in the presence of the salt have speculated that it could have been deposited on the walls as the water of the biblical Great Flood receded. Others have speculated that the Great Pyramid and its neighbors were surrounded by water at one time. -- Christopher Dunn, The Giza Power Plant, p. 193.

There are also mentions of the great flood in the Mayan Popol Vuh, the Vedic Manu-smriti and the Chinese Gun-Yu to name a few.
Flood Myths
Why Does Nearly Every Culture Have a Tradition of a Global Flood?

Did a Comet Cause the Great Flood?

Yes, limestone, having formed on the sea bed, is full of salt.

Al Biruni was relating other people's opinions and attempting to debunk the very thing you claimed. You can read the relevant text here.

Blavatski was a fraud. She was run out of several countries when she was caught multiple times faking her medium act. She settled on esoteric quasi-fiction - you get less arrests that way.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Yes, limestone, having formed on the sea bed, is full of salt.

I don't know much about geology and chemistry, but I found these:
Limestone: Characteristics, Uses And Problem
Quarries in Ancient Egypt
Salt decay of Morley limestone
Limestone: What Is Limestone and How Is It Used?

Al Biruni was relating other people's opinions and attempting to debunk the very thing you claimed. You can read the relevant text here.

Wow. Jason Colavito, historical researcher and skeptic. I already made a direct quote to Byrd to keep it in context and would defer to muddle it up with regurgarated fluff. Forgive me, I have no problem philosophically about being a skeptic but I have a fundamental problem with skeptics giving definitive answers. What more can I say, the skeptics have all the answers... or, only a skeptic doesn't know what skepticsm is? That'll make a nice pair of bumper stickers.

Thank you for the link, I'll read it all with a grain of salt.

I already mentioned Abd al-Latif, his contemporaries and John Greaves, they might corroborate or disprove Albiruni.

Blavatski was a fraud. She was run out of several countries when she was caught multiple times faking her medium act. She settled on esoteric quasi-fiction - you get less arrests that way.

Seems like you already made up your mind, but I would like to keep my mind open.

originally posted by: Gargoyle91
a reply to: Byrd

Well then I guess I got a map project this weekend

Allow me to assist: countries of today mapped on Pangaea

However, that's not the rock layers. Here's a bit of geology

a reply to: Gargoyle91

I think you'll find that many of the stories of Floods world wide will date back to actual catastrophic regional floods, such as the legends here in the Pacific Northwest of Great Floods, may date back to the release of waters held back by ice from the huge inland lakes/seas dating to the melting of the great glaciers of the last Ice Age...

Or I could be totally wrong...

originally posted by: MaxTamesSiva
a reply to: Byrd
About the pyramid outer casings, in Mark Lehner's book the Mystery of the Pyramid:

The fact, that even in the 12th century most of the outer surface stones still existed (observed by Abd al-Latif) shows, how lasting and admirable the Egyptian architectures built. The beautiful outer stones were very popular and were removed from the pyramids bit by bit and used as building material for mosques and houses in Cairo. But even in 1639 the Oxford astronomy professor John Greaves wrote, that the whole face of Khafre's pyramid except the southern side was still entirely intact, but at that time the stones of the pyramid of Khufu had already been removed.

Are these mosques and houses in Cairo still exist and identified today? It'll be a cool tourist sidetrip.

Abd al-Latif et al could corroborate Albiruni's account... or disprove.

No, they're not identified today but some certainly exist. Egypt's ancient monuments were quarried continuously... we find pharaohs turning stones from previous dynasties into their own monuments and temples. I'm sure that some of the stones are buried in layers below the city itself, others have been turned into sculptures and other things, and still others have been removed from the area of Cairo -- even to other countries.

www.iflscience.com...

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn


That might be the real reason for pole displacement. If the weight of ice builds up on the Poles during an ice age, it might cause the mantle to shift, but when it melts again and everything evens out, their would be no displacement. So the reorientation during the build up, could be the shaky period. That would account for Antarctica being further north.

My two cents...not that it matters...

Before the flood, the earth was covered by a layer of clouds (water). Fountains of water came up to water the earth. A celestial event, probably a comet passing very near, caused the canopy to collapse and the earth to crack open releasing the water beneath.

It took 40 days and nights for the water canopy to collapse, and all that water covered the earth even to the highest (at that time) peak.

The water receded, the ice caps formed, and some of the water went back into the atmosphere. The water from the great flood is still here. Coastlines were much lower before the flood.

If every civilization has flood "myths" why couldn't it have been a global flood? Plate tectonics can explain why mountain peaks are higher now than before. If everyone on earth now was descended from Noah and his family who were saved on the ark, there would be stories of a great flood in every civilization.

Atlantis could have existed before the flood. The layer of clouds protected humans from cosmic rays , so they lived longer, even hundreds of years.

It is not a far stretch to believe in a single source for flood stories. For me, the fact that every civilization has a story of a global flood confirms that there was a global flood.

In the end, it is a matter of faith...believing without seeing.

I'd also like to add that religion and science don't have to be contradictory to each other.

I believe that the stories, myths, religions, etc. tell the "what" and science tells the "how."

God said "let there be light." I imagine that was a pretty "big bang."

a reply to: wshadow1

If every civilization has flood "myths" why couldn't it have been a global flood? Plate tectonics can explain why mountain peaks are higher now than before. If everyone on earth now was descended from Noah and his family who were saved on the ark, there would be stories of a great flood in every civilization.

This is why science and religion don't mix.

You can't introduce dogma into the scientific method, just won't work.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn


That might be the real reason for pole displacement. If the weight of ice builds up on the Poles during an ice age, it might cause the mantle to shift, but when it melts again and everything evens out, their would be no displacement. So the reorientation during the build up, could be the shaky period. That would account for Antarctica being further north.

The pole displacement is magnetic and has nothing to do with the mantle. It wanders all over the place, regardless of ice or not. And if you look up ice ages and pole placement (Wikipedia is a good summary but there's others) you will find that there's no match with dates and movements.

originally posted by: wshadow1
My two cents...not that it matters...

Before the flood, the earth was covered by a layer of clouds (water). Fountains of water came up to water the earth. A celestial event, probably a comet passing very near, caused the canopy to collapse and the earth to crack open releasing the water beneath.

The "Answers in Genesis" people used to promote this idea -- then they found that it was untenable and quit supporting it.

If every civilization has flood "myths" why couldn't it have been a global flood? Plate tectonics can explain why mountain peaks are higher now than before. If everyone on earth now was descended from Noah and his family who were saved on the ark, there would be stories of a great flood in every civilization.

* Not all cultures have a flood myth.
* "Noah and his family" doesn't explain the fact that written history started before them and continued through that time and there was no mention of the Earth suddenly being decimated and then repopulated.

originally posted by: MaxTamesSiva

Al Biruni was relating other people's opinions and attempting to debunk the very thing you claimed. You can read the relevant text here.

Wow. Jason Colavito, historical researcher and skeptic. I already made a direct quote to Byrd to keep it in context and would defer to muddle it up with regurgarated fluff. Forgive me, I have no problem philosophically about being a skeptic but I have a fundamental problem with skeptics giving definitive answers. What more can I say, the skeptics have all the answers... or, only a skeptic doesn't know what skepticsm is? That'll make a nice pair of bumper stickers.

Thank you for the link, I'll read it all with a grain of salt.

That's fine. Just understand that there ARE people that have studied these semi-ancient writings for their entire lives and not just snippets like the ones you and I linked.
I posted before I finished reading the newer posts in the thread, I saw your quote after I posted.
If you read the material at Colavito's page I linked, you'll find that there's no content there written by Colavito. The guy has put up lots of different medieval and earlier writings on his site, for reference purposes.
You can scoff at Colavito, but his opinion doesn't appear on the page I linked.

originally posted by: MaxTamesSiva

Blavatski was a fraud. She was run out of several countries when she was caught multiple times faking her medium act. She settled on esoteric quasi-fiction - you get less arrests that way.

Seems like you already made up your mind, but I would like to keep my mind open.

Maybe you should read about her life somewhere other than fringe websites. No other conclusion can be reached. She was also quite racist, but that goes with the time she lived in.

Harte

a reply to: Harte
I apologize for being salty. You probably caught the tail-end of my frustration and self-loathing... the Celtics lost game 5. Annihilated. (Sigh). I'm calm now and collected with the help of half a bottle of cheap brandy.

So, where do I begin?
First, Jason Colavito's homepage banner; this may sound superficial but hear me out. I could've tip my hat to him if it only said HISTORICAL RESEARCHER regardless of his bias, propensities, prejudice, agendas, political affiliations and kinky proclivities. I truly am baffled everytime I see the label SKEPTIC as if basking with pride and honor with the appellation... or is it just a matter of eyebrow raising web page design that runs counter to my aesthetic sensibilities?

Second, who wrote the loaded note? To quote:

The Persian polymath al-Biruni (973-1048 CE) produced a famous work on the chronology of history, part of which explores questions that plagued Jewish, Christian, and Islamic attempts to reconcile secular and sacred history. In the following passages, al-Biruni attempts to unravel the truth about Flood of Noah and in so doing takes direct aim at the famous work of the astrologer ’Abu-Ma‘shar, whose slightly earlier writings laid the foundations for the Islamic myth of the antediluvian origins of the pyramids and their connection to astrological cycles of fire and flood, claims that find their ultimate origin in Babylonian astrological traditions.

Let us examine:

"... al-Biruni attempts to unravel the truth about Flood of Noah and in so doing takes direct aim at the famous work of the astrologer ’Abu-Ma‘shar, whose slightly earlier writings laid the foundations for the Islamic myth of the antediluvian origins of the pyramids and their connection to astrological cycles of fire and flood..."

You interpreted it as debunking and I agree. Where is his explanation, analyses, critiques etc. that lead him to note that? It's his website, who could be the culprit? Colavino, assuming it was him, doesn't even have the courtesy of pointing out the relevant passages in Albiruni'S book to his readers and you want me to appreciate his scholarly effort in this particular topic? Which brings me to:

Third, format. To recapitulate; a loaded anonymous note and a lengthy passage, deep wall off texts (almost the entirety of Chapter 3 )and... Bam! A scholarly hit and run.

Fourth, I linked a copy of the whole book in my previous post and quoted the pertinent passage. I even asked Byrd for his take on it. It's right here in front of our monitors- the primary source, the bone of contention for us to analyze and interpret, why give credence to an anonymous note?


As to Blavatski, that could all be true but I have a budding interest in esoterica. Cheers!

a reply to: MaxTamesSiva
Apparently, that is Colavito's text. I thought he was quoting someone else. I concede your point there.

Are you prepared to dispute his characterization?

I'm not up on my al-Biruni so I can't.

I'd wager that very few people on Earth are.

Colavito's concentration is on disputing the claims made by the AA people. That's why he has posted the pertinent portions of al-Biruni concerning the pyramids, so that people can read it for themselves.

Because I don't know enough about the dispute al-Biruni had with the astrologer Colavito mentions, I'm willing to take his word for it. After all, it's there online for anyone to comment on.

I'm ready to accept your counterargument, assuming you can make one.

Regarding skepticism, you are simply wrong-headed there.

We owe everything we have today to skepticism. Without it, there simply can be no science at all because theories have to stand up to the skeptical view - that's how they are accepted.

Harte

a reply to: Byrd

Thank you byrd saved me some work I would like to thank everyone how has participated in this thread there is so much info here to research you just could not get anywhere else , Continue

I'm still going the Pangaea route it's the only thing that makes sense in my mind. You got to step outside the box then hover over it.

If a event of this magnitude had accoured 4 - 6 or even 20000 years agaio we would still see the effects today .
Think about what your saying water covering the tallest places 5 miles of water air so thin you better be a health person to breath it .
6 people left ( well they sure got bussie because historical records go back alest 7 thousand years and every one of them describe a planet with 100 s of millions of people so from the time of this flood ( most date it at most 6 k years back but lets call it 10 k years well during that time there were apx 350 million people on earth a 1000 years later the number was near the same a 1000 years after that the same .
No ware in written history ( including the bible ) is there a 5000 year spot with almost no people .
See you got Noah and his sons and there wife's that is 6 or 8 people .
being generis and saying every kid they and there kids lived to adult hood it would take 4000 years to get back to 300 million people .
And yet during this time none of these people seamed to notice the lak of nabiors .
Its not just a flood you would be talking about here its a edge of extinction event every animal only two left ones dies the spices dies . And what of the fish ? most are ether salt or fresh and cant live in the opposite so much water .
God did not crate one micril to save Noah he did thousands for 2000 years .
Mite as well go around burning witches at the stake theres a better chance you mite accutly have a witch .

a reply to: Harte
Albiruni gave it his best shot to create a historical timeline of ancient events that makes sense to him by collecting and reconciling the different calendars from different countries, cultures and religions in the ancient past. Not an easy task considering the prodigious amount of information involved. He said that it was a moral duty to chronicle it and to pass on the knowledge to future generations. He was not on a mission to debunk Abu Ma'shar as Colavito's note suggest.

"... al-Biruni attempts to unravel the truth about (the) Flood of Noah and in so doing takes direct aim at the famous work of the astrologer Abu-Ma‘shar..."

Granting that there were errors in Abu-Ma‘shar's calculations and his correlations to ancient events; by the time Albinuri wrote his book The Chronology of Ancient Nations Abu-Ma‘shar was dead for about 200 years! Again to quote from the note of Colavino:

"... Abu-Ma‘shar, whose slightly earlier writings laid the foundations for the Islamic myth of the antediluvian origins of the pyramids..."

See what a sneaky bastard Colavito is? Consider his choice of words, "slightly earlier" in what context, astrological? In human terms maybe 10 or 20 years can be considered "slightly earlier" but he didn't mention it, he could've written "after about two centuries" for clarity's sake. Is it intentional?... and again "in so doing takes direct aim" really? For someone that is internationally recognized by literary theorists one can't help but to ask why? Does he have an agenda?... oh, AA!

Was it Abu-Ma‘shar's fault that nobody checked his computations during his lifetime and after his death? Was it because Abu-Ma‘shar was famous and revered during that time that the thought of correcting his works seemed blasphemous to the astrologers and mathematicians that survived him?

I embrace skepticism but wary about those who called themselves skeptics.

Colavito is an admirable archivist and writer, maybe a good translator and editor but as an impartial historical researcher in this particular case, no.