Essene theory

I have always hated it when people talk about the Qumran sect of the Dead Sea Scrolls "Essenes." Pretty much because not once is anything that resembles the word, which is only known in Greek form, Josephus and Philo are the only real believeable sources and the warlike people of the Dead Sea Scrolls were anything but "peaceful Essenes" as Philo and Josephus describe them, they are hell bent on destroying Rome, even ruling the world, as the "War Scroll" spells out.

But then there is Hippolytus "Four philosophies" of Essenes that he describes are quite distinct from one another in his polemic against heretics, and they could easily be the different communities like "Ebionim", "Hasidim", "Zaddikim" and "Nosrei ha Brit" or something similar, described by a Greek/gentile, who just knows them as Essenes.

Which leaves the name as the last mystery to solve, how it connects to the DSS.

And it hit me. The "Jessenes" of the much confused Epiphanius' Panarion.

I thought of Issa'enes too, tbh, because a Hebrew E is I in Arabic, which made it interesting.

Issa(pbuh) is Jesus' name in Islam. Which is unique to Islam and not used by Arab Christians, probably because they use the Arabic equivalent of Joshua (pbuh), the same as Jesus but the Latin from the Greek from the Hebrew/Aramaic. But it is still the same Jesus (pbuh).

Issa supports the theory Christianity is a knock off of the Essenes, who would in this case be peaceful but not willing to turn the other cheek or give Rome a damn thing, you should read the War Scroll...

Not only is "Root of Jesse" regarding the Messiah who descends from Jesse-David in the Scrolls.

But so is "Sons of Yesha"(Sons of Salvation.) as a term for the Yahad (community)."

And Esse, since transliterated and translated FROM Aramaic/Hebrew, can be Essa (a=e in Hebrew, Aleph), which could come from Yesha or Jesse, giving us Jessaeans, and for whatever reason the Yod/Y/J/I was dropped.

Which would make the best source of information outside of the Dead Sea Scrolls, if they were elusive Essenes at all which I would doubt if not for, is Hippolytus of Rome who I believe may have been using Josephus, although if true a very different one than what we have today.

I owe Proffessor and DSS Uncovered (unreleased fragments he obtained photos of and translated and published) author and translator Robert Eisenman for the Hippolytus tip, he is a DSS scholar par excellence, and for the Ebionim, Zaddikim, Yesha, etc, words he explains in commentary, something most Dead Sea Scrolls proper (previously releases majority) don't do so much.

I will get a link to Hippolytus and DSS Uncovered in a moment.

Hippolytus Essenes

DSS Uncovered

Chapter 7, this is the actual book Eisenman published, has "Hymns to the Poor(Ebionim)and "Sons of Yesha" with the relevant information.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

So. You're taking one scroll ( The War Scroll ) out of a collection of material and using it to characterize the Essenes.

This is how trouble starts..

a reply to: AgarthaSeed

I used far more than one source, I did USE the War Scroll, but only to prove they were militant.

It does.

I gave a link to two whole books.

Read them.

I never implied one scroll "characterized" them, at all, you assume that for no reason because I supplied information but only mentionied the existence of the War Scroll because it is relevant to my theory, which is that Essa=Yesha or Jesse which are themes in the DSS, and the source of Essene in Greek form and translated from it.

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed
a reply to: Disturbinatti

So. You're taking one scroll ( The War Scroll ) out of a collection of material and using it to characterize the Essenes.

This is how trouble starts..

I used the DSS Uncovered, DSS, Hippolytus and merely MENTIONIED the War Scroll to prove they were not pacifists.

That doesn't start trouble.

It's accurate.

a reply to: AgarthaSeed


I take it you are not very familiar with the Qumran community but they were actually more like Zealots than the peaceful Essenes of Philo.

Which is where Hippolytus comes in.

Try following along.

And for the record I didn't invent the Essene theory.

But the War Scroll proves they weren't pacifists.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: AgarthaSeed


I take it you are not very familiar with the Qumran community but they were actually more like Zealots than the peaceful Essenes of Philo.

Which is where Hippolytus comes in.

Try following along.

And for the record I didn't invent the Essene theory.

But the War Scroll proves they weren't pacifists.

Does the Book of Revelations prove that Christ was someone advocating war, famine, conquest, etc.?

Nope he merely spoke of Revelation's events as a warning of evil manifestations.

As with The War Scroll. Yes, it contains specific details about war equipment and military strategy but for which "war" were they discussing? Oh right! The sons of light vs. The sons of darkness. Not a literal Essene army looking for violence.

And thank you for mentioning Pliny, because even he said that the Essenes didn't tolerate violence or anger BUT they still carried weapons for protection.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

There appear to be 2 sect of Essenes. The Ossaeans and the Nazareans.

I don’t know too much about the Ossaeans but the Nazareans were the group that Paul was accused of hanging out with at his trail. Clearly this group (the Nazareans) were disliked by the Romans. And of course Jesus was referred as a Nazarean…

It seems like the Ebionites and Nazerarenes were very similar; both rejecting the orthodox Canonical Gospels. They also both kept the “Gospel of the Hebrews”…which as we both know, contained a verse from the “Gospel of Thomas”…and could well be that same book; only given a different title by the Church Fathers…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft


According to Hippolytus, the link I gave, there were four, which could be a later development.

Other than that all we know is from Josephus and Philo who say roughly the same thing.

Paul being accused of being a ringleader of the Nazarenes seems to be a literary device to legitimize his alleged acceptance by them.

Paul doesn't use the word.

It's always Christian after that and Nazarenes isn't used again until Epiphanius.

I believe they were the Nosrei ha Brit of the Dead Sea Scrolls and "the Way" of the same source. Keepers of the Covenant.

Like the Ebionim of the same source are the Ebionites, "Poor Saints" of Jerusalem as Paul puts it, "Men of James" as the Ebionites claimed themselves, and hated Paul, said he was not Jewish but a Greek convert who sought a woman and/or a high position, was rejected and that is why he hates Circumcision and Judaism.

Like Poleme of Josephus book XX Antiquities.
Where Saul the Pharisee is mentionied. And one Pallas who wrote epistles to incite the Jews of Syria (Christians of Damascus??).

Seems like they knew something and got it from Josephus because all that is in the same chapter James and Jesus are mentionied (pbut).

The Essenes are a mystery, the Talmud doesn't know of them even, not even the Palestinian Talmud.

And I word doesn't exist in the DSS, but what I am saying is if "Jesse" or "Yesha", I don't know which fits better but Jesse is my guess as Jesseans are mentionied by Epiphanius in Panarion and "Root of Jesse" a popular theme in the DSS.

I think that it's a misnomer used by outsiders for the Qumran sects, who were secretive as it is, for everyone said they were pacifists but the War Scroll proves otherwise so I don't think a group actually called "Essenes" existed but that because they had reverence for Jesse and David were called Jesseans and at some point the J was dropped, maybe to suggest that they are different groups when in reality they are not.

Epiphanius is barely ever completely reliable and I don't think so honest.

Hippolytus connects the DSS to the people called Essenes, but I don't believe they ever called themselves that.


Side note we were talking about Nag Hammadi scriptures and Islam and I wanted to say that I have read all of them and P.S. and that I see G.I.S. as Allah, the exegesis of Genesis so critical of "Adam where are you" is a common one in Islam as is the blaming of Eve more than Adam, which differs from the Sethian exegesis but many of the criticisms of Catholicism/Christianity in Gospel of Truth, you quoted from it, like vicarious atonement, we share as well.

Revelation of Peter perfectly explains the Qur'an version of the "crucifixion", better than anything written and is not actually Sethian or demiurgic Gnostic in character either, if it didn't contradict the Gospels it could be Orthodox.

And though people see the demiurge Ialdabaoth as YHVH, it is not based on Quranic exegesis, so I don't mind, though it is true.

And Sophia/Wisdom, is the Creator of earth if you read carefully, called a "Throne for Ialdabaoth" who makes copies, inferior ones, of things that exist but can't create anything, and couldn't even give Adam Spirit.

So it can't be Allah.

Plus like the DSS, NHL was found by a Muslim named Muhammad.

Some coincidence!

a reply to: AgarthaSeed


That's a rationalization of the contents of the War Scroll, which wasn't Canonical scripture and was a real plan.

Have you read it? I own the Book of the DSS, they were not writing fiction and took this very seriously and hated Rome, wanted to destroy the "Sons of Darkness" because they were oppressed.

Is that so hard to understand?

Can you blame them?

One plan which history tells us they lost.

Some of the same fragments found at Masada were found at Qumran.

I know you want to romanticize them, but it's not the truth.

No pacifist would possess a writing as shockingly violent as the War Scroll, not as Holy Scripture, but something they thought would actually happen.

It did but they lost.

a reply to: AgarthaSeed


In fact as much as John really wanted to see Rome destroyed (which was by Christianity ironically, at least in the west), so did "The Sons of Light."

Yet it was Jerusalem that was destroyed and not Rome. John would have been dissapointed. It was written while Nero was alive based on internal evidence and Nero did fall, committed suicide, but his successors would be much worse.

The Jews hated Rome, except for traitors, and Qumran was no different.

Why rationalize? They had every right to fight their oppressors, you don't have to make excuses for that.

They believed God would intercede, and maybe in a way beyond our understanding He did, but it would seem it was not to the benefit of the Sect at Qumram, many must have escaped to Syria and Arabia where Christianity would be found soon after, and not Latin Christianity, Nazarenes and Ebionites, Jews who believed in the Messiah.

Syriac is sometimes called "Christian Aramaic", Syria was a land of Nazarenes in Acts, so it's not unlikely that some escaped.

Hippolytus describes FOUR sects of Essenes, did you read it yet, I gave you a link?

In greater detail than Pliny or anyone really.

And they are not all pacifists, some extremely militant.

I told you to read it, it is one chapter and will clear up your confusion.

a reply to: AgarthaSeed



And besides it is not a fact that the DSS were even written by the Essenes and without Hippolytus the evidence is opposed to it because they aren't a perfect fit for any one description by Josephus or Philo or Pliny, actually don't fit at all once you look into it by READING THE DSS, Philo, Josephus and Pliny, if you do that it can't be said they are Essenes.

In fact if not for Hippolytus I would not consider it, the DSS people are nothing like the Essenes of any author besides Hippolytus, other than certain customs, but both were Judahite so..
not exactly proof they were the same and the similarities are scant.

More like Zealots, peaceful Zealots for the Law and militant Zealots alike.

a reply to: AgarthaSeed


You are so adamantly oppposed to the idea that the War Scroll was literally the goals of the sect but you won't find support for that opposition in the Scrolls or much of Academia given the climate at the time was immensely hostile between Jew, Jews and Romans and in Judea period because of the Romans.

It's not reasonable to conclude they didn't want what was written to really happen. It just didn't.

Have you read the DSS or even the War Scroll?

Because you didn't know Hippolytus existed and he writes more details about them than anyone I have a hard time believing you are even moderately informed about the subject of the Essenes or the separate (until proven otherwise which isn't likely as Hippolytus is the best evidence of a connection) subject of the DSS at all.

It seems you have a second hand, romanticized view of the elusive Essenes from people who rely on sources with little information.

Pliny was not a Jew, and no way is he a reliable source of information regarding the Essenes, a secretive sect as it is.

Philo didn't know much and neither does what we have as Josephus.

And if you compare the 3 (not Hippolytus) with the DSS it's a bust, not the same people is the only logical conclusion.

And the word Essene's source is unknown but it is not (hasn't been) found in the DSS at all.

So my theory is regarding source of the word, connection to the Scrolls and Hippolytus makes it possible.

Nobody else.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Originally posted
Like the Ebionim of the same source are the Ebionites, "Poor Saints" of Jerusalem as Paul puts it, "Men of James" as the Ebionites claimed themselves, and hated Paul, said he was not Jewish but a Greek convert who sought a woman and/or a high position, was rejected and that is why he hates Circumcision and Judaism.

What’s your thoughts on the Ebionites and the Nazarenes being one and the same group. Both appear to be given the title of “pious ones”, a title given by Irenaeus. Both have pretty similar beliefs, both rejected connonical texts, and both rejected Paul. Jesus held his brother James in high regard, and so did the Ebionites.

Also archaeology has never found a town or place called Nazareth, it’s almost as if it never existed.

Originally posted
Like Poleme of Josephus book XX Antiquities.
Where Saul the Pharisee is mentionied. And one Pallas who wrote epistles to incite the Jews of Syria (Christians of Damascus??).

Seems like they knew something and got it from Josephus because all that is in the same chapter James and Jesus are mentionied (pbut).

The Essenes are a mystery, the Talmud doesn't know of them even, not even the Palestinian Talmud.

Yeah, I’m always a bit suspicious when groups don’t name themselves within their own texts. And when others appoint them names; like for example, early church fathers calling certain groups Gnostics.

Originally posted
Side note we were talking about Nag Hammadi scriptures and Islam and I wanted to say that I have read all of them and P.S. and that I see G.I.S. as Allah, the exegesis of Genesis so critical of "Adam where are you" is a common one in Islam as is the blaming of Eve more than Adam, which differs from the Sethian exegesis but many of the criticisms of Catholicism/Christianity in Gospel of Truth, you quoted from it, like vicarious atonement, we share as well.

I personally think that all the stories relating to the Great Invisible Spirit, Barbelo and Yaldabaoth that we find in the so called “Gnostic texts”, are all metaphorical teachings. Like for example Yaldabaoth is the lion faced one, who is following his animal nature/ego…which is also why he can’t give Adam Spirit and life within the story…

The “Gospel of truth” is a beautiful book…IMO

There is a huge cross over/connection, between the Christian Gnostic texts, and the Quran. Like for example Jesus turning clay into birds, is found in the Quran and also within the Infancy Gospel of Thomas.

And then there’s the “Gospel of Judas”, and the line where Jesus is talking about Heaven and describing it being like that "which no eye of an Angel has seen" etc…with the exact same words being found within the Quran.

Originally posted
Revelation of Peter perfectly explains the Qur'an version of the "crucifixion", better than anything written and is not actually Sethian or demiurgic Gnostic in character either, if it didn't contradict the Gospels it could be Orthodox.

I believe Islam’s interpretation of Jesus crucifixion; may have come via a misunderstanding from the Gnostic text… “The Acts of John”

The Acts of John…97
I, then, when I saw him suffer, did not even abide by his suffering, but fled unto the Mount of Olives, weeping at that which had befallen. And when he was crucified on the Friday, at the sixth hour of the day, darkness came upon all the earth. And my Lord standing in the midst of the cave and enlightening it, said: John, unto the multitude below in Jerusalem I am being crucified and pierced with lances and reeds, and gall and vinegar is given me to drink. But unto thee I speak, and what I speak hear thou. I put it into thy mind to come up into this mountain, that thou mightest hear those things which it behoveth a disciple to learn from his teacher and a man from his God.

- JC

I believe someone commented that the Essenes were known to carry weapons according to Pliny or another source.

But according to Philo who lived in Egypt and was a Judahite philosopher/historian and knew them personally they would have absolutely nothing to do with even making weapons or anything that could possibly be corrupted and used for wicked purposes.

Philo Essenes (79)

Read this then the War Scroll.

My point is that if you want to believe these reports are accurate they can't conflict with each other and since Philo is the earliest source he should be considered the most accurate, but he wasn't one of them so who knows what they really believed.

But this can NOT be talking about the contemporary community at Qumran, who were readying for Armageddon at the same time as Philo wrote.

a reply to: Joecroft


I highly doubt Apocryphal Christian literature had any effect on Islam whatsoever, maybe the traditions in them, not the books though.

Mohammed (saws) was illiterate anyway so it would have had to have been told to him which pretty much is like saying he just made everything up. Is a sloppy plagiarist.

Yet the Qur'an is unique in style and doesn't show dependence on any genre of literature, Jewish or Christian, just similar stories and same people, told much diffently in Arabic it is more like poetry, the only genre of (spoken) entertainment that appraches literature, existing in Arabia at the time among the Arabs, like I said they had nothing to write on. The first Qur'an was written on scraps of whatever could be found.

The one actually historically verifiable Prophet (saws) is not likely to have relied on a religion he denounces as Idolaters because of its doctrines of Son of God and Trinity.

A bit of an assumption I would say.

And before him Basilides said similar stories, that Simon of Cyrene was crucified, so why would it be a misunderstanding when that belief is independent of the Book you mentioned? From different sources, Basilides wasn't Sethian and they don't have Simon featured in their version either to provide evidence that Basilides influenced them, did they BOTH (and) ALSO misunderstand something?

Or have different yet similar beliefs independent of each other, because they are different sects, that have a like source that might just be the truth?

I would say the latter is far more reasonable than the Gospels or the Orthodox account.

And the Revelation of Peter is the perfect explanation for what actually happened, ie, Jesus (pbuh) didn't die or suffer, and is not the source either obviously, as Apocryphal books were a death sentence and pretty much don't exist in 7th century Arabic MSS. At all actually.

So that is impossible to support, that Christian literature influenced Islam. If I adopt an atheist mindset I could consider oral traditions being passed down but not even the Qur'an was written while he was alive, Mohammed saws, it was done after by Abu Bakr, others too.

They didn't even have paper.

However it is not any form of misunderstanding, simply put, it doesn't make sense that God would let His Messiah lose at the hands of his enemies.

And that ressurecting him somehow changed that, when clearly salvation didn't come to Judea, but Rome, is just absurd.

Enter vicarious atonement, the plan b of theology.

If you ask me the crucifixion is a total fabrication altogether and the misunderstanding or "illusion" is that it ever happened at all.

Jesus (pbuh) is a historical phantom. Like everyone in the Bible who isn't a known historical figure outside of it like Cyrus, Pilate, etc.

There is no accurate record of those event that were written down centuries later.

So it is pretty much moot. I don't rely on it for my salvation so it is perfectly fine with me as a mystery, which is what Jesus (pbuh) is.

That's what makes it interesting actually.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Pretty much because not once is anything that resembles the word,

Are you saying "the word" as in the bible?

you are aware a good portion of the DSS is material from the OT

a reply to: Akragon

No I believe I was saying "Essenes" isn't used in the DSS.

Because that is what I said.

Maybe pay attention?

You do realize that I have already stated I own the DSS?

So know about the fragments that were found and complete Isaiah Scroll, and it is not the Bible I am talking about because you know it doesn't say Essene, or what is important or have anything to do with the thread topic.

So you read the word, word, and ASSUME I mean the Bible when I mean the word Essene.

But want to try ''telling" me what is rather common knowledge, that along with Sectarian and historical documents the DSS community left behind Biblical fragments of every book but Esther and a complete Isaiah?

Even though you can not deduce what I stated in plain English? And think every time someone says word it means the Bible even if they are talking about something else like A word, Essene, which is the title of my thread+theory?

Maybe you should read people's comments more clearly or something but you don't look so smart right now so something else than fallacious questions off topic.

Is my advice to you.

Don't try being smart unless you are.

Also is.

a reply to: Akragon

I have no doubt you are the only person who doesn't realize that the word I was talking about is a word not a book, because of how easy it is to read that that is what I said.

And that if you tried maybe you could contribute something other than a poorly thought-out question about what word I mean when I said it was the word Essene.

Maybe you thought you were making me look dumb with your little attempted sassination, but I can assure you it didn't, doesn't.

I would say that it backfired because you got lazy and didn't pay attention.

a reply to: Joecroft


Jesus pbuh and the birds of clay is not Gnostic.

It's from the infancy Gospels of Thomas and James, Orthodox, non Canonical, not Gnostic.

Different Gospel of Thomas than the Gnostic Copts had, later too. And the Qur'an was already written before they went to Egypt.

I actually have it too, Ante Nicene fathers volume 8, from before the discovery of Nag Hammadi too, and it has no elements of Gnosticism whatsoever. It's just a proto-evangelium, or Apocryphal Infancy Gospel, but nothing to do with Egyptian Gnosticism or anything unorthodox. Except when Jesus (pbuh) kills a kid for bumping into him it is pretty Orthodox.

But there is a shared element true. The birds of clay.

In Islam's version the birds die after they fly too far from Jesus (pbuh) to show he is powerful but inferior to God. According to Al Jalalalayni Tafsir, a Qur'an with commentary.

I don't believe that is the case in the Infancy Gospels.

But obviously I am not receptive to the idea of borrowing, and not just because I'm a Muslim, but because it would have been pretty hard for Apocryphal Orthodox Catholic books, non-Canonical (especially) to make their way to Arabia where Catholicism had no home.

Syria maybe but I would like to see a 7th century AD MS. of the Infancy Gospels in Syriac, before I even considered it. 8th even 9th, but I have a translation of the Homilies and Recognitions of Clement in Syriac, much different from the Greek and Latin translations, dated 410AD.

Literally the oldest dated MS. in the world.

Catholics, even in the Mid East, would totally rub it in our faces if any such MSS. existed, so I think it is safe to say they don't.

But the H&R theology is very compatible with Islam, and doesn't have any influence on the Qur'an either that I can see.

Ever hear of the "Ascents of James"?

If not do some research from the Church Fathers to familiarize yourself with the contents. Follow me here.

Eisenman and others posit Stephen in Acts is a pseudonym for James and it's describing his death in reality as Stephen doesn't exist.

There is an Apocalypse attributed to Stephen that has got to be the Ascents of James you will be able to find, I figured it out yesterday, probably redacted.

Also the link I gave you about Paul and Clement and Peter says this Stephen was related to Paul, his nephew.

Apocalypse of Stephen says he was a Benjaminite.

Which most people don't know is actually code for "Herodian Jew" because Benjaminites didn't exist then in reality.

That is the weird part as James wasn't an Idumean, I can't see Stephen, if he ever existed, as having been one either seeing as how they killed the Messiah, I wonder if a redactor would add it, not knowing this, because he had knowledge of the book I gave you a link to which is a version of the H&R of Clement in a later MSS in Syriac plus book 8, the link I gave you which is not in the 410 MS. Seems far fetched but I can't explain it any other way that makes sense. Judahites and Levites are the only Israelites from AD1 and I don't see anyone who wasn't a Herodian Jew like Paul becoming a Nazarene like Stephen would have been, as 'Christian" wasn't coined yet.

It's a bit of a wrench but other than that a perfect fit for the Ascents.

I provided a link to Philo on the Essenes earlier.

In addition to the information which he gives that would make it impossible to identify the Essenes as the Qumran sect about weapons and that they would have nothing to do with them which proves fallacious the notion suggested by one member that they carried weapons, but for protection only, as Philo knew them, Pliny or whoever said that didn't.

Both can't be true either. Pliny may have been right about weapons being carried but nobody carries a weapon if they are a pacifist like Philo describes them as.

How to resolve this...

Well, as it is, Hasidim is a name used by the Qumran sect meaning pious in Hebrew/Aramaic (modern Hebrew didn't exist then, Aramaic is Phoenician script and called proto-Hebrew, so it is confusing regarding the difference between paleo Hebrew and Aramaic, Phoenician, I can see almost no difference between the 3).

Piety is the meaning behind Essene, according to Philo, not in any Greek language word, and Philo didn't know the word it came from.

How Chesed becomes Essene, Ossean and Esseni, different forms I have seen, is not something I know. But I can guess.

Hesed, Hesidim, Hessenoi, H is often dropped in pronunciation and transliteration, Essenoi.

Probably Hesed, Hessen, Essen, Essenoi or Esseni being the plural.

Odd that Josephus didn't say, he should have known the etymology.

But how have scholars missed this?

When they are so desperate to make the connection and use Philo to do so all the time?

How did I miss it?

And how did Philo not know about their militant aspirations?

They were secretive, he was a Roman Aristocrat, a Jew of the Alexander family, as in Salome Alexander/Queen Salome(earlier) and they would not have told him under those circumstances, if they did he could have informed on them.

So it's natural they didn't tell outsiders their plans. Especially Roman sympathisers like Philo, a Hellenist.

And my own theory is wrong, as I never noticed that Philo said piety/hesed was the meaning of Essene in Greek from Hebrew which is Hesed.

Since the DSS mention Hesed and Hasidim (a&e=Aleph both) frequently, I think I have my answer.

Seriously though how has no scholar noticed this? I have read so many arguments using Philo to support the Essene theory of the DSS as their identity, desperately.

Never heard one mention this easily deduced connection, even without being able to speak Hebrew it is still obvious if you know enough words.

They should have noticed.