The Left kills children by letting Terrorists in the UK Terror Attack should be a Wake Up Call

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
OP what do you want???

A Travel ban would not have stopped this because the bomber was a British national.

Do you understand then how utterly stupid it is to say that a travel ban would have prevented this??

I really hate how after something like this happens ATS descends into a racist cesspit. And yes in the context of UK law quite a bit of this would be arguably racist.

The only way you will ever 100% stop terrorists is if you lock up the entire population 24/7 with no access to the outside world.

This stupid argument of "Send them all back to their own countries" is so stupid i cannot believe it even exists.

And its not a left vs right issue is a right vs wrong issue terrorism is wrong and terrorists dont give to shakes of a cats tail if you vote right or left.

Restricted immigration can stop home grown terrorism. Reducing the support network, resources and potential for brain washing from radicals who enter the country should all be considerations. Add restrictions to the internet, and punish hate speech more fully, and it helps cut the source of radicalisation.

a reply to: Tempter

Holy crap, you're saying accidentally killing some kids is OK? Well, I applaud you for your honesty Mr. Monster.

Of course, when we accidentally kill those kids, everyone who loved them should be cool with that and not angry at us and definitely not want to kill us or our kids right?

News flash: We don't just bomb Mosques, we bomb hospitals, schools, and some times we just shoot people for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (regardless of their affiliation). If this is all OK by you then how are you any different from the terrorist who thinks killing our innocent children is a worthwhile endeavor to further their cause?

You are the same thing you're railing against. I suggest if you want to see what kind of person a terrorist is that could kill innocent children, you need only look in a mirror.

I just wanted to say that I am very happy that there isn't a partisan hack thread trying to exploit the deaths of children for political purposes. Thanks for keeping it classy ATS!

originally posted by: Wayfarer
a reply to: Tempter

Holy crap, you're saying accidentally killing some kids is OK? Well, I applaud you for your honesty Mr. Monster.

Of course, when we accidentally kill those kids, everyone who loved them should be cool with that and not angry at us and definitely not want to kill us or our kids right?

News flash: We don't just bomb Mosques, we bomb hospitals, schools, and some times we just shoot people for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (regardless of their affiliation). If this is all OK by you then how are you any different from the terrorist who thinks killing our innocent children is a worthwhile endeavor to further their cause?

You are the same thing you're railing against. I suggest if you want to see what kind of person a terrorist is that could kill innocent children, you need only look in a mirror.

Why don't you show me where I said the result was OK. Stop putting words in my mouth, apologist.

Facts
1) We don't intentionally target kids.

2) They intentionally target kids.


What is your malfunction discerning the difference between the two?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

I just wanted to say that I am very happy that there isn't a partisan hack thread trying to exploit the deaths of children for political purposes. Thanks for keeping it classy ATS!

If wanting to protect children is "political", the I'm a politician!

originally posted by: Tempter
If wanting to protect children is "political", the I'm a politician!

Newsflash, this thread isn't protecting jack s***.

Stop giving them benefits, free housing, free healthcare, free education, and interpreters (we had one in court a couple of weeks ago here in the UK - been here 40 years can't speak a word of English) and they'll not only stop coming but a load will go home or to France or Germany instead.

Solves multiple problems in one easy step.

originally posted by: UKTruth

I see your thinking and I actually think it would have been a good route maybe 30-40 years ago.

One problem now is that your solution will take decades to 'come out of the oven', but more importantly you are assuming that these terrorists think like you do.

Not at all. This will work precisely because they do not. They are not playing the long game. They are not sitting on years and years of stocks of weapons and ammunition, nor are they sitting on years and years of spare parts for their warmachines, warmachines we left behind or gave to our false allies in the region, who fled and left them behind. They do not have the resources necessary to survive without suckling at the teat of the circular flow of money that WE put into their activities. Saudi Arabia, for all their wealth, will not be financing them alone. Absent the impetus our nation and the US financial and material aid gives them, their methods would see them burn out, their warmachine grind to a halt, as fuel availability collapses for them, as rations fail to get to their men, as pay dries up totally. They do not think like me, they do not play the long game. That is not something they have EVER been much good at. Smash and grab, hit and run, quick, short strikes, expend maximum resource in short bursts... that is what they do, and although it is a great way to quickly take ground, it is not a doctrine which lends itself to holding it, not without the backing they receive through the back door, or the intelligence our least noble assets give them to work with. Starved of wargear, finances, the drugs and the food which keep their movement going, they will shrivel like dead fruit on a starved vine.

You seem to believe that they will care if they can justify themselves to the world community. That's a big flaw in your solution in my view. What the root cause of the initial animus was is almost irrelevant now. The motivation right now is religious fanaticism. That is not going to change if we pull out of their countries or stop buying their oil or trading with them.

Again, I am not talking about how the organisation justifies its activities. I am talking about the movement as a whole. Many join its ranks because the alternatives are less pleasant. They know that those outside the movement, in areas where it is prevalent, are less able to find food and comfort than are those within it. They also know that to refuse to join if asked, could very well be a death sentence. There are members wandering the sands with rifles who do not really know why they are there, or if what they are doing is sound, morally, ethically, or logically, but are doing it anyway, because to refuse is danger deadly indeed. These people make up the majority of their rank and file, with a hardcore reserved for the most dangerous, stupid, or vile tasks.

You cannot reach the hardcore, because they would happily die of thirst (the most utterly awful way to go) than ever quit, because they are dyed in the wool psychopaths, devoted to death. But the rest? You could starve them out and make them quit, and they outnumber the real bastards, the total zealots by a great many. This would create a situation where either the regulars killed the real freaks to free themselves, or the freaks kill the majority of their own men, simply to ensure purity of purpose. Either would reduce the combat effectiveness and manpower of any unit involved.

IN terms of the military, how can they just be at our borders? Are you saying that organisations like NATO should not be able to deploy joint forces on foreign lands? No trade and no military coordination sounds like isolationism to me.

NATO can do what it likes, but what we cannot do, is involve ourselves with conflicts not our own. I have no problem with NATO, but our nation and that of the USA have both a terrible international reputation, when it comes to military action, a reputation by the way, which we have earned. Our nations leaders have been the biggest schemers and economic terrorists for YEARS! Thatcher, Major, Bloody stinking, stupid, Red Tory bastard Blair, and so on down the years, have made choices about war based on nothing but the amount of money that could be earned for their friends by the doing of it. NATO has a place in the world, but we are not fit to represent it, because our nations conduct has been nothing short of unethical and unreasonable for decades. We are aggressors, not peacemakers. Until that changes, until our diplomacy is the most used tool in the box, rather than the most scoffed at, we have no business acting on behalf of NATO or anyone else. We simply have not the moral high ground necessary to make that an effective proposition in any theatre.

There is a clear and present danger to deal with.

You are playing the long game, I see that, but you can't possibly have any substantiated confidence that it would solve the issue. In the meantime innocent people, including citizens of this country, are going to die.

As proven by last nights tragic and utterly disgusting events, citizens of this country are already dying, despite our current foreign policy choices, and those which have come before. We blew up Iraq and Afghanistan, and oh look, it created more terror. We kept feeding "rebel groups" weapons and materials for war, and oh look, those turned out to be groups which were part of IS all along, which our intelligence assets on the ground either neglected to mention, or knew all along. The alternatives have all been tried UKTruth, all the ones which are anything less than out and out genocide, and none of them have worked. People died last night, yes, because a radical zealot blew himself up in a crowded place, but also because the geopolitical circumstances our nation created, permitted that to be a reality, a funded, supported reality.

Immigration restriction, deportations

Based on what specific parameters? I am open to suggestions on that point. Seems to me that hate preachers and those found conspiring with the enemy ought to be eligible to be removed to any location on Earth, regardless of the threat it might pose to them to be there.

and tougher sentencing would still apply as a short term set of measures, even if the long game was appropriate.

Your intelligence solution sounds like complete and total access to our information... I don't think that is needed. Rather I would deploy it to the Muslim community as that is where the problem lies.

Actually, I specifically said that I do not want anyone tracked using GCHQs data collection service. If I was in any way influential in government, I would have that system burned, and its operators thrown in prison, in solitary confinement for life as a punishment for treason against the people of the Kingdom and the violation of their rights.

a reply to: Stevemagegod

You do realize that while we spend trillions on military might and dreaming up new ways to kill people, MILLIONS of children are starving to death all over the world? Should I make a headline and claim that the right is killing millions of children?

Evil people will find a way to do evil things...fanatics and fundamentalists will find a way to make themselves be heard...whether violently or another way.

Deflecting the blame to a political philosophy that doesn't agree with your own is a tenuous thread, and honestly, it cheapens the lives of those who died in this TERRORIST attack. The terrorists don't care who is in office...

Multiculturalism only works if it's slow, methodical, careful, and controlled.

Second generation muslims who have citizenship seem to be the ones easily targeted and manipulated. Perhaps their parents have resentments that they are passing on to their children. Or, maybe infiltration (trojan horse) takes a couple of decades to come to fruition and now, mixed with a brand new influx of mass immigration from these regions, you have a kettle of seething hatred just waiting to spill out on western grounds.

originally posted by: Tempter

originally posted by: Wayfarer
a reply to: Tempter

No sir, you and people like you are the reason we are in this mess. I'll bet you believe it best to hit kids who hit other kids to teach them hitting is wrong, eh?

And he wasn't apologizing for Muslims, he was stating that we have done and continue to do awful things to these people (killing them in far greater numbers) and sicko's like you think that's jolly good and justified.

"Doing awful things" like:

1) eradicate murderous leaders and their regimes

2) Sacrifice our own lives to help train theirs to police and secure

3) Try to bring about a democracy so they can have peace and prosperity

We're so awful!

It's not our fault these DESCENDANTS and FRIENDS of terrorists go on to fight like their murderous parents.

If you can't see a difference in what we do with good intentions VS the INTENTIONAL murder of innocent children, you are lost.

Add this to the end of all 3 of your points: So that the US held oligarchs and corporations can profit.

That would make your points ultimately correct.

originally posted by: queenofswords
Multiculturalism only works if it's slow, methodical, careful, and controlled.

Second generation muslims who have citizenship seem to be the ones easily targeted and manipulated. Perhaps their parents have resentments that they are passing on to their children. Or, maybe infiltration (trojan horse) takes a couple of decades to come to fruition and now, mixed with a brand new influx of mass immigration from these regions, you have a kettle of seething hatred just waiting to spill out on western grounds.

I believe it's third generation that are usually the problem - they neither belong to the culture their parents came from, nor the one in the country they've been born into.

Always happens, always will - that's why it's a bad idea to have so many of them here.

I think this thread is a new low in how we conduct ourselves on ATS.

Quite sad.

a reply to: Stevemagegod
Macron isn't a leftist you ignorant f*ck. Blaming the acts of madmen on liberals is the act of a madman.
Never mind that most terrorists involved in attacks in western society are home grown. Why are there so many idiots in this world. I mean we all have google right? It's not hard to look sh*t up and read from time to time.
The older I get the more I realize that that are certain people in this world that simply can't be reasoned with or convinced with a rational argument, we often call them fundamentalists. And these horrible f*ckers come in all shapes and sizes!

Sick and stupid thread.

1) We don't have a left wing government in the UK and haven't for 30+ years
2) Guy wasn't an immigrant or refugee
3) You claim the left are solely to blame yet don't condemn the bomber or 70 years of neo-con policy that created directly created Qutbism and Political Islam.
4) You don't even know the facts of the case or the country and play directly into the hands of terrorists by trying to create more division and infighting instead of unifying to condemn and stop terrorism.

Shame on you.

originally posted by: introvert
I think this thread is a new low in how we conduct ourselves on ATS.

Quite sad.

No.

Everyone is angry.

For some, this attack may have hit closer to home than others. We've had years, decades of "talk" about solutions, but people still die at the hands of these vile cowards.

There's so much talk about trying to understand the motivation and the thoughts behinds these cowardly scum, yet people are attacking and not taking a single god damned minute to think about the hurt, the anger, the fear that so many are having right now.

People respond to stress in many different ways. If you're expecting rational calm and a deeper understanding of the "needs" of these putrid cowards, then you're in the wrong place.

I'm angry. I'm pissed. Every god damned time I see this sh#t.

Some express it the only way they know how.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
For some, this attack may have hit closer to home than others. We've had years, decades of "talk" about solutions, but people still die at the hands of these vile cowards.

We've also had years of blowing these people up with bombs to no avail either. They just turn around and use that violence against them to radicalize someone else. Usually a kid with freshly slain parents.

People respond to stress in many different ways. If you're expecting rational calm and a deeper understanding of the "needs" of these putrid cowards, then you're in the wrong place.

I'm angry. I'm pissed. Every god damned time I see this sh#t.

That doesn't excuse the OP for scapegoating liberals and the left because of the attack.

a reply to: Tempter

I'm going to have to speak very plainly and simply for you to understand this.

When we accidentally kill kids, kids die.

When terrorist intentionally kill kids, kids die.

Ignorant individuals like yourself seem to think that if its an accident, its ok.

The families of those children killed 'accidentally' don't care. They hate us for accidentally killing their kids, and they have every right too. You cannot wage war without civilian casualties. If you think that the reason for killing kids makes all the difference, then you are equally as atrocious as the terrorists.

Thank you for showing us just how repugnant your views are.

a reply to: DBCowboy

I understand. This is a very emotional issue.

Being the person I am, I do not knee-jerk and try to place blame on people that are standing beside me...hurting just as much as I.

I see a lot of that in this thread. We're blaming each other and tearing ourselves down.

That is sad.

a reply to: introvert

If you're a better person, then BE a better person.

Hell, the way I felt last night, seeing the news unfold, if I hadn't of shut down my computer, I'd have been banned. I was that angry. Emotional.

People are going to grieve, react how they do.