The Left kills children by letting Terrorists in the UK Terror Attack should be a Wake Up Call

originally posted by: UKTruth
SNIP

These measures are already in place and are being updated next month (though without knowing the full details I agree whoever was distributing that literature on site should have been reported and the mosque has a duty to stop distribution of such material immediately, which may or may not have been done). His Mum, extended family, family friends, Imam and neighbours reported him and he was kicked out the mosque for saying 'that's bollocks' to a sermon denouncing ISIS and the Libyan community in Manchester had been warning authorities of an active recruitment cell for several years. Despite all this the government didn't use a TPIM to track him or ban him from returning to the UK.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a debate on what more can be done to prevent tragedies like this, as we should never get complacent but you seem to be ignoring the blatantly obvious failures of the state to blame all Muslims or immigrants despite their attempts to prevent this.

Encouranging people to come forward and spreading awareness of how do detect radicalism are brilliant things, but if the intelligence is not followed up it's futile and people would likely be less inclined to report concerns when they're ignored.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: UKTruth

Well there is not anything new that they can do. They ALREADY speak out against terrorist action, they ALREADY report on terrorist activity to the authorities, and they cannot do anything more than that, NO one short of the intelligence services can, and they had every opportunity, but failed to act. THAT is the ONLY failure that needs addressing here.

Sure, some speak out.. it is not embedded in the community though. Take Prevent as an example, an inappropriate program that is more a top down govt. initiative somewhat targeted and forced upon the Muslim community. Why is there nothing like Prevent, but more bottom up that has sprung from the Muslim community? There is plenty of money flowing into Muslim groups and organisations, but I don;t see the real organisation across the community to really pull the effort together. In some cases the contrary - as in the case of extremists being invited to speak.

Where were the throngs of Muslim protesters when people like Abdul Hamse were publicly spreading bile. I saw a few protesters but again nothing organised to the scale that could have shut him down. You think people like Hamse still don't exist here in this country? Why are they not being shut down by their own Muslim communities or at least where is the show of force that rejects them? I do however see big shows of force protesting America and demanding a caliphate - like the one outside the Syrian embassy. Where was the counter protest then from the Muslim community?

originally posted by: bastion

originally posted by: UKTruth
SNIP

These measures are already in place and are being updated next month (though without knowing the full details I agree whoever was distributing that literature on site should have been reported and the mosque has a duty to stop distribution of such material immediately, which may or may not have been done). His Mum, extended family, family friends, Imam and neighbours reported him and he was kicked out the mosque for saying 'that's bollocks' to a sermon denouncing ISIS. Despite all this the government didn't use a TPIM to track him or ban him from returning to the UK.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a debate on what more can be done to prevent tragedies like this, as we should never get complacent but you seem to be ignoring the blatantly obvious failures of the state to blame all Muslims or immigrants despite their attempts to prevent this.

Don't get me wrong - the state failed miserably and continue to do so. Quite apart from the intelligence and policing failures, Prevent is an absurdity as an example - not in it's intent but in it's execution.

The discussion I want the Muslim community to engage in and be vocal about is what more they can do to help. A view they are doing everything they possibly can and that no more can be done doesn't ring true, especially when we see instances of hate being spread.

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: UKTruth

All Mosques across the country can ban the distribution of materials that denigrate Western culture

That's pathetic isn't it? Denigrating Western culture isn't a crime and it's certainly not exclusive to the Muslim culture - if all Muslims denigrate it. Can we ban Farage for his comments about not wanting Polish people living next door to him? You do know that the statement given by the person on Question Time is also being questioned as to its accuracy - and even was on the programme.

Whistleblowers could come forward to advise authorities on schools that are preaching hatred

The already do and are supported by the police and local authorities as part of the Prevent strategy - you didn't know that either? Whistleblowers came forward in this atrocity prior to it happening, why do you keep pretending they didn't?

Muslim leaders and organisations immediately stop inviting radicals to speak at the gatherings

IF they are inciting hate, inciting violence then yes, but not just because their views don't match yours - not very likely they would though.

Imams across the country can immediately introduce new materials and language into Mosques that promote the sharing of ideas and integration in the community.

Ohhh, fluffy community stuff that you have been so quick to disparage in this thread....... sad, pathetic. You are part of the problem, not the solution.

No, stopping the spread of hate and the poisoning of minds is not something we have to accept. On one had you cry about Islamaphobia and on the other you are comfortable for Western culture to be denigrated by hate speech handed out at religious gatherings. You are a hypocrite.

I have mentioned Prevent you dufus and it is a nonsense. Not working, which is pretty much agreed by both Muslims and those that run it. Perhaps you should find out a bit more.

In the example i gave it took an undercover reporter with a hidden video camera to uncover the goings on at that particular Muslim school. So no, whistleblowing is not pervasive and Muslim families should be pulling their kids from that school.

What do you mean IF speakers are inciting hatred. That particular example resulted in the organisation having to hand back their grant.

Actually using Mosques to promote and spread a different message is not fluffy, like balloons and vigils after children die. This needs to be a consistent way of life. Take the action to change the message day in day out. Not complicated.

Your rebuttals are weak, which does not surprise me. Sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: bastion

originally posted by: UKTruth
SNIP

These measures are already in place and are being updated next month (though without knowing the full details I agree whoever was distributing that literature on site should have been reported and the mosque has a duty to stop distribution of such material immediately, which may or may not have been done). His Mum, extended family, family friends, Imam and neighbours reported him and he was kicked out the mosque for saying 'that's bollocks' to a sermon denouncing ISIS. Despite all this the government didn't use a TPIM to track him or ban him from returning to the UK.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a debate on what more can be done to prevent tragedies like this, as we should never get complacent but you seem to be ignoring the blatantly obvious failures of the state to blame all Muslims or immigrants despite their attempts to prevent this.

Don't get me wrong - the state failed miserably and continue to do so. Quite apart from the intelligence and policing failures, Prevent is an absurdity as an example - not in it's intent but in it's execution.

The discussion I want the Muslim community to engage in and be vocal about is what more they can do to help. A view they are doing everything they possibly can and that no more can be done doesn't ring true, especially when we see instances of hate being spread.

First thing in this thread I completely agree with you on.

The Muslim Council of Great Britain launched an iniative to correct the massive failures of Prevent and have been instrumental in creating it's replacement that is launced next fortnight.

a reply to: UKTruth

UKTruth,

The Muslim community, Prevent or no, are and always have been the prime, number one source of information about local extremism, in this country. The reason no official initiatives exist or at least, no widely publicised ones, is because the Muslim communities in this country do not NEED to be told or shown what to do in the event that a person they know, becomes radicalised. They already know, and they not only know what to do, but they do it too.

If they did not, there would be far more successful attacks than there are.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: UKTruth

1). Most Mosques don't invite radicals. For those that do there are existing laws on hate speech that could be enforced. Responsibility with the police and courts not the wider Muslim community.

2). Don't know what material was but same answer above may apply.

3). Most mosques do promote good community relations.

4). The home secretary said today that the majority of intelligence received comes from within the community, not from low level policing. They are already doing what you are asking.

1) That example was talking about mosques. It was an invite from an organisation to a radical. It is not the polices responsibility to make any organisation have the good sense not to use tax payer money to invite radicals to speak to the Muslim community.

2) It is not the police's job to stop a Mosque allowing hateful material to be handed out. They can be punished for it, but the information will still spread unless the Muslim community stop it from within.

3) Most does not cut it. The Imams in this country could come together - hell even fund them - to ensure a more consistent message.

4) In the example I gave it took an undercover reporter. The police are talking about terrorist threats, but they are not talking about the start of radicalisation in schools. Like I said, why have the parents not pulled their kids from that school?

The argument of 'most do' is unhelpful, because in the current scenario hate is still spreading and people are still dying.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: UKTruth

UKTruth,

The Muslim community, Prevent or no, are and always have been the prime, number one source of information about local extremism, in this country. The reason no official initiatives exist or at least, no widely publicised ones, is because the Muslim communities in this country do not NEED to be told or shown what to do in the event that a person they know, becomes radicalised. They already know, and they not only know what to do, but they do it too.

If they did not, there would be far more successful attacks than there are.

The reality is the examples I gave, not a generic 'most' statement. We're not talking about 'most'. We're talking about the spread of a hateful ideology that is poisoning the minds of kids and young people in the Muslim community, not only intelligence that could have stopped someone once they are already radicalised.

You want to live in the world of 100% blame the state (as usual for you) and 0% more that the Muslim community could do. That is what you said. It is not the right approach.

originally posted by: bastion

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: bastion

originally posted by: UKTruth
SNIP

These measures are already in place and are being updated next month (though without knowing the full details I agree whoever was distributing that literature on site should have been reported and the mosque has a duty to stop distribution of such material immediately, which may or may not have been done). His Mum, extended family, family friends, Imam and neighbours reported him and he was kicked out the mosque for saying 'that's bollocks' to a sermon denouncing ISIS. Despite all this the government didn't use a TPIM to track him or ban him from returning to the UK.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a debate on what more can be done to prevent tragedies like this, as we should never get complacent but you seem to be ignoring the blatantly obvious failures of the state to blame all Muslims or immigrants despite their attempts to prevent this.

Don't get me wrong - the state failed miserably and continue to do so. Quite apart from the intelligence and policing failures, Prevent is an absurdity as an example - not in it's intent but in it's execution.

The discussion I want the Muslim community to engage in and be vocal about is what more they can do to help. A view they are doing everything they possibly can and that no more can be done doesn't ring true, especially when we see instances of hate being spread.

First thing in this thread I completely agree with you on.

The Muslim Council of Great Britain launched an iniative to correct the massive failures of Prevent and have been instrumental in creating it's replacement that is launced next fortnight.

The Muslim Council Of GB initiative looks like a great step - here's an immediate thing the Muslim communities all over the country could do... expand it. It is currently growing but has much farther to grow (I think less than a thousand schools , businesses and Mosques are involved at the moment).

It is heartening though to see this.

a reply to: UKTruth

It just so happens that my stance on these things is borne out by the very reality you accuse me of ignoring.

Enjoy your Reich while it lasts. It will burn either way, but if I were you, I would leave it behind you, lest you get caught in the fire.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: UKTruth

It just so happens that my stance on these things is borne out by the very reality you accuse me of ignoring.

Enjoy your Reich while it lasts. It will burn either way, but if I were you, I would leave it behind you, lest you get caught in the fire.

What a stupid reply...
Almost as stupid as thinking the Muslim community can do not a thing more to help.

Fortunately it appears they themselves disagree with you as it looks like more is about to be done, at least via the replacement to Prevent. It's a step.

a reply to: UKTruth

No, stopping the spread of hate and the poisoning of minds is not something we have to accept. On one had you cry about Islamaphobia and on the other you are comfortable for Western culture to be denigrated by hate speech handed out at religious gatherings. You are a hypocrite.

"Denigrating Western culture" is not poisoning anyones mind in and of itself. If it promotes hate and violence then it is, and becomes a criminal matter. You have spent the entire thread denigrating one culture but you don't want another to have the power of free speech within the letter of the law - how does that work exactly?

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: UKTruth

No, stopping the spread of hate and the poisoning of minds is not something we have to accept. On one had you cry about Islamaphobia and on the other you are comfortable for Western culture to be denigrated by hate speech handed out at religious gatherings. You are a hypocrite.

"Denigrating Western culture" is not poisoning anyones mind in and of itself. If it promotes hate and violence then it is, and becomes a criminal matter. You have spent the entire thread denigrating one culture but you don't want another to have the power of free speech within the letter of the law - how does that work exactly?

The only 'culture' I have denigrated and will continue to do so is radical islamic terrorism.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: UKTruth

No, stopping the spread of hate and the poisoning of minds is not something we have to accept. On one had you cry about Islamaphobia and on the other you are comfortable for Western culture to be denigrated by hate speech handed out at religious gatherings. You are a hypocrite.

"Denigrating Western culture" is not poisoning anyones mind in and of itself. If it promotes hate and violence then it is, and becomes a criminal matter. You have spent the entire thread denigrating one culture but you don't want another to have the power of free speech within the letter of the law - how does that work exactly?

The only 'culture' I have denigrated and will continue to do so is radical islamic terrorism.

Bollox, no it isn't, you say that when challenged and then talk about bans on Muslims, at least have courage in your utterly pathetic convictions.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: UKTruth

No, stopping the spread of hate and the poisoning of minds is not something we have to accept. On one had you cry about Islamaphobia and on the other you are comfortable for Western culture to be denigrated by hate speech handed out at religious gatherings. You are a hypocrite.

"Denigrating Western culture" is not poisoning anyones mind in and of itself. If it promotes hate and violence then it is, and becomes a criminal matter. You have spent the entire thread denigrating one culture but you don't want another to have the power of free speech within the letter of the law - how does that work exactly?

The only 'culture' I have denigrated and will continue to do so is radical islamic terrorism.

Bollox, no it isn't, you say that when challenged and then talk about bans on Muslims, at least have courage in your utterly pathetic convictions.

A temporary ban on Muslims is necessary and it does not denigrate the Muslim culture. It is pragmatic to ensure terrorists are not being allowed into the country. We've been too lax in this country for years, which is why a terrorist posing as a refugee was allowed into this country in the 90's who went on to radicalise his sons and cause the deaths of innocents.

This has nothing to do with the Muslim culture - that is always conflated by the same people who cry racism. The Saudi's for example agree with the ban Trump was trying to put in place.

They praised President Trump as a “true friend of Muslims” all over the world and argued that his policies would make everyone safer and more prosperous… not just Americans, but citizens of the world.

Supporting such a ban is not ant-Muslim, unless you think Saudi's are anti-muslim too and are denigrating the muslim culture?

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: UKTruth

It just so happens that my stance on these things is borne out by the very reality you accuse me of ignoring.

Enjoy your Reich while it lasts. It will burn either way, but if I were you, I would leave it behind you, lest you get caught in the fire.

Trust me. We will. This Reich is giving everyone a Good Dose of Reality.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: UKTruth

It just so happens that my stance on these things is borne out by the very reality you accuse me of ignoring.

Enjoy your Reich while it lasts. It will burn either way, but if I were you, I would leave it behind you, lest you get caught in the fire.

What a stupid reply...
Almost as stupid as thinking the Muslim community can do not a thing more to help.

Fortunately it appears they themselves disagree with you as it looks like more is about to be done, at least via the replacement to Prevent. It's a step.

IMHO, the most that the wider community can do is stop this fear and alienation of Muslims and migrants. It's the whole culture of fear and intimidation which is going to encourage already vulnerable individuals into the open arms of death cults. I can't speak to what further the Muslim community at a whole can do, for I am not Muslim. I can say, however that it's up to us all, to create a welcoming, safe community despite differences in culture, religion and background which feels more inviting than those death cults.

That is not to say that there won't be "bad seeds". We give the authorities the help they need, and allow them to root out the troublemakers.

You see this in other areas, when communities are close-knit, the youth have a higher sense of belonging.

a reply to: UKTruth

It isnt radicalism of extremism that's ultimately the problem. These things do both spring into existence from nowhere.

These are the logical conclusions arrived at from a faith and belief system that is intolerant, bigoted and frankly dangerous. They are incompatible with modern society. Their aims are expansion and ultimately a Muslim world. These are your so called moderates, who most would see as bat# mental. Moderate Islam is the birthplace of ALL Islamic terror. They don't want to associate with it publicly because then their masks would slip.

If people really knew what went on in mosques around Europe I think feelings would change.

a reply to: Stevemagegod

My God, you have the mind of a child. No matter what side of the fence me or you are on, your argument is like a childs.

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: UKTruth

That's it?

I'm sorry, at what point did I become your slave? Don't you know how to use a search engine?

The second is about some Muslim leaders condemning the act, but there is nothing about what they are going to do to help.

What an interesting comment - would you expect people to become vigilantes, or work with the police to push back at radicalisation (which they do) and report suspicious activities to the police (which they not only do, but actually did in this case, highlighting to police their concern about the rhetoric of the person who became the perpetrator)?

You really don't care about information do you?

IIRC some polls show significant percent say they won't report those suspected of being involved in terrorist activities. And if that is so it is likely a larger percent because we have to remember taqiya.