Single Payer System Would (At Least) Double New York State Budget

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated
Can someone point to a situation in which government has actually lowered costs in any industry?

Health care in any other developed country?

The fact they aren't paying does not mean costs are lower. Government has never lowered costs as far as I can tell in any industry. The free market and innovation is the primary driver of lower costs.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated
Can someone point to a situation in which government has actually lowered costs in any industry?

Health care in any other developed country?

The fact they aren't paying does not mean costs are lower. Government has never lowered costs as far as I can tell in any industry. The free market and innovation is the primary driver of lower costs.

The US pays more as a % of GDP than any other developed country and gets worse outcomes.
Costs are lower in countries with a single payer system.


The free market is one driver of lower costs, it just doesn't work in healthcare.

I live in NY. Our state has some of the highest taxes in the country. One of our counties has THE highest taxes in the country.

Everyone I know is barely treading water when it comes to finances. The guy that runs our local laundrymat puts home foreclosures on a notice board - they go to auction and he wants everyone to know when and where they auctions are (he thinks he's helping us out, get first homes or something) and there are new foreclosures EVERY WEEK. I live in a small town. Every week someone is losing their home. This is during a zombie home crisis where there are dozens of homes in our area that are abandoned and no one is willing to buy. No one has money anymore.

If they were to double or quadruple out taxes, everyone in my town would be homeless. Literally everyone. No one could afford to pay taxes anymore. The idea is absurd. But this is socialism. If no one can afford to pay healthcare because it's too expensive, how does offsourcing everyone's healthcare to everyone make it more affordable? Somehow quoting "the taxpayer" makes it seem like it's magical elves who pay for it. No. Socializing something doesn't make that thing more affordable, it just collapses the house of cards and makes everyone's life more miserable and poorer than it it was before now they can't opt out and are forced into debt they can't pay!

If this passes I will be moving to a red state.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated
Can someone point to a situation in which government has actually lowered costs in any industry?

Health care in any other developed country?

The fact they aren't paying does not mean costs are lower. Government has never lowered costs as far as I can tell in any industry. The free market and innovation is the primary driver of lower costs.

The US pays more as a % of GDP than any other developed country and gets worse outcomes.
Costs are lower in countries with a single payer system.


The free market is one driver of lower costs, it just doesn't work in healthcare.

US has the most advanced health care system in the world. We have much better outcomes. Don't fall for that propaganda used to promote socialized healthcare. There is a reason the elites from those countries come hear for their major healthcare needs.

The free market lowers costs. The problem is that we haven't had a free market in healthcare by in large. To see it in action, all one has to do is look at elective medicine like plastic surgery which is seeing vastly cheaper prices and innovations because insurance for the most part is not taken. Lasik, boob jobs, butt implants, nose jobs, etc are all relatively cheap because doctors compete and there isn't a third party payor involved.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated
Can someone point to a situation in which government has actually lowered costs in any industry?

Health care in any other developed country?

The fact they aren't paying does not mean costs are lower. Government has never lowered costs as far as I can tell in any industry. The free market and innovation is the primary driver of lower costs.

The US pays more as a % of GDP than any other developed country and gets worse outcomes.
Costs are lower in countries with a single payer system.


The free market is one driver of lower costs, it just doesn't work in healthcare.

Costs are not lower in single payer systems. Most of the Nordic countries like Sweden, which are all so often quoted by socialists as being wonderful models are right now experiencing crushing debt because they can't afford all their welfare programs.

Free market does drive down costs. The problem with out healthcare system is there's no competition. Doctors know that insurance will pay any price for their operation. Who are they competing against when Medicaid picks up the bill? Nobody.

Repealing obamacare isn't enough. Eliminate the insurance companies and make everyone pay out of pocket for healthcare. The prices will crash because who is a doctor going to charge $20,000 for an operation, when no one has $20,000 in their bank account? Either he drastically adjusts his price or he goes out of business.

Out of pocket is the best way. It forces any market into extreme price competition and drives increasing efficiency.

Trying to find anyone else to pay for your healthcare, whether it's insurance, the government, the rich, or the taxpayers, drives stagnation, corruption, and increasing prices through a lack of competition.

What I would wish is that every time a capitalist society goes socialist and inevitably collapses from it's stupidity, is that all the stupid people would die and are removed from the gene pool. Unfortunately this doesn't happen. It's the capitalists that are hurt the most and all of humanity suffers as a result.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Charlyboy

That's weird. My kid had an x-ray and minor surgery (to remove a foreign object he ate) for under $1,000 with no insurance a few years ago.

I had a stint put in my heart in 2011 in Jersey City. The hospital charge my insurance provide $262,000 for about 10 minutes of work and 3 days in the hospital. The insurance provider got it knocked down by 50% eventually. That's more money that I would probably save from my take home pay in my lifetime.

And that's the entire problem with our health care in the US.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Dfairlite

The hospitals are overcharging. We need a government take over to get costs under control.

You have it exactly backwards.

Hospitals and health care facilities must have entire departments of multiple staff to handle the bureaucratic mess that is government involvement in healthcare. They also have to make up lost ground when the government and the insurance companies say "Meh, we decided we'll only pay you half of your costs on that exam".

Or, in order to meet some arbitrary safety regulation that the government has put in place JUST FOR HOSPITALS, the hospital must install 50k worth of elevator doors. And that list of expensive minutia goes on and on and on and on. That is government involvement in your health care.

Now, medical equipment companies, those are overcharging. Insurance companies are for the most part, (although there are some exceptions) making serious money. While healthcare providers and facilities are struggling to survive. It's easy to blame the ones providing care as they are the most visible, and the government has done plenty to encourage that too while absolving themselves from responsibility.

You are wrong. Just dead wrong.

originally posted by: peskyhumans

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated
Can someone point to a situation in which government has actually lowered costs in any industry?

Health care in any other developed country?

The fact they aren't paying does not mean costs are lower. Government has never lowered costs as far as I can tell in any industry. The free market and innovation is the primary driver of lower costs.

The US pays more as a % of GDP than any other developed country and gets worse outcomes.
Costs are lower in countries with a single payer system.


The free market is one driver of lower costs, it just doesn't work in healthcare.

Costs are not lower in single payer systems. Most of the Nordic countries like Sweden, which are all so often quoted by socialists as being wonderful models are right now experiencing crushing debt because they can't afford all their welfare programs.

Free market does drive down costs. The problem with out healthcare system is there's no competition. Doctors know that insurance will pay any price for their operation. Who are they competing against when Medicaid picks up the bill? Nobody.

Repealing obamacare isn't enough. Eliminate the insurance companies and make everyone pay out of pocket for healthcare. The prices will crash because who is a doctor going to charge $20,000 for an operation, when no one has $20,000 in their bank account? Either he drastically adjusts his price or he goes out of business.

Out of pocket is the best way. It forces any market into extreme price competition and drives increasing efficiency.

Trying to find anyone else to pay for your healthcare, whether it's insurance, the government, the rich, or the taxpayers, drives stagnation, corruption, and increasing prices through a lack of competition.

What I would wish is that every time a capitalist society goes socialist and inevitably collapses from it's stupidity, is that all the stupid people would die and are removed from the gene pool. Unfortunately this doesn't happen. It's the capitalists that are hurt the most and all of humanity suffers as a result.

Getting rid of insurance is not necessary. The problem now is that there is very little competition between insurance companies and regulations have made it hard for health insurance to be actuarial sound. Insurance has some of the lowest profit margins of any industry.

The biggest issue with healthcare is that the consumer is far removed from the cost and thus there is little to no incentive to shop around for non-emergency medical services. In addition, insurance coverage has been perverted to covering what really is health maintenance instead of being there for catastrophic incidences.

originally posted by: peskyhumans

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated
Can someone point to a situation in which government has actually lowered costs in any industry?

Health care in any other developed country?

The fact they aren't paying does not mean costs are lower. Government has never lowered costs as far as I can tell in any industry. The free market and innovation is the primary driver of lower costs.

The US pays more as a % of GDP than any other developed country and gets worse outcomes.
Costs are lower in countries with a single payer system.


The free market is one driver of lower costs, it just doesn't work in healthcare.

Costs are not lower in single payer systems. Most of the Nordic countries like Sweden, which are all so often quoted by socialists as being wonderful models are right now experiencing crushing debt because they can't afford all their welfare programs.

Free market does drive down costs. The problem with out healthcare system is there's no competition. Doctors know that insurance will pay any price for their operation. Who are they competing against when Medicaid picks up the bill? Nobody.

Repealing obamacare isn't enough. Eliminate the insurance companies and make everyone pay out of pocket for healthcare. The prices will crash because who is a doctor going to charge $20,000 for an operation, when no one has $20,000 in their bank account? Either he drastically adjusts his price or he goes out of business.

Out of pocket is the best way. It forces any market into extreme price competition and drives increasing efficiency.

Trying to find anyone else to pay for your healthcare, whether it's insurance, the government, the rich, or the taxpayers, drives stagnation, corruption, and increasing prices through a lack of competition.

What I would wish is that every time a capitalist society goes socialist and inevitably collapses from it's stupidity, is that all the stupid people would die and are removed from the gene pool. Unfortunately this doesn't happen. It's the capitalists that are hurt the most and all of humanity suffers as a result.

Rather annoyingly for your theory those Nordic countries have lower debt to GDP, higher standard of living and most importantly for this topic better rated healthcare systems .

The idea that making health care be paid out of product would be better is frankly ridiculous.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Edumakated
Can someone point to a situation in which government has actually lowered costs in any industry?

Health care in any other developed country?

The fact they aren't paying does not mean costs are lower. Government has never lowered costs as far as I can tell in any industry. The free market and innovation is the primary driver of lower costs.

The US pays more as a % of GDP than any other developed country and gets worse outcomes.
Costs are lower in countries with a single payer system.


The free market is one driver of lower costs, it just doesn't work in healthcare.

US has the most advanced health care system in the world. We have much better outcomes. Don't fall for that propaganda used to promote socialized healthcare. There is a reason the elites from those countries come hear for their major healthcare needs.

The free market lowers costs. The problem is that we haven't had a free market in healthcare by in large. To see it in action, all one has to do is look at elective medicine like plastic surgery which is seeing vastly cheaper prices and innovations because insurance for the most part is not taken. Lasik, boob jobs, butt implants, nose jobs, etc are all relatively cheap because doctors compete and there isn't a third party payor involved.

Show me a study that says the US has better outcomes? Despite spending nearly twice what any other country do, the US is consistently rated amongst the worst in the developed world for health care.

It may be best at the very highest end, but that is like saying the country with the best food is the one with the most Michelin stars. It may be true for the few % of earners but is hardly a realistic​ measure.

Free market dies lower costs for elective surgeries but that is because they are elective. Competition​ requires choice and it is not practical or efficient to get the required level of competition in healthcare.

a reply to: Charlyboy

That is why costings blow out. Sorry but money is more important than peoples lives nowadays.

The surprise comes when people forget that healthcare has become a business.

If you think that some mega entity gives a damn about you, or your family, you have set yourself up for disappointment. The only thing they are interested in is how much of your hard earned money they can get you to hand over to them.

The government, those lying arse people we elected and everyone is fighting about, don't care one bit about us once they have taken their seat. We are like the cellophane on a boxed item. Ripped off and quickly discarded.

a reply to: Dfairlite

The state of New York passed this bill before getting a score to find out what it would cost?

California has a similar Bill pending but at least they are going to find out the cost before attempting to pass it.