The Body and Blood of Christ

a reply to: Joecroft

Well, the physical aspects like body and blood are being matched up with the metaphorical i.e. Word/Truth and Spirit…I’ve pretty much gone with a strict Esoteric view…but I guess one could go with Exoteric and Esoteric view combined…

I was using the exoteric description but at the same time referring to the esoteric meaning, sorry for the confusion.

But yes, I do believe that the exoteric description can be used to reveal the esoteric meaning beneath it, that is the method I personally use to interpret the bible or any other holy book. I recently started reading the Quran (haven't gotten very far into it, I think I'm at the 2nd or 3rd Surah) and am digging up the meaning underneath there as well. It extends to all holy books.

This kinda gets into what your talking about, with the bread keeping you physically alive etc…Which is actually another key reason IMO, as to why the bread metaphor was used for Gods spiritual truth. The verse above expresses the idea that Spirit and Truth, is what leads to “real life”…

I agree with you. Bread is nutrition or knowledge, we gain knowledge (which leads to Wisdom) by eating the Bread (body). What is it that allows us to gain knowledge? The world and the experiences it gives us, it is the Bread of Life and as we experience it we "eat" it.

When you no longer take in or eat the Bread in a spiritual sense (learn the lessons the world has to teach us about ourselves) then you die spiritually and become spiritually blind.

Sorry for the confusion, I should have made what I meant a little more clear.

Sometimes I think this is a brilliant conception to hide truth so that others will seek it out etc…On other days I think the truth should just be spoken plainly. Unfortunately ,you/me/they will always be up against the “Religions Truth” lol…it’s the ultimate catch 22…

I know exactly how you feel lol. On one hand the way they set it up helped lead me to the truth (with the guidance of the Spirit of course) but on the other the way they have set it up has also led so many astray and has been a burden on the world.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted
Another interesting note, a stone is considered to be a "small rock". The two founders of the church are Paul and Peter, each name meaning "small" and "rock" respectively. A "small rock" is a stone which is what the church feeds its followers.

Yep…this is true…

Luke 11:11
“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?

I’m pretty sure that the fish symbol represents the Holy Spirit. The fish shape produces the "vesica picies" symbol, which IMO represents the Father/Spirit and Son/Soul union. The fish just like bread is also eaten or taken into oneself.

The snake in this context represents a leaning towards evil, a lie, or something which follows the ego, rather than spiritual truth…So it’s essentially talking about truth being given, as opposed to a lie…

But the funny thing is, in other manuscripts that exact same verse above is written as… “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone?

There’s a clear connection there, which is no coincidence. Bread is gods spoken truth again, which is in alignment with the verse talking about fish (really Holy Spirit)…and the Stone, which you’ve quite rightly pointed out, is something negative.

Personally I think your right…it represents the false physical church. The church built on a stone called religion. And not the true Rock founded on Wisdom, which Jesus really spoke about.


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

There’s a clear connection there, which is no coincidence. Bread is gods spoken truth again, which is in alignment with the verse talking about fish (really Holy Spirit)…and the Stone, which you’ve quite rightly pointed out, is something negative.

If you check Matthew 7:10 you'll see the fish and snake analogy being used right after the stone and bread analogy which only confirms your suspicions.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I was using the exoteric description but at the same time referring to the esoteric meaning, sorry for the confusion.

But yes, I do believe that the exoteric description can be used to reveal the esoteric meaning beneath it, that is the method I personally use to interpret the bible or any other holy book.

Oh I see…

It’s just that some people take the exoteric view by only deriving a literal meaning out of it, i.e. without using an esoteric view…

Where as some will look for meanings in both i.e. the literal exoteric and the inner esoteric…

Originally posted 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I recently started reading the Quran (haven't gotten very far into it, I think I'm at the 2nd or 3rd Surah) and am digging up the meaning underneath there as well. It extends to all holy books.

I found this lady on Youtube, who is a Sufi Muslim…she has a few videos where she talks about the deeper esoteric meanings, behind some Quranic verses. I’ve just started to get into it lately.

Also, take a look at some of Disturbinati’s posts and Sahabi’s…both have a good esoteric view on the Quran; one is a former Muslim (Sahabi) while the other is a practicing Muslim. 2 great posters IMO…

Originally posted 3NL1GHT3N3D1
When you no longer take in or eat the Bread in a spiritual sense (learn the lessons the world has to teach us about ourselves) then you die spiritually and become spiritually blind.

Sorry for the confusion, I should have made what I meant a little more clear.

That’s ok…

Originally posted 3NL1GHT3N3D1
If you check Matthew 7:10 you'll see the fish and snake analogy being used right after the stone and bread analogy which only confirms your suspicions.

Of course…

Stone = Church Truth…

Bread = Gods Truth

Snake = Lies and following Negative/Lower ego…

Fish = Truth and following Positive/Higher God self…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Of course…

Stone = Church Truth…

Bread = Gods Truth

Snake = Lies and following Negative/Lower ego…

Fish = Truth and following Positive/Higher God self…


- JC

Exactly! The snake represents the spine which is what connects the higher spiritual nature of man (mind/Spirit) to the lower physical nature of man (body/world). To follow the snake is to follow your lower nature just as you say.

I haven't really thought about the fish analogy yet but I'm guessing it has to do with baptism in some way, rising to your higher nature by first immersing yourself in water. I'll have to think of that a bit more to "untangle" it.

The Spirit is a given as far as a connection to fish and water but I usually picture the Spirit as air or wind. Both water and air do act similarly with cold water/air sinking and warm water/air rising, water/air currents and flows, etc.

There might be something to water and air that I'm missing, some kind of connection or twofold nature to the Spirit that accounts for both water and wind. Jesus said that things if the Spirit were like wind but also referred to it as water I believe so that's something that I need to figure out lol.

a reply to: mekhanics

what was seen in the OP is Roman Catholicism, a cult at best, but not true Christianity.

Before you parrot others teachings about Paul I challenge you to read the AV Cover to cover 7 times and compare Jesus teachings to that of Paul. What you will see if Paul expands on everyone of Jesus earthly teachings. Jesus gave no real practical details to his teachings. Once the Kingdom is postponed by Israels unbelief when they stoned Stephen Saul was called and to him Jesus gave the expounding of his teachings fr the world Jew and Gentile alike.

Stop following others and follow the word of God both the living and the preserved written word.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Those who think a serpent and a snake are the same are mistaken and ignorant to the word of God.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

3NL1GHT3N3D1 hasn't mentioned the word "serpent" in this entire thread.

I think you must be seeing things...


- JC

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Even though I never used the word, serpent and snake are interchangeable and have the same exact meaning, both in the dictionary and biblically speaking.

Where does the bible differentiate between snake and serpent? Help me to understand the difference between a snake and a serpent biblically and with scripture to back it up.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

though man may want you to believe that they are the same and interchangeable because they want to change and confuse God's Holy Truth, His Words.

Things that are different are not the same. A rule well to be followed. Best for you to do your own study and not follow men, even I. I want you to follow God's word not mine or others. So follow these following instructions.

Use a Bible program or a concordance (beware the dictionaries in the concordance lie they are not original meanings) search out all references to serpents and snakes both are used in your English AV the Only Bible that has all the verses in it Preserved for you in this generation. List them and print them cross reference those that are speaking of earthly snakes. And separate those which are not speaking of earthly snakes and you will see that there is an old serpent who is not a snake but a dragon, the Devil called Satan whose original name was Lucifer the anointed Cherub that covereth. He is also known as a Leviathan and a Behemoth.

I have stacks and stack of printouts on words from the English Av that show things that are different are not the same.

I have spent the last year and six months comparing Jesus teachings with Paul's and I am in amazement that there is so much Paul expounds on Jesus vague and under-detailed teachings. To which God inspired to Paul for us while we await Christs return. Those who claim Paul does not teach that which Jesus does are liars and have not done their homework in proper study of the AV bible as laid out in 2corithians and 2 Timothy 2:15. Jesus said we would know his doctrine and it was from God and Paul said all doctrine is by inspiration of God.

Keep studying it, don't follow men, follow the Holy Ghost who teaches us the word of God, and the word of God is spiritually discerned so you must be a believer that Christ died as a ransom for you on the cross, or you will never know the word of God and its truths.

a reply to: Joecroft

No he mentioned snake as in the garden but it was a serpent not a snake.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Originally posted ChesterJohn
No he mentioned snake as in the garden but it was a serpent not a snake.

Where does 3NL1GHT3N3D1 mention a “snake in the garden”…?

We were talking about the "snake" mentioned in Matthew 7:10, and the one found in other Manuscripts of Luke 11:11…


- JC

a reply to: ChesterJohn

A serpent and snake are the same exact thing with the serpent in the garden having the same word used as the serpent that Moses' staff turned into, even the bronze snake put on the top of his staff uses the same word to describe the snake/serpent.

Your idea that a snake and serpent are different doesn't seem to have anything to back it up which is why you suggest I take such a convoluted and difficult way.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Are you saying the same word in English or in Hebrew?

Yes in those instances we can see the earthly serpent is a snake and cannot be denied.

But the term Serpent is also used where it does not mean a snake and that is important.

Now our friend used the word "snake" which is never found in the AV. Which is why I questioned his use of snake by using the Biblical word serpent and not snake, seeing it is not found in the preserved word of God the AV for today seeing David said by inspiration he would prserve them(his words) to every generation for ever.

Here is the quote, Snake = Lies and following Negative/Lower ego… ". It was mixed in with other statements that are Biblical they had to do with God's truth, the church and therefore he unintended claim was that snake was a Biblical word.

The words God uses are very important. And I am not saying a serpent cannot be a snake but at times it is not a earthly snake but a person. God's words are so important that in Ps 119 he uses the words to describe his words as well they are as follows, Word, Ways, Commandments, Laws, Statutes, Precepts, Judgements, Testimonies, and Ordinances. Another word not found in Ps 119 but elsewhere is Decrees All of these are his words, as are terms like Parables, dark sayings, and truths. All these terms are God's word.

These words create Doctrine mostly for Israel, but later some were defined by God given to Paul for the church today that consist of both Jew and Gentile alike that expand om the teachings of Jesus during his earthly ministry. All doctrine according the Jesus and Paul is of God and is not of themselves.

The serpent was not a snake in the Garden but a Serpent, the old serpent. Another point to remember the serpent was not condemned to crawl on his belly until After he deceived Eve as found in Gen 3:14. So this tells us the Serpent in the Garden was not a ground slithering on his belly type of snake at the time he appeared to her in the garden. Something else to consider is that the serpent in not said to be in the tee as many depictions have him.

Now there are some instances of Serpent not being a snake, In these instance it is very important to set them aside in their own column of /Study and that is there you will discover that not all serpents are snakes. You will see in a small section of scriptures that it is not talking of the king of Tyrus. Because no kings of tyrus had even been in the Eden of God it is important to understand this is not a mistake but God revealing to us things about Satan, that old serpent found in Exk 28:13-19.

But know this these are spiritual things that must be compared to other spiritual things by being taught by the Holy Ghost not men. One cannot understand the words of God without he Holy Ghost being in them, and they do their part to hear the Holy Ghost and to Study and rightly divide (not handle) the word of truth. right division will show you the difference between a earthly serpent and the beings know and that old Serpent who does not crawl on his belly but walks to and fro upon the earth.

The body and blood of Christ in Scriptures as mentioned by Christ and Paul, is not literal but figurative for it is prohibited for Jews to eat the flesh of men and drink any blood. That is why it is symbolized by bread and wine.

that body and blood is the ransom given for many as Matthew and Mark mention from the mouth of Jesus. But that is as far as Jesus taught on it. It wasn't until the postponement of the kingdom promise to the Jews that Saul/Paul was called and gave us the details about the blood and body of Christ as a sacrifice for our sins, a ransom for many.

Learn to rightly divide and compare the spiritual words of God with spiritual words of God as found in the only English Bible with all the verses in it, the AV. Paul also expounds on love, holy living (sin no more), giving (from the hearth not a command to tithe), esteeming others (straightening the feeble) and many other things Jesus and the Bible teach.

Become so familiar with your Bible no cult who make false claims of Paul and 90% of the bible as being corrupt. the word of God says he will preserve his words to every generation forever in Ps 12:6, 7.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Just wait till you realise an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god is a paradox, oh and that such a thing isn't even logically needed for a natural world to unfold through chemical reactions.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Originally posted ChesterJohn
Here is the quote, Snake = Lies and following Negative/Lower ego… ". It was mixed in with other statements that are Biblical they had to do with God's truth, the church and therefore he unintended claim was that snake was a Biblical word.

Originally posted ChesterJohn
Now our friend used the word "snake" which is never found in the AV. Which is why I questioned his use of snake by using the Biblical word serpent and not snake,

Firstly, you questioned 3NL1GHT3N3D1…You didn’t question myself!…and that was my quote that you highlighted…

And secondly, 3NL1GHT3N3D1 didn’t even mention a snake in a “Garden”…no Garden was ever mentioned…

You’ve essentially pulled a straw man out of a hat…


Anyway, 3NL1GHT3N3D1 is right, both serpent and snake are used interchangeable…

Take a look at these examples from the NIV Bible…

2Corinthians 11:3 (NIV)
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

The word used for serpent in the above…is strongs number G3789

The next example is from Matthew 7:10 which is what me and 3NL1GHT3N3D1 were discussing…


Matthew 7:10 (NIV)
Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?


As you can see, the exact same word G3789 is used in Matthew 7:10, only this time it is translated as “snake”…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

so do you think the serpent was a snake when he decieved Eve?

Just remember he was not condemned to crawl on his belly until later that Day after Eve's was deceived.

So the serpent wasn't a snake when he found Eve in the garden admiring the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil.

Many say it was a talking snake but the serpent was not on his belly until after the fall of the first couple.

Serpent is not always a snake that is a vital point you are all missing.

While the NIV eliminates over 18,000 plus words from its rendition and changes another 22,0000 plus words. You lose all supernatural fluidity of cross referencing and they had to add their own to make up for it.

The NIV is the worst of all renditions of scriptures by far and even the four NIV versions out there don't agree.

Snake is never found in the AV.

People!

There's no point trying to converse with ChesterJohn. He makes up his own definitions of words.

Such as:
An X isn't a cross
A serpent isn't a snake

There's no point trying to convince him with dictionary definitions either because, according to him, they're wrong.

So all you're going to do is go round in circles and he'll think he's won. It's pointless. All he cares about is what Paul says.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Originally posted ChesterJohn
so do you think the serpent was a snake when he decieved Eve?

Just remember he was not condemned to crawl on his belly until later that Day after Eve's was deceived.

Ok, it’s termed serpent when it tempted Eve…but after it ends up on it’s belly, it gets described as a snake…But both terms “serpent” and "snake", are still referring to the same being/idea/concept/…

THE NIV and other Bible versions use serpent and snake interchangeably but they’re still referring to the same thing…even if they’re describing their different states etc…

In fact, the NIV version is better, because it takes into account past and present descriptions of the serpent, and it’s transition to crawling on it’s belly like a snake…

Originally posted ChesterJohn
Snake is never found in the AV.

The fact that the AV Bible only uses the word “Serpent” all the way through, means it’s got the descriptions wrong…

Originally posted ChesterJohn
The NIV is the worst of all renditions of scriptures by far and even the four NIV versions out there don't agree.

Which version is better now…?


- JC