Circumcising kids or altering them hormonally. Which is worse and why?

a reply to: Namdru

Yes, children with gender dysphoria often know they have it as soon as they understand the concept of gender (usually around age 2 or 3). The difference between a toddler who is just playing around and a child with true gender dysphoria, is strong insistence, persistence over years, and consistently communicating the same thing over the years. A small child who is just playing around with gender identification will not persist over a period of years- it's usually just a phase they are going through. The strong insistence of a child with gender dysphoria includes talking about suicide if they cannot live as the gender they identify with.

It's a long involved process for a child with gender dysphoria. They usually have a team of medical professionals working with the whole family over a period of many years. A kid who is just playing with the idea, or who is just copying what they see other kids do, will usually lose interest after a while.

There's stds condomes don't protect against
Hpv is one of them ... anyone who went to sex ed should know this


The rest I'll leave up to doctors and parents ... if there is no laws to say they can't and doctors can generally agree its ethical I fell I have no right to force what I belive on others

On a side note tho if u really miss ur foreskin u can grow it back ....

My wife wouldn't circumesize if we had a son ... and in a beautiful display of hipocracy she also wouldn't be with me if I wasn't ... lol

originally posted by: firefromabove
Jews and Muslims circumcise their boys and many people oppose it and want it banned. they say that adults cannot make decisions that affect children.

Liberal parents of allegedly transgender children make the decision to hormonally alter their children and most people have no problem with it. The media even praises such parents as being progressive and "brave" etc

Why is hormonally altering children alright but not circumcising them?

Circumcision just removes a piece of skin, not a vital organ; besides temporary pain it does not affect their day to day life.

Hormone therapy OTOH changes a whole bunch of things that will affect kids all their lives.

Most people? You must live in crazyville because if it was up to Me the child would be seized from the parents and the parents would be thrown in the loony bin.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Yes, I know a family like this. The kid was obviously unsual and very gifted in other ways before anyone else knew, i.e. by age two.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: PlasticWizard

The big one is that, in fact, male genital mutilation(circumcision) is on par with female genital mutilation.

You are kidding right? Female circumcision cuts off the labia and clitoris and is done later in life just before the woman reaches puberty. The clitoris has more nerve endings then the whole penis....is the major sexual stimulation for most woman...and you call it the same? Nothing like cutting off a twelve year old's labia and clitoris and tying it around her wrist so all can see she is pure now...

To be on "par" the male would need to remove the penis head too...

Give me a break...I feel people just argue to argue...

Actually the clitoris is a small undeveloped penis which would grow into a penis with hormonal therapy so saying it has more nerve endings is kind of dumb.

originally posted by: Irishhaf

As for hormone therapy... I have no opinion but will relate the story of a friend.

She had felt most of her life that she should have been born male, she did not elect to pursue this till after she had become an adult and had a child... she is immensely thankful for having had her daughter and has told me and the wife that despite the emotional struggle going high school feeling like she was in the wrong body, she is happy she did so she could fully understand what she was giving up vs just what she felt she was gaining.

How many of the young people going through the therapy now truly understand what they are losing vs what they are gaining.

eta: I would honestly be curious to see a study done say... 10 yrs down the road after gender reassignment (used for lack of a better word) through either hormone therapy or blockers, I have read some papers that imply a high suicide rate... but not a real honest to god study... though to be honest I havent pursued that in some time.

that about wraps up my opinion piece...

I think there are varying intensities of gender dysphoria. Some have milder forms of it and some have very extreme forms - with everything in between. Those with severe gender dysphoria suffer horribly, with deep depression, anxiety and suicidal tendencies. Most of these symptoms go away when the person begins to transition to the gender they identify with. Some people with dysphoria don't have the strong need to have sex reassignment surgery; hormones are enough for them. For others, their dysphoria cannot be relieved until EVERYTHING has been changed.

The suicide rate you refer to is usually because the person either didn't undergo the transition until after the permanent effects of puberty, which led to a less than satisfactory result - or the person is facing discrimination/family rejection which is causing the continued depression. Young people who start the transition early (which means they have a more successful transition and can easily pass as the gender they identify with, with strangers not even knowing) and who have a supportive family structure usually don't have the suicidal tendencies.

a reply to: firefromabove

Im going with both are totally different in just as many different ways. One, temporarily modifies the chemistry...and the other permanently removes skin. One can be stopped or reversed and the other cannot.

MS
EMT
Advanced Life Support

a reply to: kaylaluv

I read up on it a bit when she came and lived with us for a while to try and better understand her mood swings (that seems like the wrong phrase but its the best I got atm)... and like I said what little I read only seemed to imply not really give a good in depth study on it.

Ultimately my beef is not with the people that are actually suffering...

Its when I see parents jumping on any little thing the kid does and pushing clothes and toys of the opposite gender, when it might just be the kid was curious about the clothes or toys of a sister or brother and not actual gender dysphoria... those idiots take away from the actual cases in my opinion.

originally posted by: Irishhaf

Its when I see parents jumping on any little thing the kid does and pushing clothes and toys of the opposite gender, when it might just be the kid was curious about the clothes or toys of a sister or brother and not actual gender dysphoria... those idiots take away from the actual cases in my opinion.

I would agree, but I think that's pretty rare. Most of the time, the kid is pushing HARD to wear the clothes of the opposite gender and the parents give in. The people that I know who have had gender dysphoria as children tell me that when they pushed, their parents made deals like "when you're at home you can, but at school you have to wear the other clothes" - at least in the beginning. So it's not like parents are eager to make this change right away.

a reply to: kaylaluv

fair enough..

Ultimately I understand it is a real thing... and bottom line I agree like my Parties presidential candidate said..It falls under life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

When proper steps are taken to protect the kids, then the rest of us need to shut our pie holes and let folks be who they feel they really are.

a reply to: firefromabove

It's a parent's duty to make decisions for their children. Which is exactly why hormone therapy should never be done, because many children outgrow the feelings.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: firefromabove

It's a parent's duty to make decisions for their children. Which is exactly why hormone therapy should never be done, because many children outgrow the feelings.

If they did "outgrow the feelings", they can just stop taking the blockers and resume life. There's no permanent changes unless you count actual hormones which are never given before 16 (and even that is rare).

Lopping off a part of your junk for no good reason at birth (without consent), however, is permanent and traumatizing.

We sing to our babies while they are still in the womb because studies have shown positive effects of doing so. Don't pretend that causing an infant so much pain they pass out as their first experiences of our world doesn't have some sort of impact.

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: firefromabove

Im going with both are totally different in just as many different ways. One, temporarily modifies the chemistry...and the other permanently removes skin. One can be stopped or reversed and the other cannot.

MS
EMT
Advanced Life Support

It can result in sterilization. Which can not be reversed.

originally posted by: Abysha
If they did "outgrow the feelings", they can just stop taking the blockers and resume life. There's no permanent changes unless you count actual hormones which are never given before 16 (and even that is rare).

It depends on the treatment. Puberty blockers are only one treatment. It's not even an approved treatment for gender dysphoria, so most insurances won't cover it at the moment.

a reply to: firefromabove

I would say both are decisions made by families and their doctor's and nobody else's business to judge.

* I notice you did not include the "circumcision" (mutilation and abuse) of females.

originally posted by: Abysha
Lopping off a part of your junk for no good reason at birth (without consent), however, is permanent and traumatizing.

I had it done, no trauma here. Almost everyone I know had it done, with no trauma. I think most of the problems with circumcision is due to those who have the procedure done religiously, by someone unqualified to do it.

originally posted by: crappiekat
a reply to: Lagomorphe

We were told that circumcising was a good thing for health reasons.

Less possibility for infections.

So far things are going good for my boy's

So they are circumcised?

I am circumcised.

I can wonder what it would feel like to be uncircumcised adult, but will never know.
I knew a man that had to be circumcised as an adult for health reasons (he never went into details about the reasons) and he said it was a horrible thing for him.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Abysha
If they did "outgrow the feelings", they can just stop taking the blockers and resume life. There's no permanent changes unless you count actual hormones which are never given before 16 (and even that is rare).

It depends on the treatment. Puberty blockers are only one treatment. It's not even an approved treatment for gender dysphoria, so most insurances won't cover it at the moment.

None of that is true. Insurance covers it because it IS standard. Go to WPATH for your sources on this, not blogs.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Abysha
Lopping off a part of your junk for no good reason at birth (without consent), however, is permanent and traumatizing.

I had it done, no trauma here. Almost everyone I know had it done, with no trauma. I think most of the problems with circumcision is due to those who have the procedure done religiously, by someone unqualified to do it.

No trauma that you know of.

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Abysha
If they did "outgrow the feelings", they can just stop taking the blockers and resume life. There's no permanent changes unless you count actual hormones which are never given before 16 (and even that is rare).

It depends on the treatment. Puberty blockers are only one treatment. It's not even an approved treatment for gender dysphoria, so most insurances won't cover it at the moment.

None of that is true. Insurance covers it because it IS standard. Go to WPATH for your sources on this, not blogs.

So much ignorance. Here is a Trans website and PBS.

Some health insurance will cover them partially in cross gender treatment, and some won’t. As a result, the out of pocket cost of these agents can be quite substantial.

www.transactiveonline.org...

“What we’re seeing in the clinic is that whether or not specific insurance plans cover medication or not is completely arbitrary,” Simons said. “It really can’t be predicted very easily.”

“We almost always just expect a denial,” she said.

www.pbs.org...