Atheists have no answers

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I've been cleaning up my approach over the years since we used to butt heads all the time over evolution.

Admittedly my approach wasn't always worth reading.

a reply to: Groot

Me, too!

a reply to: MotherMayEye

We should all have an ATS meet up ! LOL !

a reply to: Groot

We should all have an ATS meet up ! LOL !

PORTLAND

iT WOULD PROLLY JUST END UP SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Groot

We should all have an ATS meet up ! LOL !

PORTLAND

Groot doesn't go to the Pacific Northwest...
Nobody serves sweet tea there! lol!

a reply to: johnb

I think the main teachings of Christianity comply with my understanding of the spiritual laws of the universe, as limited as that understanding is. I disagree with the main point of Christianity, however, that the only way to "salvation" is through JC.

I agree that most Christian churches, especially the Catholic Church that I grew up in, have teachings that have nothing to do with what JC taught. However, men are fallible. All people "sin" and to judge a religion by the actions of its members, on a specific sense, is unfair. When we generally look at the Roman Catholic Church, for instance, they've done horrible, horrible things. They are also responsible for feeding, clothing, healing, and educating many many people. Maybe more than any other organization.

originally posted by: randyvs
Because they are always asking the theist for answers. It's as if the atheist
only gets to ask questions. Why is this so? I must assume it's because the
atheist has no answers. And when I think about it, How could they have
any answers to their own questions. They have made a conclusion based
on zero evidence about an ideology that has been around since before
recorded history. Not only that there is a history to it absolutely.
And Richard Dawkins intolerable attitude towards a point of view other
than his own? Just makes him a secularist bigot and nothing more.
Atheists have no answers and even Flew flew the coupe. So when it
comes to questions about mans origins? I can't possibly consider the
atheist.

Here we go....

Firstly. Atheists are not believers, nor is it a religion. They are however realists.
You could compare this to wishing it will rain: religious folk. To knowing, when and where it will rain: Atheists|Facts

We have spent far to long as the human race dwindling our intelligence to mythical stories. It has delayed progression by 100's of years, maybe to some texts, thousands of years. This was before science (in religious folks eyes) was seen as sorcery, something of witchcraft. That alone, fuels atheists, no more time shall be lost.

The big question always boils down to, 'ok, so where did man come from? where did earth come from?'. Let's just take a moment to realise everything and I do mean everything! science has enabled you to enjoy and stay living a healthy, entertainment, clean lifestyle that you and many others take for granted.

I use science because most Atheists understand that factual data and proof aids real enlightenment to our lives as humans. I understand that many scientists hold some beliefs too, however they are not defined by their religion as they would never accept the concept of science they studied for. Thus, I would never deem a educated scientist properly religious.

10. Organ transplants.
9. Robots and artificial intelligence.
8. Electronic funds transfer.
7. Nuclear power.
6. Mobile phones.
5. Space flight.
4. Personal computers.
3. Digital media.
2. Genetic engineering.
1. The Internet.

This and more is why Atheist or Realists laugh at the very notion of your anger towards them because they see people that have your view as dwindlers, wishing time away.

'ok, so where did man come from? where did earth come from?'. Science may not have the answer to that VERY VERY grand question as of yet but how about you research everything else it has answered and that religion has changed its texts to adopt. That should tell you who is leading who astray.

Science is on the cusp of many GRAND questions and delivering the human civilisation those answers. It may already have such answers but worries its impact into the lives of those who cannot grasp life without meaning or a great God.

To end. No religion has aided the human existence other then community spirit. That however, was a human trait to begin with.

TO ADD: Most religious people tend to deem their religion the one true religion. Isn't it funny that most religious people, follow the religion of their parents or family. Then isn't that even more odd that you was, by some divine miracle born into just the RIGHT religion? Could even go as far as by country, every country has a staple religion enforced on them. Isn't that odd too, that they lived in just the right country they were born in? Yet, there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups. All those religions and yours was the right one. Amazing....

a reply to: BlackProject

I think that is a bit over stated. There is no way science is going to prove or disprove a designer remotely soon.

We have very little ways of testing string theory and boson theory never mind observe the dimensions predicted (26 in bosonic)

Nor would any of that prove or disprove god.

Ontology in general is unknowable in its grand scheme. How would we fathom a universe we were not created for? Or a universe that does not support life by having different constants. Or what an object even is. All we know is what the observer can understand of that object in his or her mind. They can't know what that object actually is on its own.

Besides a priest came up with the big bang, and a monk the basis for genetics. Most religious folks are not creationists. It's an allegory.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: BlackProject

I think that is a bit over stated. There is no way science is going to prove or disprove a designer remotely soon.

We have very little ways of testing string theory and boson theory never mind observe the dimensions predicted (26 in bosonic)

Not would any of that prove or disprove god.

Ontology in general is unknowable in its grand scheme. How would we fathom a universe we were not created for? Or a universe that does not support life by having different constants. Or what an obkect even is. All we know is what tell observer can understand of that object in his or her mind. They can't know what that object actually is on its own.

There is no way science is going to prove or disprove a designer remotely soon.

Remotely soon, so you agree eventually they will have an answer? It is like having infinite amount of monkeys, typing on an infinite amount of typewriters. Will they ever be able to type the entire works of shakespear?

Modern science that actually makes a big changes to our world and understanding has only been with us for around 200+ years. That is two lifetimes of a human being living till 100 years old. You really think that is enough to answer that question right now? or to even try and put down an institution actually breaking its balls to achieve answers we will never achieve with religion?

Ontology in general is unknowable in its grand scheme. How would we fathom a universe we were not created for?

Again, 200 years. Is not long enough to achieve the grand understanding of the human brain. So how in earth could you say for a second we are not created to understand? We know right now, we only use a small percentage of our brains. Our brains and human civilisation will accomplish great things, I hope one day you will see those achievements.

We are handicapped as the human perspective but the human perspective has the ability to learn. However we are intelligent enough to enhance our handicap, to achieve greater things.

a reply to: BlackProject

Well I strongly disagree. Having worked in cosmology on the philosophical side,..we can't possibly know things beyond our senses. We can use equipment to extend out senses but what does color we can't see look like?

Why does the universe we are in appear to be fine tuned for life? The weight of carbon couldn't be any different for instance.


I think the point is the search not the answer. The answer is always farther away.


I just don't think we can ever kow the whole story, particularly in a multiverse multiple dimension reality. If it's a simulation or hologram it will be even harder to advance past the design. Not impossible but no science will not prove or disprove god. It can falsify the folklore however.

"So, you think that everyone is praying to the same god?"

Who knows? I think that is probably true, but I'm not sure the term "god" is accurate. I think what we think of as a god is a symbol for an entity or energy that is beyond human understanding. Also I misunderstood the art of effective prayer for most of my life. I could expound upon this quite a bit but would be a a hijacking of the thread.

"Then why are there so many different variations of the story?" Again, I don't know, it's not important to me. I think that there are individuals who have transformative spiritual experiences that are interpreted through the lens of their own specific individuality. However, if you look at the stories, there are many, many similarities from religion to religion, or belief system to belief system. Many have stories of the flood, virgin birth, resurrection, etc.. Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung had a lot to say about these similarities. To me the stories are not and never were meant to be exact historical events. They are symbolic stories that reflect deeper meanings that are apparent and yet are incapable of being truly put into words.

"What are these spiritual laws?" The spiritual laws are those teachings that are common to all spiritual traditions. They are universal and taught in all but the most aberrant of belief systems. There are many. The Golden Rule would be the main one. The importance of the Golden Rule is that it teaches us to see other humans as our equal, all others. Regardless of how decadent or debased a human being is, his/her value to the universe is equal to yours or mine. When we see another as our equal, it is impossible to treat them as an object or a means to an end. (I'd note that it is not that the perfect attainment of this ideal that is necessary (which is probably impossible or at least nearly so) it is the humble striving for it that is important). Again there are many, many more and many volumes are written about them.

"... and how do you know them?" The majority of the laws or maybe more accurately, the ideals, I attempt to live by have been learned by reading and rereading spiritual texts from a variety of traditions. I've also had mentors from time to time that have introduced me to others. Lastly, as I attempt to live a spiritual lifestyle by these precepts and continue with daily self-evaluation of my acts, thoughts, and motivations, others are presented to me. In other words, I learn from my experiences.

"How does following these laws benefit you?" I answered this a bit earlier in this thread. However, I would say that I have gone from a selfish, self-serving, insecure, emotionally dysfunctional, and deeply sad individual to an other-centered, higher-powered-conscious, secure, emotionally functional and deeply serene and productive person.

I also want to say that I greatly appreciate your inquisitive and polite posts even though I presume you greatly disagree with me. I don't wish to change your mind about any of your beliefs and wish you the best. Just like to anonymously express my own from time to time. The need to put ideas into words helps solidify one's own beliefs. Thanks.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: BlackProject

Well I strongly disagree. Having worked in cosmology on the philosophical side,..we can't possibly know things beyond our senses. We can use equipment to extend out senses but what does color we can't see look like?

Why does the universe we are in appear to be fine tuned for life? The weight of carbon couldn't be any different for instance.


I think the point is the search not the answer. The answer is always farther away.


I just don't think we can ever kow the whole story, particularly in a multiverse multiple dimension reality. If it's a simulation or hologram it will be even harder to advance past the design. Not impossible but no science will not probe or disprove god. It can falsify the folklore however.

Really, you just replied to me with this?

Yes we cannot see things beyond our senses but I just replied to you explaining this and you agree again with basically the same premise.

We can use equipment to extend out senses

??

So you agree, we build equipment to help see the things we cannot and thus, we learn and see everything.

The universe is not fine tuned. Neither is earth. It seems fine tuned for Humans because we grew here, for lack of the better phrase. If we did not have oxygen, we may not live therefore some kind of organism would live and not breath. Its environment would therefore be perfect for it but not us. There is life on this planet right now, where fish live in acidic waters, that would kill you or I.

Right now the world has two options. God, which is as good as saying Harry potter is real. Or science which aims to someday give humans the answer. In our lives, maybe you are right. We will never have the answer because we will be dead. In hopes however that humans live on for many many years to come, we will one day succeed.

I do however agree that yes, that answer is not important. Seeking what aids us to live, is important. Hence the reason Atheists do not get Religious people. Why ask Atheists to prove something that far outreaches human ability due to technological equipment we use right now, then realising all the great things science has enabled life to succeed already. Like medicine...

originally posted by: BlackProject

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: BlackProject

Well I strongly disagree. Having worked in cosmology on the philosophical side,..we can't possibly know things beyond our senses. We can use equipment to extend out senses but what does color we can't see look like?

Why does the universe we are in appear to be fine tuned for life? The weight of carbon couldn't be any different for instance.


I think the point is the search not the answer. The answer is always farther away.


I just don't think we can ever kow the whole story, particularly in a multiverse multiple dimension reality. If it's a simulation or hologram it will be even harder to advance past the design. Not impossible but no science will not probe or disprove god. It can falsify the folklore however.

Really, you just replied to me with this?

Yes we cannot see things beyond our senses but I just replied to you explaining this and you agree again with basically the same premise.

We can use equipment to extend out senses

??

So you agree, we build equipment to help see the things we cannot and thus, we learn and see everything.

The universe is not fine tuned. Neither is earth. It seems fine tuned for Humans because we grew here, for lack of the better phrase. If we did not have oxygen, we may not live therefore some kind of organism would live and not breath. Its environment would therefore be perfect for it but not us. There is life on this planet right now, where fish live in acidic waters, that would kill you or I.

Right now the world has two options. God, which is as good as saying Harry potter is real. Or science which aims to someday give humans the answer. In our lives, maybe you are right. We will never have the answer because we will be dead. In hopes however that humans live on for many many years to come, we will one day succeed.

I do however agree that yes, that answer is not important. Seeking what aids us to live, is important. Hence the reason Atheists do not get Religious people. Why ask Atheists to prove something that far our reaches humans right now, then realising all the great things science has enabled life to succeed already. Like medicine...

I think you have a ways to go my friend.

Do we know a machine is working if we can't verify it with our observation? It takes a lot of retries, and we may only have a fragment of the picture. Like newton vs QM.

What your looking for is called the anthropic principle.

Your not really understanding. If the weight if carbon were different stars would not form. Some constants can be changed but very few. This isn't simply the oxygen argument or god in the gaps. You need more reference to understand.

The universe certainly appears fine tuned. There are literally thousands of papers in peer review which talk about it. It doesn't mean god by any means but the anthropic principle is also the reason we can't get beyond out observational bias. We can only limit it .

a reply to: luthier

Again I am very aware of both sides of the coin, life requirements and also that of molecules that make up our surroundings. Those same principles can be applied even on those tiny formations too. That are created from the cosmic soup they are smashed from, so in our local neighbourhood we only have and see what we can test and observe. There is no study to promote that the elements we observe are the only elements obtainable. Recent research has shown, elements being added to the periodic table that were otherwise deemed non achievable.

We can only test and make from what we are given, therefore yes everything does seem just perfect, just Goldilocks to us. This is a very huge misconception even by a large endorsement of scientific institute too. This comes from the overlay of religious ingrained beliefs even in the minds of great scientists.

This is what I fear always for our progression as humans.

a reply to: BlackProject

Well learn more. I think your incorrect.


How would a star form if the universal constants were different?

I think your missing my real point. It's not god that limits us, it's our reference place in time and space.

How do you know we were not created by another being.

Could we create a race of man through genetics that live on mars, then we die and all that is left of us is folklore.

The problem is in the phenomenon vs noumena. It's the only thing we know is our observation. Think Hume, and Kant.

It's funny you use religion as a bias but fail to recognize your own. We are all biased. We can only limit and mitigate bias. You believing science will find the answers is actually a bias.



It's a deep subject the shores of the debate of metaphysics are lined with shipwrecks. There is no lighthouse.

In fact reality, quantum entanglement, superposition, etc show how much we don't perceive actual reality with our senses. A good lesson for sure.

By the way I fully accept there is a huge possibility I am full of sht

a reply to: Groot

Yeah. We are within one hour of St Joseph. Our house is in the 'zone' for total blackout, but not for as long as just a few miles north. We're excited about it.

The endeavor to understand is the first and only basis of virtue.

My man Spinoza.

originally posted by: randyvs
Because they are always asking the theist for answers. It's as if the atheist
only gets to ask questions. Why is this so? I must assume it's because the
atheist has no answers. And when I think about it, How could they have
any answers to their own questions. They have made a conclusion based
on zero evidence about an ideology that has been around since before
recorded history. Not only that there is a history to it absolutely.
And Richard Dawkins intolerable attitude towards a point of view other
than his own? Just makes him a secularist bigot and nothing more.
Atheists have no answers and even Flew flew the coupe. So when it
comes to questions about mans origins? I can't possibly consider the
atheist.

Could you be more specific as to which questions we're asking? Perhaps I can explain why we ask them.

Also, what answers to which questions are we supposed to have?

Atheism isn't an ideology, so there's no scripture, no common line of thinking or universal agreement on anything philosophical for an atheist, other than a lack of belief in any gods.

I can understand how that can be confusing from the perspective of a religious individual, considering religions all have their own answers. So it's an honest misunderstanding.

But if you're honestly curious, I can see if I can help

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

As in....?

Fact is, no one really knows if He exists. People who are religious, believe because they've grown up with it and just take it for granted that God exists. Or, they come to it later in life for some reason or another. I grew up in a VERY religious family, with several Uncles who were Preachers. I saw the hypocrisy and fighting between faiths, each proclaiming they are "The One and Only" and if you don't follow their version, you're bound for warmer climate. I saw Preachers who thundered out the message against drinking....who had a still up the mountain behind their house.

Faith is just that...Faith. Believing in something with no actual proof. Like I said, I can't proof He doesn't exist and the believers can't prove He does. Stalemate. For the last few thousand years.

Actually my friend, you are totally wrong on that. People DO know God exists and I am one of them. I know it for an absolute certainty. It does indeed begin with faith and I was there before, with only faith. I did not know it for a fact then. I have always been willing to believe God exists though, but I haven't always been faithful.

When a person truly seeks God in their life, and is willing to believe, and even though they don't know for certain yet, they still hold faith that he does, and they speak to him in prayer and thought, with love. After many years of that and many rough spots, God revealed himself to me and took my spirit away to another place and spoke to me. I have also seen Christ in spirit and he was disappointed with me and waited for me to tell him why. I apologized and told him I can make good and he smiled and allowed me to go, but there was a warning to me there. It still isn't easy even when you know 100 percent that God is real, because we are human and born to sin as a default mode. The hard way is to live right.

A person who is never willing to even begin with a belief, and have a smidgen of faith to start with will likely never know God. God wants people to begin their relationship with him using faith and belief to begin with. Always giving God the benefit of the doubt. Saying there is no proof as if that gives people an excuse not to look for God isn't going to save anyone, it will just mean in the end that that person was unwilling to play by God's rules. One of the biggest rules is humility before pride, and that means there will then be room for a little faith and just believing will be good enough to start with.

Delusional and in need of an emotional security crutch but you are not alone so no reason to feel different.

Keep telling yourself that and see if it helps when your judgement day comes