Dear Muslims

Dear Muslims,

This thread is an attempt at reaching out and trying to understand your positions. When I first came to ATS (2009), my views on Muslims and Islam itself were FAR different to what they are at present. I have gone through some big changes in my beliefs on both subjects and believe you can trust that my intentions for this thread are good.

Even if you consider my last several threads in regards to Islam which you might think have been excessively harsh and critical towards either Islam or Muslims, I can assure you they were made for a purpose which was more important than me expressing my views or getting people that agreed before they even read it to say they agree and explain why they agree too. I know making a thread that is intended to bash Islam and Muslims is not productive for anyone except people who want to believe the worst about Muslims because either they hate or don't understand Islam itself.

Back in 2009 I was closer to that type of mindset, I have not been anywhere close to that mindset in a long time, even if I have on occasion lost my temper and unjustly attacked Islam as a religion. I am human. Allah (the most merciful and wisest source of all) would forgive my past views and allow me to try be a better person. Yes, I am agnostic which means I cannot even know if Allah does exist, but I referring to Allah in the best way I know how to be respectful so you don't need to doubt my intentions.

If you are willing to listen, I STRONGLY encourage you do listen, because the advice I am offering, I TRULY believe will be beneficial to both Muslims themselves and people that are anti-Muslim for WHATEVER reason (except those that are 100% hate, I cannot change them, neither can you.)

Here are my 3 major questions about Islam towards Muslims. Feel free to ask for ANY clarification if you think I am assuming what I should not, but do keep in mind, while I am no Islamic scholar, I am far from ignorant about Islam either:

1) I am aware that Allah is the most high authority in Islamic belief. Allah created EVERYTHING, Allah can do ANYTHING, Allah is the most important aspect of Islamic beliefs (regardless of any denomination). Am I correct in this belief?

2) Muhammad (peace be upon him) is highly revered. He is NOT seen as being as important to the extent that Allah is, but in terms of being a mortal human, Muhammad would be considered the most significant of all time. Mainly because he is the mortal who, through the Archangel Gabriel, received the divine words of Allah and was able to express those words to others, who then wrote them down and compiled the Quran. Is what I just said correct in regard to all Muslims, regardless of denomination.

3) To me, as a secular agnostic, I am able to separate religious views or belief systems (e.g. Islam or Science) from people themselves (e.g. Muslims or Scientists), do you feel I am allowed to do this in our following discussion?

I think that is a good start. Let us establish we are both clear on any facts suggested about Islam or Muslims. From this moment onward, I might forget to be as respectful as I have been due to my questions, but please understand I have not lived in a Muslim culture or under Sharia. I have met and spoken with Muslims who I get along with and have never had a personal bad experience with a single Muslim. I am an Australian that has lived here most of my life.

Keeping all that in mind, let's begin!

— Dark Ghost.

Here are the only two most important things you need to know about Islam and Muslims
1) Islam is a brainwashing religious cult. 2) Muslims are brainwashed.

Strip away the cult regalia and you see innocent human beings, under the oppression of a brainwashing cult. Hate Islam all you like, but Muslims are innocent human beings.

Well, if you are open minded enough to believe this, there are some counter arguments:

"Islam according to the Quran teaches love and compassion for every human being, no matter their religion, says author Adnan Oktar whose television show is watched by millions in Turkey and the Arab world. He believes the problem for the majority of Muslims is that some groups are following traditions and superstitions invented centuries after the Quran was first sent and the Prophet lived, and these have gotten more radical over time."

www.goodnewsnetwork.org...

"Two Hundred Verses about Compassionate Living in the Quran"

themuslimtimes.info...

I have heard this sentiment a few times from Muslims, "The Holy Quran talks about One God and one human family." I think what they are saying is not forcing everyone to convert to Islam, but for everyone in the World to accept the idea we are all one human family under God regardless of which word you or prophet you use to represent God. Of course, many people just want to genocide the ragheads out of existence so it doesn't matter what you say.

I mean that is what it seems the West is doing. The West is hell-bent on bombing the Arabs out of existence. Genocide of the Arabs is the final solution.''

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I'll play along for a while, depending on the discussion. ETA: But for the record, you should probably start by reading my signature. Because just like with every other major religion in the world, individual practitioners will have completely different views and levels of understanding of their religion. In other words, start with the source and it'll answer most of the questions you have.

1. Correct.

2. Incorrect.

The Prophet Muhammad is one of the 4 most revered Prophets in Islam, along with the Prophet Moses/Musa, the Prophet David/Dawood, and the Prophet Jesus/Essa/Issa. Those 4 Prophets were each given one of God's Holy Books. Moses was given the Tawrat (with the Torah being an altered version of it); David was given the Zabur (which is commonly believed to be the Psalms); Jesus was given the Injil (which he actually taught from, with today's Gospels being accounts of his life at points); and Muhammad was given the Qur'an.

However, some Muslims place the much respected Prophet Abraham on that same level. I suspect that's because Arabs and many other Semitic groups in the region consider the Prophet Abraham to be their blood ancestor. (The Prphets Adam, Solomon, David, and Essa are my personal favorites.)

The Qur'an does tell us on multiple occasions to follow the Prophet Muhammad's teachings. Today's "Sunnah", which are a collection of teachings that are separate from the Qur'an, are supposedly composed of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. This is why so many Muslims also follow them, with some following them in practice far more than they follow the actual Qur'an. "Sunnis" are literally "followers of the Sunnah" & Sunni Islam is the largest umbrella of modern Islamic sects.

However, the Qur'an is also explicit that God doesn't differentiate between His Prophets. Here's (Surah 2:136) as an example:

Muhsin Khan translation:
Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)."

Pickthall translation:
Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

Yusuf Ali translation:
Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

Surah 3:84 says something similar:

Muhsin Khan translation:
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] and what was given to Musa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam)."

Pickthall translation:
Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

Yusuf Ali translation:
Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

3. Sure

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Thank you for the detailed reply. I must say I did not expect your participation as one of the first, since I have made some snide comments towards you not too long ago, that were driven by an anger towards your religion (Islam) and had little to do with you as a person. There are many issues we disagree on when it comes to ATS. Even so, I would be lying if I said your views didn't challenge my views and cause me to get angry too quickly and too conveniently than was appropriate.

I do detect and understand your caution, just be assured I am a mere member, I have no power to stop people that want to use this thread for the wrong reasons. Obviously if you get harassed I would not expect you to stay, all I am saying is please give ME a chance and don't assume the worst. I would prefer this whole Islam vs. West business (whether the basis for its justification is real or not) many many people are getting hurt on both sides and it will NEVER stop until we all come to some type of compromise.

1. I am NOT challenging your belief in Allah when I ask this: As a Muslim yourself, do you acknowledge the existence of a Hell?
2. Thank you for explaining. That puts things for me into far better perspective.
3. Is me discussing Muhammad with YOU (yourself, an individual Muslim) in terms of his character and behaviours permitted? (I won't go THERE, trust me, that is not why I am asking.)

Wasting your breath . They wont listen . They wont learn . They wont comprimise .

a reply to: Dark Ghost

It's all good, man. Besides I'm not worried about any forms of harassment. I just don't feel like wasting my time with that stuff.

Though I will say that the "West vs Islam" thing has been blown way out of proportion since 9/11. Up to 30% of the African slaves brought to America were Muslims, meaning Islam has been here before the US became the US. The first country to recognize America's independence was the Muslim kingdom of Morocco (with that treaty still being our longest running treaty). And all kinds of American celebrities are Muslims, from Ice Cube & Dave Chappelle to Mike Tyson and Dr Oz. American sports stars like Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Haweem Olajuwon, Bernard Hopkins, etc are also Muslims.

I know you're not from America, but we've been surrounded by Muslims from the beginning. American Muslims even played a huge part in the US Civil Rights Movement which ended forced racial segregation in America in the 1960s. But a lot of the people who promote the hate have either never been around us or never cared enough to be around us. So they see the worse things that are attributed to Muslims and paint all of us with that stereotype.

1. I am NOT challenging your belief in Allah when I ask this: As a Muslim yourself, do you acknowledge the existence of a Hell?

Yes! In fact, Heaven & Hell (typically called Jannah & Jahannam in Islam) are important parts of our teachings. We basically believe that life on Earth is just a series of tests & our actions here will determine whether we go to Heaven or Hell.

2. Thank you for explaining. That puts things for me into far better perspective.

3. Is me discussing Muhammad with YOU (yourself, an individual Muslim) in terms of his character and behaviours permitted? (I won't go THERE, trust me, that is not why I am asking.)

You can, though I should probably be upfront on something. If you notice, even when I criticize something about Christianity or Judaism, I don't criticize the Prophets themselves. I try to criticize the failings of specific followers or organizations. I don't even intentionally disrespect the religious figures in other religions, like Buddha, Zarathustra, Brahma, etc.

The reason is because I respect all of God's Prophets, even if I don't respect or believe everything attributed to them. And the ones that I don't acknowledge as Prophets are still important to other people, so I simply acknowledge that their paths aren't meant for me. In other words, as a Muslim, I respect the Prophet Muhammad greatly, even if I personally doubt some of the things attributed to him. So if we talk about him, I'd prefer we keep it respectful.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
It's all good, man. Besides I'm not worried about any forms of harassment. I just don't feel like wasting my time with that stuff.

I can't guarantee you will personally benefit, but I will try my best to be as clear and respectful as I can. You have my word. It is very likely if we BOTH stick to our word, one of us and at least a few others will probably take something out of it.

Though I will say that the "West vs Islam" thing has been blown way out of proportion since 9/11. Up to 30% of the African slaves brought to America were Muslims, meaning Islam has been here before the US became the US. The first country to recognize America's independence was the Muslim kingdom of Morocco (with that treaty still being our longest running treaty). And all kinds of American celebrities are Muslims, from Ice Cube & Dave Chappelle to Mike Tyson and Dr Oz. American sports stars like Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Haweem Olajuwon, Bernard Hopkins, etc are also Muslims.

I know you're not from America, but we've been surrounded by Muslims from the beginning. American Muslims even played a huge part in the US Civil Rights Movement which ended forced racial segregation in America in the 1960s. But a lot of the people who promote the hate have either never been around us or never cared enough to be around us. So they see the worse things that are attributed to Muslims and paint all of us with that stereotype.

I am aware of some of those famous figures you mentioned. To be clear: I do NOT think Islamic belief is detrimental to your intellectual ability or chance of achieving or doing great things. You didn't imply that I did think so, I am just making it clear where I stand in regards to Muslims.

Yes! In fact, Heaven & Hell (typically called Jannah & Jahannam in Islam) are important parts of our teachings. We basically believe that life on Earth is just a series of tests & our actions here will determine whether we go to Heaven or Hell.

Can you be more specific on who goes to Heaven or who goes to Hell? As in, are there certain sins that carry more weight than others? Is any one sin unforgivable (as in Allah will not stop you from going there once you commit that sin)? Or is it really more like "the balance of the severity of all your sins is...GOOD! You go to Paradise!" [Edit: Oh, and are either Heaven or Hell permanent? Even though Allah can do anything, do you believe he would forgive anybody in the deepest region of Hell, if they were able to repent?].

3. You can, though I should probably be upfront on something. If you notice, even when I criticize something about Christianity or Judaism, I don't criticize the Prophets themselves. I try to criticize the failings of specific followers or organizations. I don't even intentionally disrespect the religious figures in other religions, like Buddha, Zarathustra, Brahma, etc.

The reason is because I respect all of God's Prophets, even if I don't respect or believe everything attributed to them. And the ones that I don't acknowledge as Prophets are still important to other people, so I simply acknowledge that their paths aren't meant for me. In other words, as a Muslim, I respect the Prophet Muhammad greatly, even if I personally doubt some of the things attributed to him. So if we talk about him, I'd prefer we keep it respectful.

a. I identify as agnostic, so if you wish to compare Muhammad with another religion's figure in a negative light, you won't be offending me. (That is not an endorsement to go ahead and do it. There might be people of other faiths watching who do get offended. Just making MY position clear.)
b. This might be the part you start to get a little more aggressive: I won't mention anything in particular. But there are obvious things alleged about Muhammad that do not paint him in a favourable or likeable light. If you were a non-Muslim, even knowing ONLY the things you CURRENTLY know as being true about Muhammad, would you be inclined to consider this historical figure favourably or unfavourably? (I am requesting you to temporarily suspend your belief in Islamic beliefs for a good reason. I simply want an objective view. If your faith allows you to do so AT MY REQUEST (which Allah will be aware I have stated now that I will take responsibility for you doing if it becomes a problem later if you are confronted by Allah), then please do so.

Edit: Upon reflection, I have decided to place a special notion on (b): You may answer (b) in this thread (a public context) or via personal message to me. The choice is yours, but I would strongly appreciate an answer. If you want clarification, ask HERE. If you understand, and want to answer here, go ahead. If you understand but want to answer in private (PM) there will be no way for me or anybody to link you with the question I asked and the answer you give. I am allowing this as a MASSIVE show of faith on my end. If you answer via PM, I will ONLY let people in the thread know that you have answered my question. I will not reveal or suggest anything about what your actual answer was. You have my word, what is said stays between YOU, MYSELF and Allah.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Can you be more specific on who goes to Heaven or who goes to Hell?

We believe in Judgment day (aka the Last Day/Day of Reckoning/Day of "Yawm Al-Qiyamah"), which for us is the day when all humans will be resurrected and judged based on what we did in life. No Muslim knows for certain who will make it to Heaven, even among self proclaimed Muslims, because we'll be judged based on everything we did & didn't do. Surah 4 gives some good information about that, especially from passages 36 through 49.

It might help to remember what a "Muslim" is. We believe "Muslims" are those who choose to submit to & serve God. Many parts of our Scriptures are literally telling us how to best serve God, so we basically try to obey His commands while rejecting what He told us to reject. Of course, every denomination and sect has its own interpretation of these, which causes a lot of the confusion.

As in, are there certain sins that carry more weight than others?

Yes. For example, the Qur'an says that anyone who intentionally kills a believer is going to Hell (Surah 4:93). But here's an article with 5 passages from the Qur'an that describe successful repenting (HERE). So it's complicated lol.

ETA: Here's how I usually describe it. The Qur'an has requirements; things that are encouraged but not required; things that are forbidden; things that are dissuaded but not forbidden; and things that are neither encouraged nor dissuaded. It also has small amounts of info on various Prophets and historical events, as well as some food for thought. It's really short compared to the Bible and it's not told in chronological order.

Is any one sin unforgivable (as in Allah will not stop you from going there once you commit that sin)?

The only unforgivable sin is attributing partners to God (called Shirk). But the wikipedia page says even that can be forgiven if the individual honestly repents before dying, though I don't know if that's a standard belief of one from a specific denomination.

Or is it really more like "the balance of the severity of all your sins is...GOOD! You go to Paradise!

That's how I treat it. Reading the Qur'an in its entirety gives me the impression that we can be forgiven for almost everything if we genuinely repent, completely make up for that action, and never do that action again. But I'm far less lenient with myself with this, meaning that I'd rather go overboard than miss out on Heaven by a small amount. So even though I know the Qur'an says that God is merciful and forgiving and that He magnifies our good deeds, I prefer to act as if He doesn't because it forces me to be better than "average".

But this is actually a very controversial subject, which is why my answers above are a bit vague. I've seen some denominations with my own eyes who believe that if you fast during the month of Ramadan and 10 days in the month afterwards, then their sins for the previous year will be forgiven. I completely disagree with that concept & have had some pretty heated discussions about it. Also, there's a passage in either the Sunnah or Hadith that claims someone asked the Prophet Muhammad what the bare minimum was to get into Heaven/Jannah. The answer they supposedly received was so preposterously low that I completely rejected it, since it would nullify much of what is in the Qur'an.

I personally think that interpretations like that are meant to keep the casual and nonpracticing Muslims on board. But I'm pretty sure that there are convenient religious interpretations like that for all religious. Oh and I'm pretty sure that Hell is permanent.

But there are obvious things alleged about Muhammad that do not paint him in a favourable or likeable light. If you were a non-Muslim, even knowing ONLY the things you CURRENTLY know as being true about Muhammad, would you be inclined to consider this historical figure favourably or unfavourably?

Hmm, I dunno. Probably unfavorably if I only listened to what people who are against Islam say. But probably favorably if I only listened to what actual Muslims say. You have to remember that there are almost 2 billion Muslims on Earth now. If you asked any random Muslim to tell you about him, you'd probably hear positive things with a positive spin. But most denominations of the largest religion on earth, Christianity, considers him a false Prophet, with some having literally labeled him the Antichrist at some point. So if you asked most Christians about him, you'd probably hear negative things with a negative spin. So it would entirely depend on where I got my "facts/truths" from. If I kill a home invader to protect my family, am I a murderer, a hero, or both?

I'm pointing that out because something I've seen on ATS way too much is people coming in with their "facts" about Islam. But when an actual Muslim says "lol, that's not true; this is what's true", the Muslim's explanation gets ignored. So then it becomes a "he said/she said" situation where neither side can reach an agreement on what's actually true or the interpretations of what's true. The Muslims tend to point to Islamic sources while the non-Muslims tend to point to non-Islamic sources and unnamed translations.

I am requesting you to temporarily suspend your belief in Islamic beliefs for a good reason. I simply want an objective view. If your faith allows you to do so AT MY REQUEST (which Allah will be aware I have stated now that I will take responsibility for you doing if it becomes a problem later if you are confronted by Allah), then please do so.

It might help to remember that "Muslims" are suppose to serve the God that inspired the Prophets, not the Prophets themselves. Islam's biggest problem with Christianity and the Hanif was that those religions seemed to worship & follow the Prophets (Jesus & Abraham respectively) instead of focusing just on the God who sent them. So in all honesty, a Muslim shouldn't really care for all of the personal information of the Prophets. The Qur'an doesn't go into detail on the appearances or even most personal aspects of the Prophets for this very reason. So even though the revered Prophet Moses killed a man in Egypt before receiving the Prophethood, that doesn't change our opinions of the miracles God let him perform.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

I have already written this about some questions below, but will place it here to so that you see it. Some of the questions I ask are not easy to understand if you have never delved into philosophical fields of study. It's not that words are complex in meaning, it's more the way words are ordered and how they might come across AFTER reading and comprehending what you have read, as opposed to reading as you go and then scratching your head after the last word has been read. With that in mind, there are some TRULY (in my view) significant questions that I would highly appreciate you answer. NONE of the questions have been worded with the intention (on my part) to trick or deceive you, it's rather a way to try and remove possible doubt about YOU not understanding WHAT I am asking.

1. I see. May I ask: what is meant by "didn't do?" For example: walking on a street and seeing somebody getting held up at knife-point. If you chose to either restrain the perpetrator until the victim is able to escape and you can safely escape without getting hurt, or what if you instead called for help (police, ambulance) etc.

What I am asking is this: does the consequence of the action you take (the outcome AFTER you restrain the perpetrator or outcome AFTER you call the police) determine whether you "chose not to do something".

(I am not certain of whether English is your first language or not (it seems to be as you write exceptionally well) or if you know much about the study of philosophy — which makes the questions I just asked seem very complex to understand if you have not yourself delved into philosophy before.

2. I see. Interesting: I thought the major differences were to do with whom earned the right to be a prophet's descendant.

3. When you mentioned somebody killing a believer will likely go to Hell. What does the word "believer" actually mean? Is it referring to ANYONE who believes in a single, all powerful and knowledgeable God (Allah)? OR Muslims specifically? And sorry to press further, in the former case, does it mean belief of and submission to God (what I would interpret to mean by believing God exists and demonstrating those beliefs through action.)?

4. Unforgivable Sin part. (as in Allah will not stop you from going there once you commit that sin)?
Initially, I found that to be a VERY strange "gravest sin ever, if you HAVE to sin, make sure you do everything BUT this!" type of reasoning for what appeared to me to be a trivial "sin" - why would a person that believes in a single Creator even want to believe in another God or put anything up to equal status as God anyway?

After a bit of thought, I came up with this:
a) Allah does not want any of Allah's creations being deceived, so Allah ensures to forbid any of Allah's creations to be placed at the same status as Allah to avoid deception?
b) It could also be a statement not to be deceived by other religions...however, if that were the case, wouldn't it more likely to command all creations "not to place anything other than Allah above Allah?

Very interesting, thought-provoking concepts. I look forward to these answers when you get the time.

5. I can relate to that "NOT doing the bare minimum, but doing far and beyond the average amount of effort itself!" type of attitude. Interesting.

6. Trigger warning (skip if you REALLY don't want to answer): I REALLY do find it very problematic that Allah would, if Allah is truly merciful, not allow ANY creation to escape Hell. Surely there must be SOMEBODY with the MORAL APTITUDE necessary to convince ALLAH that even before the WORST OF THE WORST (Satan?), somebody could NOT bow down and still pledge their belief in and submission to Allah.

If you do understand what I mean, I REALLY do hope you can find a way to answer that without it being interpreted by YOU or Allah as an attack/criticism of Allah — I assure you, my reasons for asking are not to provoke or try to make you contradict yourself, I am very curious for my own understanding about the world. It is a serious question.

7. Let's talk exclusively about views of non-Muslims WHO CAN READ Arabic fluently, reading the whole Quran itself for the first time (after putting the WHOLE text into context, not just the individual passages). Do you think they would find Muhammad to be seen in a favourable or unfavourable light (remember, even this person does not share Islamic beliefs)?

8. " So even though the revered Prophet Moses killed a man in Egypt before receiving the Prophethood, that doesn't change our opinions of the miracles God let him perform."

Trigger warning: This question will again require you to consider a complexly worded sentence, which I am aware is not easy to understand for those who have not delved into philosophical fields of study. It is being asked in a certain way to establish clarify, not to trick or deceive: Why would God decide that a person who killed another man while in Egypt was worthy of being granted the "honour" of performing a miracle, and going on to be further revered as a Prophet?

(I have given you some tough questions in this reply, so please take your time and leisure in answering them. I will be back tomorrow.) It's 10:40pm on Sunday 30/04/2017 where I live. I will be back Monday 01/05/2017 in the late afternoon most likely. I WON'T even check before 4:00pm so you have till then, IF you yourself are able to do it by then.

I have received some great information so far. Thank you, I appreciate your elaborate answers. I am getting a far clearer picture of Islam than I did before we started.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Some of the questions I ask are not easy to understand if you have never delved into philosophical fields of study.

Very interesting, thought-provoking concepts. I look forward to these answers when you get the time.

In Islam, what is the gods personal name?

Allah is a title, not a name. Just curious.

What I do see (in sunnah) is Satan personified, as a black Nazarite, so I am rather confused on how anyone in Islam, specifically from the African lineage, is convinced they understand the nature of the religion at all: anti-yeshuah.. The 'turrurists' mark christians for death with N, so it seems 'the turrurists' are following Islams prophet instead of a generic Allah?

Am i correctly assuming that Mohammad is the problem with islam, and not God? Poster above seems to agree in discussion yet in practice all i see is Muhammed worship amongst all Islamic sects, both 'turrurist' and public relations denominations.

So here comes PR, to divert me towards the "sunni vs shiite" distraction.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

1. I see. May I ask: what is meant by "didn't do?"

It includes the things we were capable of doing but refused to do. For example, when people are talking negatively about God, we're supposed to speak up against it or leave the conversation. Otherwise we'll be held just as religiously accountable for the contents of the conversation. However, there's also something about "Oppose with your actions, but if you can't then oppose with your words, and if you can't do that then oppose with your heart". So it may depend on the situation.

In your hypothetical, we would be held at least partially accountable if we didn't do anything to prevent the incident. The Muslims who are trying to prove they're the most steadfast might physically try to stop the attacker, while the Muslims who fear they can't stop the attacker might just call the police, yell, or something like that. Technically, Muslims are only supposed to fear God so our fear shouldn't be a factor. But we're still human so...

2. I see. Interesting: I thought the major differences were to do with whom earned the right to be a prophet's descendant.

Not sure what you're referring to here. But if it helps, I trace absolutely none of my lineage to the Prophet or even to Arabs in general. That shouldn't matter though since Islam is a personal choice and not a genetic one.

3. When you mentioned somebody killing a believer will likely go to Hell. What does the word "believer" actually mean? Is it referring to ANYONE who believes in a single, all powerful and knowledgeable God (Allah)? OR Muslims specifically? And sorry to press further, in the former case, does it mean belief of and submission to God (what I would interpret to mean by believing God exists and demonstrating those beliefs through action.)?

The word it literally uses is "mu'minan" which simply means "a believer" (HERE). It doesn't say "Muslim". For the record, Christians, Jews, and Sabians are all mentioned in the Qur'an as fellow believers and "People of the Scripture/Book" (like in Surahs 2:62, 5:69 and 22:17). So it's likely referring to anyone who worships the single, all powerful and knowledgeable God.

4. Unforgivable Sin part.

I like your way of thinking. Your observations are probably a large part of it.

Another angle is our concept of the Devil/Iblis/Shaytan. We believe he is a Jinn whose only power is the power of persuasion. We believe he is the source of all evil, not because he's a powerful monster that commands the forces of evil, but because he's basically the little voice that convinces people to do something bad. His basic story is told in (Surah 7:11-27).

So we believe that Iblis/Shaytan knows the truth about God yet he's intentionally misguiding humankind with false beliefs until Judgment Day.

5. I can relate to that "NOT doing the bare minimum, but doing far and beyond the average amount of effort itself!" type of attitude. Interesting.

Yeah but it's kind of dangerous lol. I should note that I'm a pacifist and that my extreme version of religious "success" would be to get humanity to reject all negativity. You could say that I want to get humans to reject all of the Devil's/Shaytan's influences

I say it's "dangerous" though because the "going beyond the minimum" perspective can lead to zealotry and extremism. That's why I noted that I only try to go far & beyond the bare minimum with myself. A lot of the controversial "Islamic" teachings don't come from actual requirements, but instead come from people being too effin strict "just to be safe". For examples, the Qur'an doesn't mention a lot of crap like gender separation for prayers, stoning to death for crimes, or circumcision (male or female genital mutilation). But that doesn't stop some people from being extra strict "just in case".

6. I REALLY do find it very problematic that Allah would, if Allah is truly merciful, not allow ANY creation to escape Hell. Surely there must be SOMEBODY with the MORAL APTITUDE necessary to convince ALLAH that even before the WORST OF THE WORST (Satan?), somebody could NOT bow down and still pledge their belief in and submission to Allah.

I think that's literally the point in our lives on Earth. This is our chance to convince Him of that. Every single day that we wake up, we could choose to change our behavior and treat His other creations well.

I'm probably in the minority with this, but I don't think the only "believers" are necessarily followers of the scriptures. I've met far too many warmongers & oppressive people who believe that God is real, and too many genuinely kindhearted peacemakers who might not believe in any higher being at all. I think that's where the weight of sins and possible sins comes into play. I'd personally rather be around kindhearted atheists than around misogynist "believers".

7. Let's talk exclusively about views of non-Muslims WHO CAN READ Arabic fluently, reading the whole Quran itself for the first time (after putting the WHOLE text into context, not just the individual passages). Do you think they would find Muhammad to be seen in a favourable or unfavourable light (remember, even this person does not share Islamic beliefs)?

I dunno. The Qur'an doesn't actually talk much about the Prophet Muhammad. In fact, the prophet who's mentioned the most in the Qur'an is the Prophet Moses. For example, the 1st Surah/Revelation in the Qur'an is simply the "Opening" while the 2nd is named after the Golden Calf that the Israelites worshiped when the Prophet Moses went to Mount Sinai. There's another named after Mother Mary/Mariam, another named after the Prophet Abraham/Ibrahim, another named after Jinn, another named after the Prophet Noah/Nooh.

A lot of the things that refer to the Prophet Muhammad are orders for him to say stuff to the listener, such as "Say (Oh Muhammad): We believe in...". Even the 2 passages I listed in my first post in this thread are like that. You'll find most of the stuff about the Prophet Muhammad's life and his personal teachings in the Sunnah and Hadith. The Qur'an is simply the teachings of God Himself (according to our beliefs, of course).

Why would God decide that a person who killed another man while in Egypt was worthy of being granted the "honour" of performing a miracle, and going on to be further revered as a Prophet?

Honestly, I don't know. But for the record, the Qur'an has quite a few interesting examples with Prophets. It mentions a few times when Prophets tried to run away or complained about being Prophets altogether. The Prophet Muhammad himself could neither read nor write and was supposedly terrified the first time he encountered an Angel.

I have received some great information so far. Thank you, I appreciate your elaborate answers. I am getting a far clearer picture of Islam than I did before we started.

It's all good. I'll check back late Monday.

a reply to: BigBangWasAnEcho

The Qur'an has many different names for God, with "Allah" being the "real name". Just think of the Semitic and Canaanite terms El, Eloh, Elohim, and Elah (Arabic is also a Semitic language). Even Arab Christians call God "Allah".

And no, the Prophet Muhammad isn't the problem. Interpretations of things that are attributed to the Prophet Muhammad and his companions are the problem. The Prophet Muhammad and the 1st 9 Caliphs after his death only allowed Islamic teachings from the Qur'an itself. The additional teachings and traditions only started being written down during the 10th Caliph's era, and then it was done unofficially. It was more than 160 years after the Prophet's death when the major collection of teachings & traditions were officially collected, cross checked, and treated as authentic. You can't blame the long-dead Prophet for that.

And just for the record, Ethiopians were one of the largest groups among the Prophet Muhammad's people. In fact, the Ethiopian Christian Emperor allowed some of the Prophet Muhammad's first followers to safely live there in exile during what is called the 1st Hijrah. This was to escape persecution from the Prophet Muhammad's powerful clan, the Quraysh, whom he was opposing.

a reply to: Dark Ghost
Hey Dark Ghost! We may have interacted before, but I don't exactly remember. Anyhow, I'll try responding to your questions as best I can. I might have a slightly different perspective than enlightenedservant, so I'll answer you first before checking his responses.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
1) I am aware that Allah is the most high authority in Islamic belief. Allah created EVERYTHING, Allah can do ANYTHING, Allah is the most important aspect of Islamic beliefs (regardless of any denomination). Am I correct in this belief?

Yes, mostly. But "most high" while technically correct, may give a wrong impression especially relating to phrasing in english (the phrase is, however an approximate translation of one of God's titles). There are humans, and then there is God. Nothing inbetween. There are good humans, great humans, prophetic humans, great prophetic humans, but they're all just human, and that is hammered into muslims all over the Quran. But then there is God.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
2) Muhammad (peace be upon him) is highly revered. He is NOT seen as being as important to the extent that Allah is, but in terms of being a mortal human, Muhammad would be considered the most significant of all time. Mainly because he is the mortal who, through the Archangel Gabriel, received the divine words of Allah and was able to express those words to others, who then wrote them down and compiled the Quran. Is what I just said correct in regard to all Muslims, regardless of denomination.

I don't think Muhammad ﷺ would be considered the most significant human of all time. There are certain hadith that would like to portray that, but they're generally regarded as "untrustworthy" (an assigned level of hadith authenticity). Muhammad's significance is that he is supposed to be the Seal of the Prophets, the last one, and that he's the best examples for his followers in their religion.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
3) To me, as a secular agnostic, I am able to separate religious views or belief systems (e.g. Islam or Science) from people themselves (e.g. Muslims or Scientists), do you feel I am allowed to do this in our following discussion?

Allowed to? You're on a public forum, you're allowed to do anything allowed in the T&Cs. Even in terms of a muslim reading what you say, I don't see why someone would not like that? I mean, it isn't an invalid viewpoint (that the religion is a thing separate from the beliefs of all its followers).

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
1. I am NOT challenging your belief in Allah when I ask this: As a Muslim yourself, do you acknowledge the existence of a Hell?
2. Thank you for explaining. That puts things for me into far better perspective.

Hell exists, yes, but it has some slight differences from what you might understand as someone with a (presumably) western/judeo-christian background. For all but the worst of sinners, it is not a permanent place- of course, we're also exhorted as muslims not to use that as an excuse to sin and be all "I'll get to heaven eventually"). Of course, it is also said that God may forgive any sin except one (associating partners with God).

The rest of your questions seem specifically tailored to enlightened, so I'll end here for now.

a reply to: babloyi

Yeah, I forgot to add the part about him being the Seal of the Prophets.

a reply to: enlightenedservant



Etymology via Wiki:


The etymology of the word Allāh has been discussed extensively by classical Arab philologists.[17] Grammarians of the Basra school regarded it as either formed "spontaneously" (murtajal) or as the definite form of lāh (from the verbal root lyh with the meaning of "lofty" or "hidden").[17] Others held that it was borrowed from Syriac or Hebrew, but most considered it to be derived from a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- "the" and ilāh "deity, god" to al-lāh meaning "the deity", or "the God".[17]

In Islamic tradition, there are 99 Names of God (al-asmā’ al-ḥusná lit. meaning: 'the best names' or 'the most beautiful names'), each of which evoke a distinct characteristic of Allah..[12][48] All these names refer to Allah, the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name.[49]