Poverty Is A Disease

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Edumakated

Can you tell me how the author is incorrect?

Just a follow up comment. To be clear, I do believe that there are some children who do experience a type of traumatic stress related to growing up in impoverished areas. However, it isn't so much the poverty per se as it is the societal rot causing the stress. For example, if you grow up on the west side of Chicago were every kid is gang banging, you see meth/heroin addicts tweaking out, the threat of gun violence, teen mothers, etc I do think it affects many of these children negatively. The thing is this is not the poverty but the social and cultural failing of the larger community.

There are poor communities in which these behaviors are not all that common, so you can't just say "poverty". If it were poverty, then it would be across all poorer communities but it is not.

a reply to: Edumakated

From a most basic level...what effect does this stress have on a persons innate ability to handle stress.

What effect does this physiological change ripple into?

I think this is what is being asked. There are measurable effects on genetic expression via methylation limiting the expression of your DNA.

IT'S A Disease when you have NO MONEY !!!

originally posted by: XxitsTtimexX
a reply to: neo96

I agree it is something anyone can overcome if they put the work in. I grew up poor single mom working two jobs with 4 kids. I dropped out of highschool, but through hard work and dedication I have built up a fairly impressive resume and recently landed a job that pays almost 60k a year, with the opportunity to move into a higher position.

No, this is untrue.

I am quite a bit more intelligent than an average person, and have much more aptitude and insight than anyone i personally know (outside of a couple of mentors I have). Im the guy who wins every game of trivia and no one wants to play with.

Even with these advantages gifted me by the Creator (who/whatever that may be), were it not for a series of lucky breaks, including having grandparents who owned rent houses, i would have never had a chance to "make it".

I work my ass off, so theres never been an issue of effort. Its just opportunity. Which is the issue in inner cities: they are deserts of opportunity. I could go on for pages on that topic, actually.

Someone else here mentions the social impact of poverty hitting so hard in the US...and social connections are a huge part of our success. It all ties to opportunity. You increase opportunity by increasing networks. Which means more social contacts.

Anyway, its a similar but different topic that i've thought about writing on for a year or so.

originally posted by: bobw927
IT'S A Disease when you have NO MONEY !!!

Rather, its a disease where the vector is money.

Chew on that one.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: XxitsTtimexX
a reply to: neo96

I agree it is something anyone can overcome if they put the work in. I grew up poor single mom working two jobs with 4 kids. I dropped out of highschool, but through hard work and dedication I have built up a fairly impressive resume and recently landed a job that pays almost 60k a year, with the opportunity to move into a higher position.

No, this is untrue.

I am quite a bit more intelligent than an average person, and have much more aptitude and insight than anyone i personally know (outside of a couple of mentors I have). Im the guy who wins every game of trivia and no one wants to play with.

Even with these advantages gifted me by the Creator (who/whatever that may be), were it not for a series of lucky breaks, including having grandparents who owned rent houses, i would have never had a chance to "make it".

I work my ass off, so theres never been an issue of effort. Its just opportunity. Which is the issue in inner cities: they are deserts of opportunity. I could go on for pages on that topic, actually.

Someone else here mentions the social impact of poverty hitting so hard in the US...and social connections are a huge part of our success. It all ties to opportunity. You increase opportunity by increasing networks. Which means more social contacts.

Anyway, its a similar but different topic that i've thought about writing on for a year or so.

There are opportunity abounds. The issue is some people are such victims of their present circumstance that they fail to recognize the opportunities given to them.

I see this all the time. People unable to make good decisions because they live for the moment instead of the future. A good example of this was a childhood friend of mine. By most measures he had a good middle class life. However, he could just not stay out of trouble. He constantly hung out with the bad crowd, got a couple of chicks pregnant in high school, etc. Couldn't hold a steady job. Just a constant screw up.

My father had some connections and was able to get him a look to be a fireman which was a phenomenal opportunity. This dumb ass decided to smoke some weed and failed the drug test. Opportunity completely pissed away.

Me on the other hand hanging out with friends had the foresight to pass on a blunt when I was offered a great investment banking internship by chance (I happened to sit next to a recruiter at a school event, struck up a conversation and got myself an interview totally by chance). I knew I didn't want to screw it up by failing a drug test.

Life often times is a serious of little decisions. My friend would be a poster child for poverty. Can't hold a steady job. In and out of minimum wage jobs, etc. However, when you peel back the onion, he is entirely responsible for his own situation.

a reply to: Edumakated

Why are most employees of Walmart on public assistance?

I don't think anyone can deny that stress ( of any type or cause ) causes problems with health or genetics.

However, the state of poverty has AT LEAST as much to do with poor decision making. I have been poor, and still deal with poor people on an almost day to day basis. I can say unequivocally that 95% of them are where they are because of poor decisions. This is based on my own conversations and anecdotal evidence.

A lot of the problem is that those in the government train people to be dependent. When Uncle Sugar is a father/breadwinner substitute, and a poor one at that, it causes entire generations to learn to be dependant and not do for themselves.

If you want more of ANYTHING, get the government to subsidize it.

I am where I am in life because of decisions I've made, not genetics or luck.

originally posted by: cynicalheathen
I don't think anyone can deny that stress ( of any type or cause ) causes problems with health or genetics.

However, the state of poverty has AT LEAST as much to do with poor decision making. I have been poor, and still deal with poor people on an almost day to day basis. I can say unequivocally that 95% of them are where they are because of poor decisions. This is based on my own conversations and anecdotal evidence.

A lot of the problem is that those in the government train people to be dependent. When Uncle Sugar is a father/breadwinner substitute, and a poor one at that, it causes entire generations to learn to be dependant and not do for themselves.

If you want more of ANYTHING, get the government to subsidize it.

I am where I am in life because of decisions I've made, not genetics or luck.

So...if methylation can alter the expression of DNA....

....and this has been shown to result in changes with how decisions are made via changes in how the brain handles stress...

....how much of the poor decision making is actually a choice vs trying to think through a genetially created haze? Im sure that if you live in high stress situations, being hardwired to think quickly in high stress situations would benefit you. In todays world, however, its an absolute handicap.

My wife works with forensic mental patients. The #1 issue is deficits in delayed gratification. This is something I can see poverty creating. Why delay gratification when there's a chance the resource won't be there later? How does delaying gratification in an environment where scarcity is the rule benefit anyone? What are the chances that poverty could create epigentic issues that create this "issue" where people choose to consume immediately as a hedge against loss?

a reply to: Edumakated

If you truly believe opportunity abounds, you should visit more of America. Because it doesn't.

I live in West Texas. Opportunity absolutely does not abound here. Here, you either kick your ass to scratch out a subsistance life, or you go on welfare. Every now and then oil spikes and everyone can get a job and buy new furniture and stuff (you can only hand me down a couch so many times). But during "bust years" you are are left with few choices for employment.

For me, i got lucky and made it in a call center that operated here for 10 years. Learned some good skills that I could try to use elsewhere. A few other people rode the same train out of here. Most, once the call center closed down, disappeared into the typical west texas jobs, with some of the ladies getting CDL's and doing day trips of water for local companies.

Inner cities are the same. opportunities are limited. Sometimes by geography, sometimes by culture. There's another thread on here talking about "ebonics". As if children choose their accents.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I'm sure it is a contributing factor, but then how do you fix it?

Surely not by continuing to subsidize poverty for votes. We can't as a society afford to do that now. I can't imagine taking even more from the producers to give to the takers. At a certain tipping point, the producers say "screw it, I'm going to be a taker too."

It is a difficult question with no easy answer.

Maybe we just have to accept that the world needs ditch-diggers too...

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Edumakated

If you truly believe opportunity abounds, you should visit more of America. Because it doesn't.

I live in West Texas. Opportunity absolutely does not abound here. Here, you either kick your ass to scratch out a subsistance life, or you go on welfare. Every now and then oil spikes and everyone can get a job and buy new furniture and stuff (you can only hand me down a couch so many times). But during "bust years" you are are left with few choices for employment.

For me, i got lucky and made it in a call center that operated here for 10 years. Learned some good skills that I could try to use elsewhere. A few other people rode the same train out of here. Most, once the call center closed down, disappeared into the typical west texas jobs, with some of the ladies getting CDL's and doing day trips of water for local companies.

Inner cities are the same. opportunities are limited. Sometimes by geography, sometimes by culture. There's another thread on here talking about "ebonics". As if children choose their accents.

Immigrants willing to leave their families behind or float across shark infested waters and cross deserts to get the opportunities we have here would disagree with you.

Part of the problem we have here is that everyone wants things now. No one wants to work for it. I see kids in the hood selling dope because they think they need to be able to have a Benz at 20 years old, not because they have no opportunity to earn a living. People's priorities are mixed up and no one wants to own up to being the captain of their own ship.

Everyone is not dealt a good set of cards. However, you have to play your hand. There are always going to be some people who have it easier than others and some people who have to claw and work their fingers to the bone just to survive. No amount of social justice and wealth redistribution is going to change this fact.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

I don't have answers. I just have articles i read that make me think. Perhaps that is step 1: us identifying the problem (step 2 would be getting consensus so step 3 would work....planning for effect).

But the article i linked had one idea that would cause controversy....and likely work on 2 fronts: pay parents to take their kids to school. THe primary effect is ensuring kids get educations. The secondary, possible effect would be potentially alleviating some level of poverty.

Is it doable? Not likely. No one I know would approve of this without severe heartburn. But it is thinking differently, which is critical if we are to try to solve problems that we have yet failed to solve.

a reply to: Edumakated

My great grandfather was a poor gypsy Hungarian that only made it to the US through luck and happenstance. So im not sure that those immigrants you refer to would disagree with me so much.

RE: wanting things now...i made a post on that on this page. Delayed gratification is absolutely a problem. GIven the research in the OP....can you be certain it isn't an epigenetic response to scarcity? I can see situations where not being able to delay gratification would benefit you. I have 3 dogs, and none of them can delay gratification, and will instead just swallow food whole to ensure they get as much as they can. Its hardwired into them, despite none of them (other than the shelter dog we have) has ever seen scarcity.

There is no single cause of poverty, some people are convicted criminals and no one will hire them, some people are mentally and physically lazy and don`t want to spend the time and effort it would take to lift themselves out of poverty, and yes there are even some people who like living in poverty.
one thing is for sure though poverty is more than just a financial problem it effects people mentally too.

poverty is probably more of a mental illness than anything else, once your thinking processes are messed up there isn`t much hope that you`ll be able to figure out how to get yourself out of poverty.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Edumakated

Why are most employees of Walmart on public assistance?

Because it is an unskilled low paying minimum wage job not intended to be anyone's career. You are free raise capital, risk your own money, and open up your own version of Wal-Mart and pay your employees a "living wage" while offering your customers the lowest prices they can find.

If it is so easy and companies are just being greedy, then in a free market it should be easy for you to compete and open your own store and manage it the way you see fit by including social justice as part of your company culture.

Put your own money up to support your ideology if you believe in it so much.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Edumakated

My great grandfather was a poor gypsy Hungarian that only made it to the US through luck and happenstance. So im not sure that those immigrants you refer to would disagree with me so much.

RE: wanting things now...i made a post on that on this page. Delayed gratification is absolutely a problem. GIven the research in the OP....can you be certain it isn't an epigenetic response to scarcity? I can see situations where not being able to delay gratification would benefit you. I have 3 dogs, and none of them can delay gratification, and will instead just swallow food whole to ensure they get as much as they can. Its hardwired into them, despite none of them (other than the shelter dog we have) has ever seen scarcity.

I am not going to compare poor people to dogs... The thing is though I know people who aren't poor by any stretch of the word who can't seem to think long-term. If it is hardwired, I don't know that it is from poverty though. It just may be the case that those people are MORE LIKELY to find themselves impoverished. Correlation does not equal causation.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

You are pretty right on your assertion of what you believe. Cause and effect could be epigenetic but it is also learned behavior. We had a farm and grew lots of veggies and both my parents worked, we were middle class people in our town. I can contest that nutrition does effect your ability to think and comprehend, but diet has to be matched to your ancestors eating habits if they were friendly and sane and healthy somewhat. The article addressed comparing evidence and properly evaluating it, I would like to see a lot more of that going on. Right now, as in the past, there is a lot of misinterpreted information out there.

a reply to: Edumakated

The study mentions that genetic issues arising from starvation and the holocaust were seen to take 2-3 generations to work out.

FWIW, im not comparing people to dogs. If you thought that, you should re-read what i said and then ask me to clarify if you still think that.

One more FWIW, i would never insult dogs by comparing people to them. Dogs are far better creatures than humans could ever be.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Tried reading a bit. Correct me if I'm wrong...this is nothing more than same old...stress did it. Poverty in this case is (according to your link) just a trigger for the real biology changer. Stress.

But this is hardly a poverty issue. Stress is abound...from impoverished to the multimillionaire.

As for poverty...speaking exclusively for the US...the land of opportunity...no ? well...it appears that some just dont know how to take opportunities or do you claim that the system in place is hell bent against certain nameless individuals ?