Misquoting Jesus in the Bible

a reply to: Raggedyman

If one believes in God he believes his words. and in his word he says he will preserve them to every generation forever. This is important seeing men and the devil want to cause confusion and followers after them own selves. With a preserved word God gives us his truth and his words exactly how he intended them when he fist spoke them and inspired them.

a reply to: Raggedyman

what are you kidding. Ps 12 says words not the Word. See even you would have to change it to make it what you want it to be. Dangerous ground to be on when MISQUOTING the Bible.

BTW we are not worshiping our Bible we worship God, who is Jesus and hold great importance just as he does in magnifying it above his name.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

there are no originals available today. ALL documents we have are only copies and we have no way of verifying them with the original because we have none to do so. This has been the problem for 180 plus years a lie is being taught that the fragments and manuscripts men have are the ORIGINALS. They are not they are copies only and are full of errors.

But God's word, the Holy Bible says, he will keep them and preserve them to every generation. So there is One Bible Version in English that is for this generation of English speaking people that God has used Holy Men to inspire and preserve those words through. The only Bible that has ALL the verses, phrases and words in it is the AV.

Jesus says seek and ye shall find. I did just that and have found it to be a truth.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

One of the many problems with the AV is that the NT comes from Textus Receptus, which is a mash up of Byzantine manuscripts. The Byzantine families have the widest range of variants than most other groups of manuscripts. On top of that, the Byzantine empire tried restricting the Bible for theocratic reasons. So why trust the AV only.

If you like AV, use it, but you should always compare what you're reading to other copies to check for variants.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Raggedyman

If one believes in God he believes his words. and in his word he says he will preserve them to every generation forever. This is important seeing men and the devil want to cause confusion and followers after them own selves. With a preserved word God gives us his truth and his words exactly how he intended them when he fist spoke them and inspired them.

If your relationship hinges on the word of the bible being perfect then God bless you sincerely
I don't need to think or know the bible is perfect to accept that Jesus is perfect.
I can accept there are faults in the bible, not serious faults but faults.
It doesn't detract from me knowing, loving and living my life as a follower, servant of Jesus in any way.
The bible being in places imperfect helps me realise that as a christian, I need a relationship with the Spirit in my life.
I am imperfect, this world is broken, I can't afford to be.
My life must be the fruit of the Spirit to love and serve my Saviour, I don't serve the bible

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

One of the many problems with the AV is that the NT comes from Textus Receptus, which is a mash up of Byzantine manuscripts. The Byzantine families have the widest range of variants than most other groups of manuscripts. On top of that, the Byzantine empire tried restricting the Bible for theocratic reasons. So why trust the AV only. If you like AV, use it, but you should always compare what you're reading to other copies to check for variants.

Not True at all. The NT of the 1611 KJV bible used the majority of the MSS that was available at that time and since that time additional MSS have been revealed but have not affected what was already in the KJV. How did that work? The translators along with their hundreds of researchers gathered all available MSS and compared those MSS for a number of different characters which was primarily agreeable MSS in textual content. That first step created two distinct groups of MSS and the group which agreed with each other the most was used for the translation into what was called the 1611 KJV. The others were not used even if they were much older MSS. The age of the MS did not necessarily mean textual accuracy. This is what we call majority text.

The majority MSS of today numbers well over 5,000 and among that number about 96% agree as majority text. This is what the KJV is translated from. Most all modern bibles today are based upon the 4% of corrupt MSS that were discarded in 1611. Who is responsible for this? The two main characters are two Englishmen named Westcott and Hort who were at best non Christian. I urge you to google them and read this history.

Quote
1860 Apr. 3rd - Hort: "But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with. I must work out and examine the argument in more detail, but at present my feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable." (Life, Vol.I, p.416).
Unquote

That is the man who is the foundation of most all modern bibles today.

Then why all the other bibles? Most all of the other translations were created from MSS which pleased the doctrines and pocket books. Pocket Books? Yes pocket books. Jw's "New World Translation" is a typical example. For many years they used the 1611 KJV bible and then created their own rendition to suit their doctrine and pocket book. Have you heard the words "copy right?" That is the money end of this game. Every body who is a JW must discard their KJV bibles and buy their New World Translation bible. Are you aware of the money end of this change? Well it is staggering pocket change at the least.

Nevertheless what may be believed, facts are facts and the fact is that 96% of the Greek MSS of the NT was used as the Textus Receptus in the translation and interpretations of the AV bible. A feat that has never since been accomplished. This took 47 scholars and seven years to complete with hundreds of others who assisted in this task. It included the 14 books of the apocrypha and the Hebrew/Aramaic translations/interpretations of the OT. The OT can now be compared with accuracy with the DSS which is almost 100%.

The failures of the bible can be the krypton to many christians
It's not even lukewarm to me

Jesus is Jesus, I am, He is all

a reply to: Akragon

I think you just don't like Dr Ehrman, and would likely side with anyone pro Christian... regardless of the outcome

No, I do not call you a liar. I do not agree with you but I do not hate or despise you. Most generally I do not discuss videos simply because it is a matter of another person's opinions of which one is not privy to debate. In this case is no exception. Ehrman is totally confused and does not understand the Hebrew/Christian God or the purpose of the Hebrew/Christian creation. At best he is not well educated in this matter. My opinion of course.

In order to debate a subject one must take one point at a time and not cloud the debate with other connected issues and you cannot do this in a video which is clouded with half truths such as this man presents.

WWII came to a close and many Jews fled to Jerusalem and as they reformed a nation they became more ungodly than before the war or during the war. Why? Because they blamed God for all their troubles. Where was this God of Moses in their need from starvation and murder? He took care of their ancestors in the wilderness and fought their wars in the days of Joshua. Now this God lets us starve and be murdered by the millions. Bah-- I don't believe a word of that crap anymore. That was the attitude of the average Jew after the war.

I sat here watching this great professor Ehrman and the same spiel that I heard as a young man in Europe in the forties. Exactly the very same spiel from the mouth of a man who turned away from the very God he had taught others about. Nothing new actually. This whole nation has done this same thing. Bah-- I don't believe that crap. Blame God for what you did not do. Not what you did do but what you did not do.

The president of the Philippines saw the needs of the people and what did he do? He made shovels and rakes and gave the people these tools and seeds to plant. What did the people do? they sold the tools and seeds and cried out that God forsook them. You think that is not true? That is a fact. They became malnourished and starved their children and then turned to drugs to ease their misery. Bah-- I don't believe that crap anymore. Blame God cause He didn't give what they craved.

End of sermon. End of what I need to say. Ehrman who spent his entire life in schools living off the fat of the land teaching others to say Bah-- I don't need that crap. What a mentor for the human race. He lost that debate big time.
My opinion of course

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Akragon

Dr. Ehrman is correct in the fact that there are many variants between the many copies of both the OT and NT. What he probably doesn't know is that every book of the Bible seems to be metered in Heptameter, equipped with multiple anaphorical phrases and refrains (in each passage) that are spaced apart from each other in syllable totals that are divisible by seven. In all the apparent chaos that we have with these variants, somewhere the infallible Word of God is waiting to be rediscovered, like a needle in a haystack.


Here is where I initially learned about the existence of the Bible Heptameter, and ever since then, I have been counting the syllables myself. With the help of other believers, I have worked on (or am working on) Zephaniah, Matt 24-25, Revelation 17, and Ecclesiastes. In order to do this properly, you have to be able to count syllables in Hebrew and Greek. You have to learn how the Greeks often used elisions and krasis in their Classical meter styles. Its time consuming work, but it isn't hard.

So I can see why people say that the original words of the Bible is lost forever, but isn't true. It's just waiting to be rediscovered.

Interesting. So which translation of the bible do you use for counting syllables?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Raggedyman

Raggedy, you know that Psalm 12:6,7 is speaking of his spoken words which are recorded in a book for man to hold and study in his hand.

Jesus is God and needs no preserving.

have you not read on how important God's word is to him?

Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. ]/b]

I am his temple, I praise Jesus Name and God has magnified his word above all they name. If his word is that important to magnify it above all his name. We all better take heed to what his word says. and it says he will preserve it to every generation forever. Believe it or not it is a choice and an act of faith in God like our salvation in Christ finished work of the cross.

A good read is "The Mystic Christ" by Ethan Walker III. He demonstrates over and over how words with different translations are used and how different translations profoundly change the message. Unfortunately, the translations used only go to support the convoluted narrative that ultimately serves those in power and not us.

a reply to: Mike.Ockizard

I use Hebrew OT and Greek NT. Sometimes a manuscript composite template must be generated to sort out the variants, but when the right combination is found and the elisions/krasis are correct, the anaphorical clauses/phrases will fall into place like a puzzle.

I provided a link with some introductory videos.

a reply to: Seede

Ehrman is totally confused and does not understand the Hebrew/Christian God or the purpose of the Hebrew/Christian creation. At best he is not well educated in this matter. My opinion of course.

Ok... so this man teaches NT studies at a university, yet hes not Christian anymore... which speaks volumes in itself

He WAS a fundamentalist Christian Pastor in the past... which means he even believed in the doctrine of infallibility, which of course is nonsense, but this adds to the idea that he was a very devout Christian

How can you possibly believe he is confused, or not well educated on the subject?

End of sermon. End of what I need to say. Ehrman who spent his entire life in schools living off the fat of the land teaching others to say Bah-- I don't need that crap. What a mentor for the human race. He lost that debate big time.
My opinion of course

lol... So again, you just don't like him because he lost faith in Christianity...

and i respectfully disagree... He didn't lose that debate

But that video isn't what this thread is about.... Its about what Jesus said in the gospels...

And by the way, He is correct... all one has to do is read each account side by side as suggested in the video

originally posted by: Mike.Ockizard

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Raggedyman

Unfortunately, the translations used only go to support the convoluted narrative that ultimately serves those in power and not us.

How?

I read this sort of comment on a regular basis but I can never figure it out
How do these translations only support those in power
I see nothing in the bible that takes the power from the individual and hands it to the state or church
In fact, it's clear Christ took the power away from the church altogether

Please explain why you think that

a reply to: Akragon

Ok... so this man teaches NT studies at a university, yet hes not Christian anymore... which speaks volumes in itself He WAS a fundamentalist Christian Pastor in the past... which means he even believed in the doctrine of infallibility, which of course is nonsense, but this adds to the idea that he was a very devout Christian How can you possibly believe he is confused, or not well educated on the subject?

My opinions of course.
To me Ehrman is like a man teaching math and cannot add. He teaches the NT and the OT and yet does not understand the purpose of creation. I find that almost unbelievable if I had not known of his past. A pastor is supposed to be a man of strength and a leader of the weak and strong. He performs marriage vows, calls on the sick, educates the ignorant, buries the dead and prays for all people. And yet this man could not even understand why we have suffering. He lost his faith and teaches others about this faith that he lost and does not understand. Yet the seminar that he attended either did not teach him or he could not understand. I find that the most obscene of all.

The blind man (Maximin) who Jesus healed, was born blind for the very purpose of being healed by Jesus and became a evangelizing preacher in Briton where he founded a village chapel and died in peace. I doubt that Ehrman could ever bring himself to teach this man's suffering. Joseph of Arimathea who cared for Jesus' mother, buried Jesus and lost his great wealth and became a evangelist for his nephew who was the Christ. And yet in my life time of visiting numerous churches and attending numerous sermons have not heard one preacher teach the doctrine of Jesus.

What did Jesus teach the Apostles? He taught them that they would be hated, scorned and face death for the faith in Him and His Father. Yet Ehrman did not understand why people suffered and it is as plain as the nose on his face.

Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat_24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Luk_21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Three Apostles tell Ehrdman the answer yet this man with a PHD cannot see the answers that are as plain as day. What a shame he teaches others this confusion.

originally posted by: Akragon


Ok... so this man teaches NT studies at a university, yet hes not Christian anymore... which speaks volumes in itself

He WAS a fundamentalist Christian Pastor in the past... which means he even believed in the doctrine of infallibility, which of course is nonsense, but this adds to the idea that he was a very devout Christian

How can you possibly believe he is confused, or not well educated on the subject?

This is the problem with christians who put their faith in the bible and not in Christ
They are fragile, their relationship is based on the bible, not faith in Jesus

a reply to: Seede

You have done more research than I have on the Authorized Version (AV) and Textus Receptus, so I won't argue with you on that. I will say that there are significant differences between the AV and the modern translations, which are based on what are believed to be older materials.

Simply comparing UBS to say, Textus Receptus or Byz Maj, there is enough of a difference to both change the meaning of various passages and disrupt the delicate integrity of the heptameter. From the Gospels to the book of Revelation, there are many variants. I think one of the most troubling cases would be Mark 16:9-20. There are many scholars who would argue, that portion of text does not belong there, yet the AV included it.

I think it is unwise to accept one single translation or set of MSS as the "divinely preserved Word". If we are ever to determine what the original Word of God says, we will have to do it by comparing the NT heptameter to that of the OT, from which point the vetting can begin.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

It is not about our determining what the preserved word of God is. But believing God has preserved it and then believing it. The AV I believe is that Preserved Bible in English.

a reply to: Mike.Ockizard

I am in no power and his preserved word in the AV serves only to help me know him and his will better. If I preach it is to help others to grow in their knowledge of Christ and his will for us in this life because of the security he gives us in the next.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

it is not about which and what text the translators had available it is about them allowing God to use them to preserve his words to this generation of English speaking people. That means they prayerfully allowed God the Holy Ghost to guide and lead them with the correct interpretation into English.

a reply to: Seede

My opinions of course.
To me Ehrman is like a man teaching math and cannot add. He teaches the NT and the OT and yet does not understand the purpose of creation. I find that almost unbelievable if I had not known of his past. A pastor is supposed to be a man of strength and a leader of the weak and strong. He performs marriage vows, calls on the sick, educates the ignorant, buries the dead and prays for all people. And yet this man could not even understand why we have suffering. He lost his faith and teaches others about this faith that he lost and does not understand.

Well again, i find it extremely ignorant to say that he is confused on the issue of suffereing, or that he doesn't understand it... the fact is he understands it all TOO well... his issue is that he could not reconcile what the bible says about the issue with his faith, which is why he lost it.

His position is quite understandable... and he teaches it to his students in the hope that they use their God given ability which most Christians lack... critical thinking. Even in the opening of some of his lectures he says specifically... i probably won't change your mind on these issues, all i ask is that you think rationally and keep an open mind about what is discussed

also keep in mind He teaches university studies on the NT. And hes good at it, otherwise he wouldn't have held his position at chapel hill for as long as he has... He isn't a preacher, nor is he a christian so i wouldn't expect him to resort to his own personal opinions and Christian theology of the NT as most preachers do, which also seems to be what you're expecting of him

He is a NT scholar... and he tells it like it is, unlike most of the people he debates

Suffering increasingly became a problem for me and my faith. How can one explain all the pain and misery in the world if God—the creator and redeemer of all—is sovereign over it, exercising his will both on the grand scheme and in the daily workings of our lives? Why, I asked, is there such rampant starvation in the world? Why are there droughts, epidemics, hurricanes, and earthquakes? If God answers prayer, why didn’t he answer the prayers of the faithful Jews during the Holocaust? Or of the faithful Christians who also suffered torment and death at the hands of the Nazis? If God is concerned to answer my little prayers about my daily life, why didn’t he answer my and others’ big prayers when millions were being slaughtered by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, when a mudslide killed 30,000 Columbians in their sleep, in a matter of minutes, when disasters of all kinds caused by humans and by nature happened in the world?
I read widely in the matter. I read philosophers, theologians, biblical scholars, great literary figures and popular authors from Plato to Sartre, from Apuleius to Dostoevsky, from the Apostle Paul to Henri Nouwen, from Shakespeare to T.S. Eliot to Archibald Macleish, from C. S. Lewis (with whom I was very taken) to Harold Kushner to Elie Wiesel.
Eventually, while still a Christian thinker, I came to believe that God himself is deeply concerned with suffering and intimately involved with it. The Christian message, for me, at the time, was that Jesus Christ is the revelation of God to us humans, and that in Jesus we can see how God deals with the world and relates to it. He relates to it, I thought, not by conquering it but by suffering for it. Jesus was not set on a throne in Jerusalem to rule over the Kingdom of God. He was crucified by the Romans, suffering a painful, excruciating, and humiliating death for us. What is God like? He is a God who suffers. The way he deals with suffering is by suffering both for us and alongside us.
This was my view for many years, and I still consider it a powerful theological view. It would be a view that I would still hold on to, if I were still a Christian. But I’m not.
About nine or ten years ago I came to realize that I simply no longer believed the Christian message. A large part of my movement away from the faith was driven by my concern for suffering. I simply no longer could hold to the view—which I took to be essential to Christian faith—that God was active in the world, that he answered prayer, that he intervened on behalf of his faithful, that he brought salvation in the past and that in the future, eventually in the coming eschaton, he would set to rights all that was wrong, that he would vindicate his name and his people and bring in a good kingdom (either at our deaths or here on earth in a future utopian existence).
We live in a world in which a child dies every five seconds of starvation. Every five seconds. Every minute there are twenty-five people who die because they do not have clean water to drink. Every hour 700 people die of malaria. Where is God in all this? We live in a world in which earthquakes in the Himalayas kill 50,000 people and leave 3 million without shelter in the face of oncoming winter. We live in a world where a hurricane destroys New Orleans. Where a tsunami kills 300,000 people in one fell swoop. Where millions of children are born with horrible birth defects. And where is God? To say that he eventually will make right all that is wrong seems to me, now, to be pure wishful thinking.
As it turns out, my various wrestlings with the problem have led me, even as an agnostic, back to the Bible, to see how different biblical authors wrestle with this, the greatest of all human questions. The result is my recent book, God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question–Why We Suffer. My contention is that many of the authors of the Bible are wrestling with just this question: why do people (especially the people of God) suffer? The biblical answers are striking at times for their simplicity and power (suffering comes as a punishment from God for sin; suffering is a test of faith; suffering is created by cosmic powers aligned against God and his people; suffering is a huge mystery and we have no right to question why it happens; suffering is redemptive and is the means by which God brings salvation; and so on). Some of these answers are at odds with one another (is it God or his cosmic enemies who are creating havoc on earth?), yet many of them continue to inform religious thinkers today.
Read more at www.beliefnet.com...