A very simple question that seem to stumped both atheists and evolutionists alike.

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: edmc^2

Well, the answer “nobody knows" was already given so why do you keep asking?

Some also said that the universe might not have a beginning so that is yet another answer.

We know your history and know you would love to prove a create and I wish you luck with that but you are far from there.

What? Am I hiding? I don't have a history? You mean my threads are hidden? This is news to me. This is unbelievable.

Nah, I wasn't hiding, but the question was pointed towards atheists to see how you will answer the question.

But as expected, "Nobody knows - end of discussion" seems to be the default answer for most if not all atheists.

And the fascinating thing is, they offer themselves to be the arbiter of the truth even though the obvious is staring straight at them.

The finite emanates from the infinite.

And even if the universe is eternal, you have yet to sufficiently explain how that correlates with a God. How many gods have you diagnosed with eternal existence? How did you test them for it? Honestly, how does a god even prove it is eternal? That's a paradox. They could only prove it to themselves. Very Descartes.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: edmc^2

Who said you were hiding?

I said that some of us know your posting history and your positions.

It isn't "Nobody knows - end of discussion". It is "What can you prove?" then "You can't prove anything - end of discussion".

Sure. I can prove that it's not logical to say 'something to come from nothing'. But that something uncreated, always existing must be there for everything else to exist.

How's that for proof?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: edmc^2

Well, the answer “nobody knows" was already given so why do you keep asking?

Some also said that the universe might not have a beginning so that is yet another answer.

We know your history and know you would love to prove a create and I wish you luck with that but you are far from there.

What? Am I hiding? I don't have a history? You mean my threads are hidden? This is news to me. This is unbelievable.

Nah, I wasn't hiding, but the question was pointed towards atheists to see how you will answer the question.

But as expected, "Nobody knows - end of discussion" seems to be the default answer for most if not all atheists.

And the fascinating thing is, they offer themselves to be the arbiter of the truth even though the obvious is staring straight at them.

The finite emanates from the infinite.

And even if the universe is eternal, you have yet to sufficiently explain how that correlates with a God. How many gods have you diagnosed with eternal existence? How did you test them for it? Honestly, how does a god even prove it is eternal? That's a paradox. They could only prove it to themselves. Very Descartes.

Based on scientific evidence (CMB and others), the material universe had a beginning (13bya), hence not eternal. Where it came from, is eternal.

a reply to: edmc^2

You can of course prove that last bit right? With citations .

a reply to: edmc^2

We can only measure to a limited degree up until the big bang, with no ability to measure anything before that. What that means is before the big bang we have no idea of the state of the universe. Which means, it may have existed in another form, in fact as one idea it may all have been super condensed into the ultimate black hole that once it hit maximum tension exploded into the big bang we see today, eventually potentially once it hits some point in the unforeseen future coalescing all back into one super black hole and repeating it all once again.

You assume because we can only measure so far back that it means there was nothing before that. The universe may have had many infinite incarnations before now, there is, however, no way we could measure that, as those forms of the universe no longer exist in any measurable form as it has all been reformed into the universe we live in today.

What we can do, however, is measure things like black holes and the rate of expansion of the universe for signs that might indicate an eventual collapse.

originally posted by: edmc^2
Sure. I can prove that it's not logical to say 'something to come from nothing'. But that something uncreated, always existing must be there for everything else to exist.

How's that for proof?

No, you can't because you can't show if that is how things work. You don't have any actual proof behind it, just a logical argument, which isn't the same.

a reply to: craterman

Id reply to your prove it post but Barcs did a good job at the top of the previous page no need to repeat whats already been said.

a reply to: edmc^2

Are you asserting that 'Something cannot come from nothing'?

If so can you prove it? Have humans found a nothing that can be evaluated and tested?

Yes its probably true but to assert its true is the same fallacy carterman uses.

It appears that way given everything we know is something coming from something, but until we have a nothing to evaluate and test, we do not know that something can or cannot infact come nothing.

To assert either way is an ignorance fallacy.

Best answer.... i dont know.

...
Side note. Wasnt the big bang theory created by a Christian?

Coomba98

a reply to: edmc^2

So as you are saying something can not come from nothing. Then your deity can not have come from nothing either. Something created him. Otherwise the argument is logically flawed and hypocritical. You could not be doing either of those right ?

a reply to: Noinden

If I understand correctly, the claim is that the deity is not "something" because he is outside the universe. It's different so those rules don't apply.

a reply to: daskakik

Well Deists would say the deity created everything, then buggered off to watch from the outside.

However, there is a great deal of avoidance of reality when that is the argument.

a reply to: Noinden

Not to mention that if said deity were able to physically interact with the visible universe that we inhabit as nearly every theological belief system believe occurred, then there would be some sort of evidence of that deity's interactions with us.

a reply to: peter vlar

Indeed they could be quantified These creationist types claim we can see the evidence, but never put measurement to it

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: edmc^2

We can only measure to a limited degree up until the big bang, with no ability to measure anything before that. What that means is before the big bang we have no idea of the state of the universe. Which means, it may have existed in another form, in fact as one idea it may all have been super condensed into the ultimate black hole that once it hit maximum tension exploded into the big bang we see today, eventually potentially once it hits some point in the unforeseen future coalescing all back into one super black hole and repeating it all once again.

You assume because we can only measure so far back that it means there was nothing before that. The universe may have had many infinite incarnations before now, there is, however, no way we could measure that, as those forms of the universe no longer exist in any measurable form as it has all been reformed into the universe we live in today.

What we can do, however, is measure things like black holes and the rate of expansion of the universe for signs that might indicate an eventual collapse.

Appreciate your input Puppylove. Like Phantom, you've given much thought to this subject.

Any idea why or how our 'brains" - minds to others - able to travel space-time without moving?

It can fathom the depths of the universe. Any idea why?

Any way to measure the distance it travels from here to there?

I'll leave these thoughts for now and be back soon.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: peter vlar

Indeed they could be quantified

These creationist types claim we can see the evidence, but never put measurement to it

It's very convenient that all of these magical interactions with mere mortals have zero first hand accounts of the interactions in question.

I also find it a bit odd in my mind that an omniscient and omnipotent entity who by all accounts, has a personal stake and obsession with the humans of a very small geographical area stretching from the Fertile Crescent to the Nile with a primary focus on the Levant, yet it hasn't reared it's head in over 2 millennia despite multiple alleged personal interactions in the late Bronze Age.

It is still just a theory.

a reply to: Phantom423

Okay, I believe God.

a reply to: Phantom423

a reply to: craterman

"Believe" being the operative word... not fact, not proof, just misplaced hope that an all powerful father figure guides and micro-manages your life and all life, tinkering with the slow change of species, rather than an honest evidence based approach to self determination.

Why would god need to tinker... did he not create the universe "perfect" to begin with?

originally posted by: craterman
It is still just a theory.

a reply to: Phantom423

What exactly does that mean "It's just a theory"? Please explain.

Big bang is a theory.

a reply to: Phantom423

God does not micromanage. He gave free will.

a reply to: puzzlesphere