Dear Scotland,

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: HeathenJessie

Believing that the UK leaving the EU is a major change and that justifies a new independence referendum is not a contradiction. That has been my position throughout the thread, how am i contradicting myself???

Show me where i have said anything different?

If you think i am being off topic then please feel free to alert a mod. I am sure they will amused by your belief that you can decide what people say on ATS.

You really are something else.

You...YOU were the one who said it wasn't about the EU. So if it has nothing to do with the EU then why is Brexit a valid grounds for referendum? If the EU isn't important, and Brexit has nothing to do with it, then the UK leaving the EU isn't such a major change, is it?

Besides...the people of the UK voted for it...you talk as though it was forced upon us...we voted for it you idiot.

So it isn't about the EU, except when it comes to using it as an excuse for your petty referendum.

I fully agree with your standpoint and your opinion. After the recent US election my father quoted the old adage about a country getting the government it deserves. Voter apathy is one of the reasons we are where we are in the UK.
a reply to: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

What other reasons do you have?

There's the financial aspect of it, for example In an independent Scotland, tax due on all sales or profits generated in Scotland would be paid to the Scottish Treasury. The 50p V.A.T on Toilet Duck, from Morrisons supermarket, is an additional 50p that would go to the Scottish budget, over and above the official statistics currently being bandied about by the UK Treasury. The 50p would no longer be tax income originating from a head office in London. It would be tax income originating from the company’s offices in Scotland. When you add all the non-food (i.e eligible for V.A.T) items we buy weekly up, that's a fair amount of money.

There's the fact that we very rarely get a Government we voted for, take the latest Tory government for axample, they got 434,097 in Scotland in the 2015 General Election (which is nothing, in contrast Labour got 707,147, SNP 1,454,436) yet we get them anyway, Scotland has always voted differently from the rest of the UK, this was a massive decider in my choice to support Independence.

Also, being independent is the only way we will ever be able to deal with Scotland's social problems, health problems and the divide between rich and poor (which is higher in Scotland than the rest of the UK). I think it's only fair Scotland's future should be decided by Scotland, not Westminster...

Double post...

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: HeathenJessie

Believing that the UK leaving the EU is a major change and that justifies a new independence referendum is not a contradiction. That has been my position throughout the thread, how am i contradicting myself???

Show me where i have said anything different?

If you think i am being off topic then please feel free to alert a mod. I am sure they will amused by your belief that you can decide what people say on ATS.

You really are something else.

You...YOU were the one who said it wasn't about the EU. So if it has nothing to do with the EU then why is Brexit a valid grounds for referendum? If the EU isn't important, and Brexit has nothing to do with it, then the UK leaving the EU isn't such a major change, is it?

Besides...the people of the UK voted for it...you talk as though it was forced upon us...we voted for it you idiot.

So it isn't about the EU, except when it comes to using it as an excuse for your petty referendum.

I have said throughout the entire thread that changing circumstances of the EU are the justification for the referendum.

Show were i have said different. It's really easy just reply to that post keeping my text in

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot


This seems pretty clear cut to me, Scotland had a referendum they voted to stay part of the UK, the UK had a referendum they voted to leave the EU, the UK is leaving the EU based on the result of that referendum there isn't a second vote the same should apply to the Scottish indyref.

septicscot doesn't care...voted in the EU referendum as a Scot, answered the wrong question, not realising the question was about the UK and not Scotland as a single entity.

The ultimate irony...the majorty Scots who voted in the EU ref should have their votes completely invalidated as they didn't asnwer the question legitimately, they answered their own version of that question...

Should Scotland remain part of the EU.

You can't even answer that simple question properly, had no place voting n any referendum. You don't define the question, it comes pre-defined, you simply answer it...a simple yes or no and you still made a complete mess of it.

You seem to have failed to read or understand my earlier reply. Where i have i said that Scotland should have had a separate vote on leaving the EU?

No...you fail to understand the simple point I made.

This is the question that a lot of Scots apparently did answer then they voted in the EU referendum...I thought I'd made that perfectly clear.

Yours was a UK vote, not a Scottish vote.

So why fixate on how many Scots voted to remain in the EU when it was a UK wide vote?

You're the one saying that...you and many other Scots apparently did not fully understand the question.

Stop looking at it from a Scottish persective and I'll stop making legitimate points like that.

No you seem to be the one fixating on the EU referendum.

My point is that as we are leaving the EU circumstances have changed since the last independence referendum.

Since you insist, and will continue to do so...

Read the above - me fixate? You're something else....

The above statement made by YOU implies that yhe EU has little or nothing to do with it, you accused me of fixating on it.

Which would imply that you believe it to be irrelevant.

So based on that I think it's safe to assume that you think the EU is of little or no relevance in this debate.

Therefore, by your very own standards, it's not a valid excuse for a referendum, not is it deemed significant enough, by you.

Can you stop focusing on it now? You got what you wanted...you'll have to find some other meaningless crap to fixate on and distract us from the real debate here.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot


This seems pretty clear cut to me, Scotland had a referendum they voted to stay part of the UK, the UK had a referendum they voted to leave the EU, the UK is leaving the EU based on the result of that referendum there isn't a second vote the same should apply to the Scottish indyref.

septicscot doesn't care...voted in the EU referendum as a Scot, answered the wrong question, not realising the question was about the UK and not Scotland as a single entity.

The ultimate irony...the majorty Scots who voted in the EU ref should have their votes completely invalidated as they didn't asnwer the question legitimately, they answered their own version of that question...

Should Scotland remain part of the EU.

You can't even answer that simple question properly, had no place voting n any referendum. You don't define the question, it comes pre-defined, you simply answer it...a simple yes or no and you still made a complete mess of it.

You seem to have failed to read or understand my earlier reply. Where i have i said that Scotland should have had a separate vote on leaving the EU?

No...you fail to understand the simple point I made.

This is the question that a lot of Scots apparently did answer then they voted in the EU referendum...I thought I'd made that perfectly clear.

Yours was a UK vote, not a Scottish vote.

So why fixate on how many Scots voted to remain in the EU when it was a UK wide vote?

You're the one saying that...you and many other Scots apparently did not fully understand the question.

Stop looking at it from a Scottish persective and I'll stop making legitimate points like that.

No you seem to be the one fixating on the EU referendum.

My point is that as we are leaving the EU circumstances have changed since the last independence referendum.

Since you insist, and will continue to do so...

Read the above - me fixate? You're something else....

The above statement made by YOU implies that yhe EU has little or nothing to do with it, you accused me of fixating on it.

Which would imply that you believe it to be irrelevant.

So based on that I think it's safe to assume that you think the EU is of little or no relevance in this debate.

Therefore, by your very own standards, it's not a valid excuse for a referendum, not is it deemed significant enough, by you.

Can you stop focusing on it now? You got what you wanted...you'll have to find some other meaningless crap to fixate on and distract us from the real debate here.

That post is me saying that leaving the EU is the justification for a new referendum.

It's actually in the quoted text.

What are you on about?

originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

What other reasons do you have?

There's the financial aspect of it, for example In an independent Scotland, tax due on all sales or profits generated in Scotland would be paid to the Scottish Treasury. The 50p V.A.T on Toilet Duck, from Morrisons supermarket, is an additional 50p that would go to the Scottish budget, over and above the official statistics currently being bandied about by the UK Treasury. The 50p would no longer be tax income originating from a head office in London. It would be tax income originating from the company’s offices in Scotland. When you add all the non-food (i.e eligible for V.A.T) items we buy weekly up, that's a fair amount of money.

There's the fact that we very rarely get a Government we voted for, take the latest Tory government for axample, they got 434,097 in Scotland in the 2015 General Election (which is nothing, in contrast Labour got 707,147, SNP 1,454,436) yet we get them anyway, Scotland has always voted differently from the rest of the UK, this was a massive decider in my choice to support Independence.

Also, being independent is the only way we will ever be able to deal with Scotland's social problems, health problems and the divide between rich and poor (which is higher in Scotland than the rest of the UK). I think it's only fair Scotland's future should be decided by Scotland, not Westminster...

So it's not about patriotism but you speak about a Scottish budget?

Why separate budgets for nations that are supposedly part of a union?

You speak of dealing with Scotlands social problems...what about the rest of the UK, are they problem free?

Patriotism isn't just about waving a saltire and cheering on a football team, it's in everything you say and do. You don't think or speak from the persepctive of someone who is part of a bigger nation or union. You self-identify as a Scot, you're inherently patriotic.

originally posted by: CulturalResilience

I spent a lot of last week talking with a young guy from Glasgow who was on the same course
as me. He more a less said the exact thing as you have posted word for word. He said the vast majority of Scots are sick and tired of Sturgeon and want the Scottish parliament, that they once had such high hopes for, to fix the much more serious public services problems that Scotland faces.

I can only repeat what he told me, he also said that Scottish Labour is a spent force, and he was expecting considerable gains for the Conservatives in Scotland.

I said something very similar to that in an earlier post about the ordinary

Scotsperson not wanting anymore referendums.


But ScepticScot was of the opinion that Mr/s 'ordinary Scott' was of

little importance.... Lol!!

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot


This seems pretty clear cut to me, Scotland had a referendum they voted to stay part of the UK, the UK had a referendum they voted to leave the EU, the UK is leaving the EU based on the result of that referendum there isn't a second vote the same should apply to the Scottish indyref.

septicscot doesn't care...voted in the EU referendum as a Scot, answered the wrong question, not realising the question was about the UK and not Scotland as a single entity.

The ultimate irony...the majorty Scots who voted in the EU ref should have their votes completely invalidated as they didn't asnwer the question legitimately, they answered their own version of that question...

Should Scotland remain part of the EU.

You can't even answer that simple question properly, had no place voting n any referendum. You don't define the question, it comes pre-defined, you simply answer it...a simple yes or no and you still made a complete mess of it.

You seem to have failed to read or understand my earlier reply. Where i have i said that Scotland should have had a separate vote on leaving the EU?

No...you fail to understand the simple point I made.

This is the question that a lot of Scots apparently did answer then they voted in the EU referendum...I thought I'd made that perfectly clear.

Yours was a UK vote, not a Scottish vote.

So why fixate on how many Scots voted to remain in the EU when it was a UK wide vote?

You're the one saying that...you and many other Scots apparently did not fully understand the question.

Stop looking at it from a Scottish persective and I'll stop making legitimate points like that.

No you seem to be the one fixating on the EU referendum.

My point is that as we are leaving the EU circumstances have changed since the last independence referendum.

Since you insist, and will continue to do so...

Read the above - me fixate? You're something else....

The above statement made by YOU implies that yhe EU has little or nothing to do with it, you accused me of fixating on it.

Which would imply that you believe it to be irrelevant.

So based on that I think it's safe to assume that you think the EU is of little or no relevance in this debate.

Therefore, by your very own standards, it's not a valid excuse for a referendum, not is it deemed significant enough, by you.

Can you stop focusing on it now? You got what you wanted...you'll have to find some other meaningless crap to fixate on and distract us from the real debate here.

That post is me saying that leaving the EU is the justification for a new referendum.

It's actually in the quoted text.

What are you on about?

Exactly...so how can you even take part in this debate without the EU playing a huge part in the argument?

It's almost impossible to take part in this discussion without the EU featuring heavily in the argument.

you really are an idiot. It's people like you who make me ashamed of Scotland...people like you make me bigoted against my own nation.

Hilarious. Yes, yes you most certainly have contradicted yourself and you just re-enforced that contradiction.

This is a total waste of time, be here all day chasing our tails. I hope you get your ref.

I'm out.

originally posted by: EasyPleaseMe
shouldn't finances be worked out before a vote and the population informed? As a whole GB can leave the EU but how would an independant Scotland get on without GB buffering the finances? And without a good credit rating with the IMF?

Is the desire for independance more about sticking it to the tories? It's not just the Scottish that have disdain for them...

Yes, we should have the whole picture about what Brexit actually means for the whole of the UK before we get a chance to decide what we actually want to do, that's why Sturgeon has gone for the timescale she did, by then Brexit negtiations will be finalised, we'll know what it actually means (even if it is that there's no deal and we're being flung out regardless) and the people of Scotland can make an informed choice).

If we were remaining in the EU there would be no talk from Sturgeon of another referendum.

originally posted by: djz3ro
Not likely, that's just what they want us to believe...

The people of Greece and Italy might want you to believe that.

a reply to: djz3ro

I replied your post last page , from what I see you just Id'd a very recent major change in the political landscape of Europe .

That the EPP have apparently no influence on this country , and we have , apparently , no influence inside their organisation anymore .

Officially speaking that seems to be the case here , that EPP have been snubbed away, perhaps deservingly , as becasue they are official arbitrators which are way way removed from anything resembling democracy anymore .
Its why you get Merkel Junker Tusk , and the rest of the possibly fascist planners in Europe in complete union against Brexit , its why you get plants like Sturgeon infesting Scotland through the SNP . Wake up and smell the English roses they got you out of it too .

Same goes for France : you follow : no one in Europe needs a 'project' run by such a small number , the EPP is a common ill of every country here . They didn't get an army quite yet , but there is probably all sorts up their slieves .

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: HeathenJessie

The violence threatened by the loyalists showed me that independence would have torn Scotland apart.

You didn't see it coming down the pike.? The violent outburst was organised through Rangers fc minded forums. The Vast majority were from that place of much Britanic staunchness, Bridgeton, The RFC Forums were in meltdown at the time believing they were about to lose their grip on the Empire. Unfortunately the Police thought they were bluffing or maybe those higher up in the force wanted something to happen.

The end of the day the police were absolute #e in containing it, But what really happened.? Lets look at the facts.

Some people got slapped about, wee lassies got flags ripped from them and Fat balding tattoed middle aged bigots nearly gave themselves a heart attack defending their Unionist ways...no-one died. It was what it was, a minor dust up once again caused by the herrenvolk. Nothing new for west central Scotland

The Violence threatened and perpetrated by the loyalist on the evening after the referendum only strengthened my resolve to gain our independence as see the loyalist scum pushed into the sea. They are what they are, A minority still living in the year of our lord 1690.

a reply to: EvanB

A lot of us Scots can see Nicola Sturgeon for what she is, fact is she cannot even take care of her of constituency of Govanhill.

That being said, i cant see how we will be stronger together after Brexit never mind that a significant percentage of our population do not wish for Brexit to take place and hate the fact that Westminster meddles in our affairs.

Fact of the matter is i don't want Theresa May to rule over us anymore than i wish Nicola Sturgeon to be First Minister but Independence is far more preferable than Westminster ruling from 100s of miles away.

With love to you also a Scots Man that just wishes to see an independent nation ruled by its own people.

a reply to: HeathenJessie

England can't run away from their government and start again, they only have two options, revolt or reform.

Neither of those options are ever going to happen and that is really down to the English people and no one else. I say that because of the population size comparison. It is your government really and Scotland leaving might have led to real reform at Westminster...a bit pie in the sky I suppose as people like their institutions.
So because you can't run away we have to stay? Whatever happened to 'go brother save yourself'?

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot


This seems pretty clear cut to me, Scotland had a referendum they voted to stay part of the UK, the UK had a referendum they voted to leave the EU, the UK is leaving the EU based on the result of that referendum there isn't a second vote the same should apply to the Scottish indyref.

septicscot doesn't care...voted in the EU referendum as a Scot, answered the wrong question, not realising the question was about the UK and not Scotland as a single entity.

The ultimate irony...the majorty Scots who voted in the EU ref should have their votes completely invalidated as they didn't asnwer the question legitimately, they answered their own version of that question...

Should Scotland remain part of the EU.

You can't even answer that simple question properly, had no place voting n any referendum. You don't define the question, it comes pre-defined, you simply answer it...a simple yes or no and you still made a complete mess of it.

You seem to have failed to read or understand my earlier reply. Where i have i said that Scotland should have had a separate vote on leaving the EU?

No...you fail to understand the simple point I made.

This is the question that a lot of Scots apparently did answer then they voted in the EU referendum...I thought I'd made that perfectly clear.

Yours was a UK vote, not a Scottish vote.

So why fixate on how many Scots voted to remain in the EU when it was a UK wide vote?

You're the one saying that...you and many other Scots apparently did not fully understand the question.

Stop looking at it from a Scottish persective and I'll stop making legitimate points like that.

No you seem to be the one fixating on the EU referendum.

My point is that as we are leaving the EU circumstances have changed since the last independence referendum.

Since you insist, and will continue to do so...

Read the above - me fixate? You're something else....

The above statement made by YOU implies that yhe EU has little or nothing to do with it, you accused me of fixating on it.

Which would imply that you believe it to be irrelevant.

So based on that I think it's safe to assume that you think the EU is of little or no relevance in this debate.

Therefore, by your very own standards, it's not a valid excuse for a referendum, not is it deemed significant enough, by you.

Can you stop focusing on it now? You got what you wanted...you'll have to find some other meaningless crap to fixate on and distract us from the real debate here.

That post is me saying that leaving the EU is the justification for a new referendum.

It's actually in the quoted text.

What are you on about?

Exactly...so how can you even take part in this debate without the EU playing a huge part in the argument?

It's almost impossible to take part in this discussion without the EU featuring heavily in the argument.

you really are an idiot. It's people like you who make me ashamed of Scotland...people like you make me bigoted against my own nation.

Hilarious. Yes, yes you most certainly have contradicted yourself and you just re-enforced that contradiction.

This is a total waste of time, be here all day chasing our tails. I hope you get your ref.

I'm out.

I have said all along leaving the EU is justification for a new referendum.

You say i am contradicting myself and offer as proof a post where i explicitly say that leaving the EU is justification for another referendum.

And that makes me an idiot?

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Can't disagree Solo...hey can you imagine the outrage if we had a vote on the monarchy?

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
I spent a lot of last week talking with a young guy from Glasgow who was on the same course as me. He more a less said the exact thing as you have posted word for word. He said the vast majority of Scots are sick and tired of Sturgeon and want the Scottish parliament, that they once had such high hopes for, to fix the much more serious public services problems that Scotland faces.

Things are as close now as they were during the last Referendum, the thing is people tend to be friends with people who are like themselves, I know a helluva lot of people and only a handful voted No, his social networks are likely full with people like him and only knows a handful who voted Yes.

Either way it's a misnomer to say that "the vast majority of Scots are sick and tired of Sturgeon" as much as it would be to say that the vast majority of Scots are sick and tired of being in the UK. I don't think anyone can make up their mind what they want until we know what the Brexit deal is (or isn't).

There is a chance that even I could be convinced Brexit will be good for all of the UK, I dont think a Tory PM will be able to do that though...

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

Ok...so what about the rest of the UK...do they deserve to live with the corruption that you want to get away from?

Isn't Scotland packing up and running away kinda cowardly?

Scotland rarely has an effect on the General Election outcome, how the hell would we go about making Westminster accountable for stopping corruption UK wide? We'd stand more chance of going independent and sorting out our own yard first...

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Can't disagree Solo...hey can you imagine the outrage if we had a vote on the monarchy?

I have no beef to grind with the Monarchy. I would like to see them live within their means mind though.