Hebrews11;- Draw near with faith

The epistle to the Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians, perhaps to a specific Jewish church.
The message of the letter is that Christ has brought “completeness”.
That is, God is making available, through him, a much greater and more decisive revelation than anything they have received from him previously
This argument comes to a climax in the tenth chapter, where the writer shows that the self-offering of Christ has brought forgiveness of sin.
He has “entered the heavenly sanctuary” on our behalf.

This case has been made for a reason.
The writer wants to evoke a response in his readers.

The key word is “confidence”.
Christ has entered the sanctuary like the priests under the old covenant.
Yet we are not required to wait for him outside, like the worshippers of the old covenant.
On the contrary, we may follow him in.
We now have that freedom to enter the presence of God.
We enter under the same conditions that he entered himself, using the route that he pioneered for us.
That is, we come under the authority of “the blood of Jesus”, namely the self-offering which he made.
Putting it another way, we pass through the obstructing veil along the path of “his flesh”, viz. the fact that he lived and died in our own human form.
We can have this boldness because our sins have been forgiven. They are no longer an obstacle that keeps us away from God.
It is only necessary that we have “a true heart in full assurance of faith”.
Our bodies have been washed in baptism, as a symbol that our consciences have also been cleansed (ch10 vv19-22).

It is important, then, that we should not waver in our commitment.
This warning was probably necessary for his expected readers.
They appear to have been Jews who had accepted the message of the gospel.
As time passed, and Christ did not return, they may well have been tempted to revert to pre-Christian Judaism.
So he urges them to hold onto their faith, because the God who made the promise in Christ is faithful himself.
They should also encourage one another to do the same thing.
“Neglecting to meet together” is not just about failing to come to meetings of the church. It refers to the danger of abandoning the Christian commitment altogether.
They have all the more reason for holding on, because “you see the Day drawing near”. They will not have to wait indefinitely (vv23-25).

The writer then gives them a serious warning.
If we “sin deliberately” after receiving knowledge of the truth (about Christ), then the prospect of forgiveness, through the offering which he made, is replaced by the prospect of judgement (vv26-27).
Nothing else can be expected by the man who has “spurned the Son of God”.
At first glance, this looks like a declaration that deliberate sin is tantamount to rejection of Christ.
In fact, in the context of this letter, the message is the other way round; rejection of Christ is tantamount to deliberate sin.
The background assumption is that we have a choice between living in the world of sin, which leads us into judgement, or living under Christ, who saves us from that judgement.
If we reject Christ, after coming to know him, we fall back into the default option, the world of sin.
The “fearful prospect” of judgement follows from that reason alone.

But the writer suggests that a man who rejects Christ, after coming to know him, has all the more reason to expect punishment.
He has, in effect, shown contempt for the Son of God.
He has taken something holy, namely “the blood which sanctified him”, and treated it as a profane thing.
He has outraged the Holy Spirit, which brought him God’s grace.
In short, he has broken away from God all over again.
Does he not think God will be angry at this?
“It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (vv28-31).

After that, the writer changes his tone again, and pleads with them in a more encouraging way.
They should remember what they did for the faith in the early days of their commitment.
They were ready to suffer at the hands of the persecutors, and find common cause with other persecuted Christians.
They may have lost their worldly goods to confiscation, but they knew they had a better and longer-lasting property in their Christian hope.
Having come this far on the journey of faith, why throw it all away now? (vv32-35).

Let them rather remain firm in the faith, both for the sake of doing the will of God, and for the sake of gaining what he has promised.

The writer caps his argument with words taken from the Old Testament.
The promise of “only a little while” is taken from Isaiah, where the prophet calls upon God’s people to hide themselves and wait out the time of God’s wrath.
Three further statements are drawn from the teaching of Habakkuk, where the prophet’s theme is that the destruction of God’s enemies will be followed by the revelation of his glory.
There is the promise that “the coming one” (that is, the returning Christ) will not tarry.
There is the promise that the man who is righteous will have life, by means of his faith.
While, conversely, the man who “shrinks back” cannot be approved in God’s eyes.

He closes by stating his confidence that he and his readers will be not be counted among those who shrink back.
They will, instead, be amongst those who preserve their faith and their lives.

Jewish Christians do not exist, and never will.

No Christians existed at that time so, no.

And lastly whatever it is that is "returning" does so at its own peril, the ones that need to be are more than ready to do away with it, and cleanse the Universe.

a reply to: ParasuvO
Jewish Christians certainly did exist at that time. The "twelve apostles" were Jews by birth and upbringing, and they were Christians after the Resurrection. Paul was a Jewish Christian. All the first converts in Jerusalem were Jews- the story of Peter and Cornelius in Acts ch10 marks the moment when Gentiles began to be accepted. The church in Jerusalem was probably a church of Jews rather than Gentiles- Jews who believed in Christ- that is, Jewish Christians.
So I don't know on what basis you are making those denials. History disagrees with you.

Genesis 10

31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues,

Genesis 11

11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First the Bible indicates they each had their own tongue or language, then in the next chapter the Bible indicates that at Tower of Babel the whole worlds spoke one language. Not to mention that the Most High god confused their languages for building the Tower of Babel

They committed an ARCHITECTUAL sin.

Architecture is a sin.

a reply to: Miracula2
That comment appears to have no connection with the topic of this thread. You may have been intending to post in a different thread altogether.

But God is the same yesterday, today, and forever according to the Bible God is unchanging in the application of laws. How come when people express pride and built the Empire State building, the Eiffel Tower, and now the Burj Khalifa (which is now the tallest building in the world), why does God not confuse their languages?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Miracula2
That comment appears to have no connection with the topic of this thread. You may have been intending to post in a different thread altogether.

Yes it applies. In order to apply faith, God must be consistent and his word must not contradict itself in order to maintain faith.

God undermines his people's faith with an inconsistent book which cannot agree whether or not people had more than one tongue before and after the Tower of Babel scattering of languages.

a reply to: Miracula2
The topic of this thread is the content of Hebrews ch10, as described in the opening post.
My standing policy is that I will not be drawn off-topic.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Miracula2
The topic of this thread is the content of Hebrews ch10, as described in the opening post.
My standing policy is that I will not be drawn off-topic.

In other words you don't want to admit that the Bible undermines faith in a Higher Power with standing contradictions that occur in the same Old Testament you quoted.

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.

Description of souls in the underworld coming back to life (rebirth). Others delaying for a better age to transmigrate. Today, everyone in baptism (first resurrection). Job 19. With his own eyes and not another.

a reply to: DayAfterTomorrow
That's the next chapter. This is the eleventh thread in the series, dealing with a portion of the tenth chapter.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: DayAfterTomorrow
That's the next chapter. This is the eleventh thread in the series, dealing with a portion of the tenth chapter.

I see.

a reply to: DayAfterTomorrow
What I mean is that this thread is about chapter 10. As outlined in the opening post. That's how one discovers the topic of a thread, by reading the opening post.
As I told you in my first response, "Hebrews11" refers to the eleventh thread in the series, not the eleventh chapter.

Did you know, that know one really knew who Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were? except they wrote parts that are in the Bible and weren't around when Jesus lived or anything about his personal life... Only had stories that may have been made up.

It's all crap.

Soz got a bit off topic.

a reply to: DISRAELI

The writer then gives them a serious warning.
If we “sin deliberately” after receiving knowledge of the truth (about Christ), then the prospect of forgiveness, through the offering which he made, is replaced by the prospect of judgement (vv26-27).

Nothing else can be expected by the man who has “spurned the Son of God”.

At first glance, this looks like a declaration that deliberate sin is tantamount to rejection of Christ.
In fact, in the context of this letter, the message is the other way round; rejection of Christ is tantamount to deliberate sin.

The background assumption is that we have a choice between living in the world of sin, which leads us into judgement, or living under Christ, who saves us from that judgement.

If we reject Christ, after coming to know him, we fall back into the default option, the world of sin.
The “fearful prospect” of judgement follows from that reason alone.

I disagree with you.

Obedience is not impossible. The concept of "Original Sin" places Satan as a higher authority in one's life than the Holy Spirit.

By claiming to be a follower of Jesus one is claiming to follow the Holy Spirit who is an internal guide. If the Spirit of the One who overcame Sin/Satan lives in you and guides you than you too should be able to overcome Sin/Satan.

It is not impossible to follow the 10 commandments. Anyone who claims to be a follower of Jesus Christ but deliberately continues to sin, tramples the perfection of Chrsit under foot and should expect judgment.

To have known the Holy Spirit within you but to turn back to deliberate sin is to forsake the Holy Spirit. Why would anyone believe that they could escape judgement after knowing the Holy Spirit then returning to Sin/Satan?

Almost no one actually falls into this category. No one that believes in "Original Sin" has truly accepted that the One who overcame Sin/Satan and can guide them down the loving and virtuous path that eliminates Sin/Satan from your life.

You must first believe in the narrow path to perfection before you can truly obey the Holy Spirit who is himself the narrow path to perfection.

There are many verses that plainly state followers of Jesus do not continue to intentionally sin. There is no justification for intentional sin for anyone who claims perfection lives within and guides them.

1 John 3:6-10 - No one who abides in him keeps on sininning, no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Hebrews 10:26-27 - For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

1 John 5:18 - We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.

Romans 6:6 - We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Romans 3:31 - Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Romans 6 - What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?  2 By no means! We are those who have died to
sin; how can we live in it any longer? ....

10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness

17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

The concept of "Original Sin"; is of the devil. The concept of righteousness which is obedience to the Holy Spirit is of Chrsit.

Those who teach and believe in "Original Sin"; remain slaves to sin and do not know the righteousness that comes from faith in the perfection that lives within.

1 John 2:3-6 - And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar.

Matthew 7:21 - “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

edit on 18-3-2017 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)

a reply to: Isurrender73

I think your reasoning is logical and sound in this case.

The path should be followed and religious ideas are no excuse for deviation from the golden rule. Never was, is not, never will be.

reply to: Isurrender73

I think you failed to spot THIS paragraph in the section that you quoted;

At first glance, this looks like a declaration that deliberate sin is tantamount to rejection of Christ.
In fact, in the context of this letter, the message is the other way round; rejection of Christ is tantamount to deliberate sin.

The passage in Hebrews which I'm following is not discussing sinning in general. It is discussing the specific fault of turning away from Christ and rejecting him.

I disagree with you.

Please note that I am paraphrasing Hebrews. To the extent that you disagree with what I said (as distinct from disagreeing with what you think I said), you may be disagreeing with Hebrews.

Obedience is not impossible

Yes, the theme of obedience runs through the New Testament, alongside the theme of Faith.
But it is important to understand the relationship between them. The key point is that Faith comes first in order of time. This is the case whether we are looking at the words of Jesus, the words of Paul, the words of Hebrews (for which, see the next chapter), or even the words of James. Faith comes first, obedience follows on as the effect of faith.

There are many verses that plainly state followers of Jesus do not continue to intentionally sin.

Indeed.
And they demonstrate the point I have just made, obout obedience and avoidance of sin as the effect of Faith.

And bear in mind that when this writer warns his readers of the danger of rejecting Christ, he is concerned about the real possibility that they might abandon faith in Christ and return to their original Judaism.
Which may have been exactly what happened, in the long term, to the original church of Jerusalem.
If this outcome occurred historically, that rather nullifies any abstract theory claiming that it's impossible.
However, you may be right in saying that nobody who truly understands what Christ has done can desert him.
And THAT is why the writer of Hebrews is putting so much effort into explaining to his readers what Christ has done.

a reply to: DISRAELI

You assume that believing in Paul push for faith in his words equals Spiritual knowledge and awareness.

Yeshua did fall to teach on this level and for that he should be praised.

Paul screwed the message up to create and faith->saved idea instead of following Yeshua:s seek awareness and find answers (seek and you shall find), maybe even anointment to understand the golden rule on a level where you do not make mistakes.

Faith in Paul:s religion do not create knowledge on correct behavior by the golden rule.
Awareness creates knowledge on correct behavior by the golden rule.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
You assume that believing in Paul push for faith in his words equals Spiritual knowledge and awareness.

This is not about the teaching of Paul. We are discussing the epistle to the Hebrews, which was written by another author.
The importance of Faith fills every part of the New Testament, including the teaching of Jesus. It is the basic teaching of the whole church of the time, not the invention of one person.
I am not here to discuss whether the New Testament is right. I am only here to describe what it says.

originally posted by: Miracula2

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Miracula2
That comment appears to have no connection with the topic of this thread. You may have been intending to post in a different thread altogether.

Yes it applies. In order to apply faith, God must be consistent and his word must not contradict itself in order to maintain faith.

God undermines his people's faith with an inconsistent book which cannot agree whether or not people had more than one tongue before and after the Tower of Babel scattering of languages.

The bible has faults, really, who,would have thunk that
Really who cares, my faith in Jesus, not a book

So so,some made a printing error, got the story wrong, crucify them hey?

I get the feeling you don't believe in the bible, funnily enough I do and yes it has errors, not many but a few
I believe in the bible and I don't care about a few errors, you don't and you seem to care a lot, seems you have some serious issues there fella

My faith is in Jesus, not a book